Travelled using Southern All-Network Downlander and charged to use Gatwick Express

[John @ home]

I think that if the point is pushed in the future the most likely outcome is that these ticket types both of which are classified as special offers will be withdrawn.

I think a far more likely outcome would be that in future it would be made clear that "Express" services between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport were excluded from the offer, and that would appear on the ticket.

 

[paul1609]

I think that its likely that Daysave which is printed as a day rover will become Not Gatwick Express.
I think that its likely that Downlander will be withdrawn at the end of the summer season there is already confusion over which bus services are included since Eastbourne Buses became part of Stagecoach. You'll notice there was no price change this year and that the product doesnt have an evening peak exclusion from London.Look for a Southdowns plusbusish ticket I reckon.

 

[The Colonel]

Im of the opinion that the Downlander and Daysave tickets were never intended to be valid on Gatwick Express services.

I wrote and asked Southern about a year ago and they advised me the tickets are only valid south of Gatwick on GEx workings.

 

[yorkie]

I wrote and asked Southern about a year ago and they advised me the tickets are only valid south of Gatwick on GEx workings.

Then they need to print that restriction "on the ticket". If they cannot manage to do that they cannot enforce it.

 

[First class]

Which copy of the Byelaws are you looking at?

The copy on the DfT website says
A full list of licenses can be found on the ORR website, and no company with the name "Gatwick" holds a license.

The DfT online copy of the Byelaws.


http://www2.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/regs/railwaysbyelaws.pdf

Gatwick Express Ltd
(But list is seemingly out of date)

 

[AlterEgo]

Gatwick Express is no more a TOC than Silverlink "Metro" was.

It is not a separate legal entity - it is a branding exercise.

 

[Drsatan]

Im of the opinion that the Downlander and Daysave tickets were never intended to be valid on Gatwick Express services.However Southern have failed to make this clear when the two franchises merged and I think the OP should be refunded.
Unfortunately I think that if the point is pushed in the future the most likely outcome is that these ticket types both of which are classified as special offers will be withdrawn. They are both hangovers from the original Southern Franchise which was innovative and bold. Both tickets have also extended to Tonbridge and Milton Keynes Central as the franchise has expanded I for one would miss them.

Yes, the Downlander ticket I feel is a very good offer, since its price is lower than the price of some conventional tickets Southern sell. My Dad told me he might buy one to travel to London from Southampton Central on Southern's service via the Arun Valley since it's cheaper than an off-peak day return valid via Basingstoke and Woking! Although as you've suggested, both will probably be withdrawn since Go-ahead will demand extra revenue from its rail franchises.

I wrote and asked Southern about a year ago and they advised me the tickets are only valid south of Gatwick on GEx workings.

Again, that should be publicised on all publicity about Daysave and Downlander tickets. However, the map showing the validity of Downlander tickets clearly indicates 'Gatwick Express' services, implying that those tickets are valid on Gatwick Express services.

As I've mentioned before, 'Gatwick' has been removed from all on train branding (I think Nigel Harris mentioned this in RAIL too!) because several Gatwick Express services now continue to Brighton and Eastbourne.

 

[yorkie]

The DfT online copy of the Byelaws.


http://www2.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/regs/railwaysbyelaws.pdf

Gatwick Express Ltd
(But list is seemingly out of date)

Definitely out of date!

http://www.go-ahead.com/goahead/ourcompanies/rail/southern/

Southern provides train services in South London and connects central London to the South Coast, East and West Sussex, Surrey and parts of Kent and Hampshire. It also runs the Gatwick Express service.

If Southern had issued an Unpaid Fare Notice for travelling on a Southern train on a Southern Only ticket, I think that the notice could be relatively easily appealed, and if they did not accept the appeal, I'd love to see them take it to court. It would be hilarious to see them try to argue to the Court that they were not Southern. What would they do, wear a disguise and give a false name?

Joking aside, the OP now has to chase Southern up for a refund, it's a shame he did not opt for the unpaid fare notice option that we would always recommend in this situation. We'll see what happens and take things from there. I hope the OP isn't going to give up easily.

 

[Mojo]

The DfT online copy of the Byelaws.


http://www2.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/regs/railwaysbyelaws.pdf

Gatwick Express Ltd
(But list is seemingly out of date)

It isn't out of date. If you read the text above and the subheader, you see that that list is not a list of operators, but a list of previous byelaws.

 

[ji459]

[...]I think that its likely that Downlander will be withdrawn at the end of the summer season there is already confusion over which bus services are included since Eastbourne Buses became part of Stagecoach.[...]

D'oh, that'll be why after wandering up and down Terminus Road looking at timetables in the bus shelters, I wasn't able to find a single Eastbourne Buses service!

It would be a real shame if the Downlander was withdrawn - it's fantastic value for money!

 

[gpb_croppers63]

So just to clarify: is a Daysave ticket valid on Gatwick Express? I'm thinking of having a day out next Monday and I really want to try out the Class 442s but if I can't get on these with a Daysave ticket, I'll come up with an alternative plan.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Mike395]

So just to clarify: is a Daysave ticket valid on Gatwick Express? I'm thinking of having a day out next Monday and I really want to try out the Class 442s but if I can't get on these with a Daysave ticket, I'll come up with an alternative plan.

Thanks in advance!

Yes, but you may have to argue your case (and accept a UPFN if they still don't believe you)!

You'll stand more chance of getting guards to accept the ticket on services that continue to/from Brighton

 

[gpb_croppers63]

Yes, but you may have to argue your case (and accept a UPFN if they still don't believe you)!

You'll stand more chance of getting guards to accept the ticket on services that continue to/from Brighton

Great. Thanks for the info! Is there any way to find out which 442 services continue to Brighton in advance or will I have to just work it out when I get to Victoria?

 

[Mojo]

The 442 services are identified in the Brighton timetable with a square in the notes row.

 

[gpb_croppers63]

The 442 services are identified in the Brighton timetable with a square in the notes row.

Thanks! I'll have a look at that

 

[bb21]

Great. Thanks for the info! Is there any way to find out which 442 services continue to Brighton in advance or will I have to just work it out when I get to Victoria?

On weekdays:

Down

1A50 London Victoria 0615 - Gatwick Airport 0645a 0648d - Brighton 0713
1A52 London Victoria 0630 - Gatwick Airport 0659a 0704d - Brighton 0733 (Cancelled Today)
1A54 London Victoria 0645 - Gatwick Airport 0716a 0725d - Brighton 0753
1A36 London Victoria 1730 - Gatwick Airport 1757a 1800d - Brighton 1834
1A40 London Victoria 1745 - Gatwick Airport 1812a 1815d - Brighton 1849
1A42 London Victoria 1800 - Gatwick Airport 1828a 1835d - Brighton 1910
1A44 London Victoria 1815 - Gatwick Airport 1844a 1846d - Brighton 1922
1A46 London Victoria 1830 - Gatwick Airport 1900a 1905d - Brighton 1939
1A52 London Victoria 1845 - Gatwick Airport 1914a 1916d - Brighton 1947

Up

1A55 Brighton 0630 - Gatwick Airport 0703a 0705d - London Victoria 0736
1A57 Brighton 0640 - Gatwick Airport 0715a 0720d - London Victoria 0750
1A59 Brighton 0656 - Gatwick Airport 0732a 0735d - London Victoria 0806
1A61 Brighton 0715 - Gatwick Airport 0747a 0750d - London Victoria 0820
1A63 Brighton 0730 - Gatwick Airport 0802a 0805d - London Victoria 0835
1A65 Brighton 0744 - Gatwick Airport 0817a 0820d - London Victoria 0852 (Cancelled Today)
1A69 Brighton 0813 - Gatwick Airport 0846a 0850d - London Victoria 0920

 

[yorkie]

So just to clarify: is a Daysave ticket valid on Gatwick Express? I'm thinking of having a day out next Monday and I really want to try out the Class 442s but if I can't get on these with a Daysave ticket, I'll come up with an alternative plan.

Thanks in advance!

Make sure you print Condition 10 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, the statement on the Gatwick Express website showing that the service is 'operated by Southern', and also the Southern route map which shows the non-stop service clearly on the map.

The unpaid fare notice will be issued by Southern Trains, and they can't therefore argue that they are not Southern!

 

[gpb_croppers63]

On weekdays:

Down

1A50 London Victoria 0615 - Gatwick Airport 0645a 0648d - Brighton 0713
1A52 London Victoria 0630 - Gatwick Airport 0659a 0704d - Brighton 0733 (Cancelled Today)
1A54 London Victoria 0645 - Gatwick Airport 0716a 0725d - Brighton 0753
1A36 London Victoria 1730 - Gatwick Airport 1757a 1800d - Brighton 1834
1A40 London Victoria 1745 - Gatwick Airport 1812a 1815d - Brighton 1849
1A42 London Victoria 1800 - Gatwick Airport 1828a 1835d - Brighton 1910
1A44 London Victoria 1815 - Gatwick Airport 1844a 1846d - Brighton 1922
1A46 London Victoria 1830 - Gatwick Airport 1900a 1905d - Brighton 1939
1A52 London Victoria 1845 - Gatwick Airport 1914a 1916d - Brighton 1947

Up

1A55 Brighton 0630 - Gatwick Airport 0703a 0705d - London Victoria 0736
1A57 Brighton 0640 - Gatwick Airport 0715a 0720d - London Victoria 0750
1A59 Brighton 0656 - Gatwick Airport 0732a 0735d - London Victoria 0806
1A61 Brighton 0715 - Gatwick Airport 0747a 0750d - London Victoria 0820
1A63 Brighton 0730 - Gatwick Airport 0802a 0805d - London Victoria 0835
1A65 Brighton 0744 - Gatwick Airport 0817a 0820d - London Victoria 0852 (Cancelled Today)
1A69 Brighton 0813 - Gatwick Airport 0846a 0850d - London Victoria 0920

Thanks bb21. Unfortunately, I don't think any of those trains will work as the Daysave ticket isn't valid before 10:00 and I need to get to Southend Airport by around 19:00 for my flight back to Galway.

Make sure you print Condition 10 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, the statement on the Gatwick Express website showing that the service is 'operated by Southern', and also the Southern route map which shows the non-stop service clearly on the map.

The unpaid fare notice will be issued by Southern Trains, and they can't therefore argue that they are not Southern!

Thanks for the info Yorkie. I agree that if I'm armed with all of the information, they can't possibly charge me. I'm sure that won't stop them trying but we'll see. I will make sure I don't pay up and just get an unpaid fare notice if they do say it's not valid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've just booked my DaySave ticket and was looking around for all of the info that Yorkie suggested I print when I came across this page on the Gatwick Express website: http://www.gatwickexpress.com/en/about-us/about-us. Of particular interest is "Managed and operated by Southern, we have 300 staff, some of whom are multilingual to help meet, greet and help foreign travellers at our stations.". I don't see how they can say that a DaySave ticket isn't valid in that case.

 

[Drsatan]

Sorry for the lack of updates but due to other concerns I didn't post my letter of complaint until a couple of weeks ago. However I received a reply today.

The letter states that 'Normal Southern tickets are therefore not valid on the Gatwick Express' because of Southern's distinction between its normal services and Gatwick Express, ignoring the fact that they're run by the same company. The letter states that 'although for this reason, not refund is due' the letter contained £20 worth of travel vouchers as a goodwill gesture.

 

[radamfi]

That is very cunning from Southern. They don't admit that the ticket is valid on GEx, but they can't be taken to task for not refunding the money.

 

[jon0844]

Once again the 'goodwill gesture' trick is deployed! They should be banned.

If a company refuses to accept it made a mistake, they should be forced to stick by what they said and refuse a refund (why give a goodwill gesture if you're so sure you're right?) and then allow the next step to be a day in court or a verdict of an adjudicator.

 

[yorkie]

I am glad they admit you are "correct", though the waffle about separate entitlesd should be ignored as it is incorrect, but I am glad you got most of your money back however I believe your tickets cost £11.80 each so Southern owe you £3.60. I will assist in writing a letter requesting the balance if you like.

I would recommend anyone using a Southern only ticket on any service operated by Southern to not hand over any money. They will then have to issue an Unpaid Fare Notice, which I predict will be cancelled. I will assist in appealing the UPFN.

Is anyone else planning to travel on Southern only tickets on services operated by Southern? If so, please do get in touch for some advice to ensure you are prepared in case Southern decide that the service you are on will not be honoured. Also, be prepared for a similar battle when using an out-boundary Travelcard routed Southern only within the Zones on SWT.

My advice is always to be prepared, act calm, be polite, refuse to hand over any money, but co-operate with the UPFN, draft up a letter, ask me (and other fares advisors) to proof read the letter, and then send it to them. We will assist in any way we can when you use a TOC-specific ticket on TOCs you are entitled to use it on.

 

[AlterEgo]

Once again the 'goodwill gesture' trick is deployed! They should be banned.

If a company refuses to accept it made a mistake, they should be forced to stick by what they said and refuse a refund (why give a goodwill gesture if you're so sure you're right?) and then allow the next step to be a day in court or a verdict of an adjudicator.

Goodwill gestures make the world go around - when used properly!

It's not been used properly here IMHO - although I'm sure whoever wrote the letter did so with the best of intentions.

A gesture of goodwill is used when the customer is wrong, factually incorrect, mistaken, or simply the victim of unfortunate circumstances. A refund of a non-refundable fare (or waiving of admin fees) might be appropriate when, say, a customer is unable to travel due to a bereavement or illness.

To want to "ban" goodwill gestures would be a travesty!

 

[b0b]

Gotta love that the stationary has both the Gatwick express and southern header. They're not doing very well at even pretending they are two different entities!!!!

 

[Drsatan]

I am glad they admit you are "correct", though the waffle about separate entitlesd should be ignored as it is incorrect, but I am glad you got most of your money back however I believe your tickets cost £11.80 each so Southern owe you £3.60. I will assist in writing a letter requesting the balance if you like.

Thanks, that would be appreciated. Although the travel vouchers were a 'goodwill gesture' the letter ultimately doesn't answer my question. The real question is why won't Southern accept 'Southern only' tickets on a service it runs. I'm also not impressed as to how Southern interchangeably uses 'Express' and 'Gatwick Express' branding. At Victoria and Gatwick Airport the Gatwick Express service is advertised but as others have commented not only does the external and internal branding on the trains omit 'express' but a fair few 'Gatwick Express' services go beyond Gatwick according to bb21. I would be interested to see whether a Daysaver is rejected on an 'Express' service from Brighton because it's not officially a 'Southern' service.

A gesture of goodwill is used when the customer is wrong, factually incorrect, mistaken, or simply the victim of unfortunate circumstances. A refund of a non-refundable fare (or waiving of admin fees) might be appropriate when, say, a customer is unable to travel due to a bereavement or illness.

Having thought about it, Southern are being rather patronising by issuing me with travel vouchers since it's an attempt to prove me wrong. A more honest approach would be to admit that 'Gatwick Express' and 'Southern' are basically the same thing and that Daysavers, Downlanders and even 'Southern Only' singles or returns to Victoria should be accepted on Gatwick Express services.

I'd be very interested to see whether there's anything in commercial law which would prove Southern wrong in this regard.

 

[Darandio]

Since this unfortunate episode has come to light, has the map been removed from the Downlander page? Or did it never exist in the first place?

It's just that in the T&C's it says.....

- South Coast Downlander: valid for unlimited, off-peak travel on all Southern services between stations south of Horsham and Haywards Heath through to Southampton and Ashford International. For more details see the map at southernrailwaytickets.com/downlander

That suggests to me that it is referring to a network map and not the area map available on that page.

 

[Mojo]

Since this unfortunate episode has come to light, has the map been removed from the Downlander page? Or did it never exist in the first place?

It's just that in the T&C's it says.....

That suggests to me that it is referring to a network map and not the area map available on that page.

That is the T&Cs for the South Coast Downlander, the OP was travelling on the All Network Downlander.

The T&Cs page for the All Network Downlander has not changed since it was quoted in post #11.

 

[AlterEgo]

Having thought about it, Southern are being rather patronising by issuing me with travel vouchers since it's an attempt to prove me wrong. A more honest approach would be to admit that 'Gatwick Express' and 'Southern' are basically the same thing and that Daysavers, Downlanders and even 'Southern Only' singles or returns to Victoria should be accepted on Gatwick Express services.

I'd be very interested to see whether there's anything in commercial law which would prove Southern wrong in this regard.

Quite - although such an admission would have a tangible impact on their revenue, and their business. In these cases I would advise a letter to Passenger Focus.

 

[Weary Walker]

A few years ago I had an apex/advanced ticket (I think that is right) which listed the exact trains to catch (no +connections)
The second train of the journey was:
Depart Gatwick 10:35 arrived London Victoria 11:05

There is only one service leaving Gatwick for Victoria that takes 30 minutes

Yet the on board staff on the Gatwick Express told me it wasn't valid.

I pointed out that it was only valid on the train leaving Gatwick at 10:35 and arriving in Victoria at 11:05 - and asked what other train there was that matched those times.
At this point the staff member walked away muttering "it's not valid, it's not valid" but didn't return.

 

[jon0844]

To want to "ban" goodwill gestures would be a travesty!

It was an off the cuff remark, but thanks for giving good examples of where they could, or should, be used!!