Smoking on stations

[Intermodal]

Hi all,

Further to previous threads I have been reading I'd like to get some sort of clarification on smoking on train stations throughout the England and Wales (I am not concerned about Scotland - the law seems to be clear there).

I have found the Health Act 2006 online and this does not seem to prohibit smoking on train stations in itself, although it does seem to make provisions for smoking to be prohibited.

I now quote from the act.

(1)Premises are smoke-free if they are open to the public.

But unless the premises also fall within subsection (2), they are smoke-free only when open to the public.
(2)Premises are smoke-free if they are used as a place of work—

(a)by more than one person (even if the persons who work there do so at different times, or only intermittently), or

(b)where members of the public might attend for the purpose of seeking or receiving goods or services from the person or persons working there (even if members of the public are not always present).

They are smoke-free all the time.
(3)If only part of the premises is open to the public or (as the case may be) used as a place of work mentioned in subsection (2), the premises are smoke-free only to that extent.

(4)In any case, premises are smoke-free only in those areas which are enclosed or substantially enclosed.

It does not mention train stations, and it does not exempt train stations. However, as a lot of train stations are neither enclosed or substantially enclosed, this would not ban smoking on them.

It does, though, say this that authorities may designate any place (enclosed or not) a non smoking area:

(1)The appropriate national authority may make regulations designating as smoke-free any place or description of place that is not smoke-free under section 2.

(2)The place, or places falling within the description, need not be enclosed or substantially enclosed.

(3)The appropriate national authority may designate a place or description of place under this section only if in the authority's opinion there is a significant risk that, without a designation, persons present there would be exposed to significant quantities of smoke.

What I am mainly trying to find out is if this has happened, and if it has, can anyone provide me to some statement saying it has?

Also relevant here are the Railway Byelaws - as they say something about smoking. I quote from them now.

3. Smoking
No person shall smoke or carry a lighted pipe, cigar, cigarette, match, lighter
or other lighted item on any part of the railway on or near which there is a
notice indicating that smoking is not allowed.

This indicates that smoking is illegal, but only if it is signposted.

The real reason for this thread is that I have not spotted any non smoking signs or announcements on Merseyrail stations (except for on underground stations). I also know certain ATW stations permit smoking (Fishguard Harbour being the well known one). As far as I can see, neither the Railway Byelaws or the Health Act 2006 ban smoking on train stations (unless it is signposted for the purpose of the byelaws). I have found this press release by ATOC, saying that smoking is now banned on railway stations due to the act, but it does not say IT itself is banning smoking, so I would not regard this as being a press release or statement saying smoking is now banned under paragraph 3 of the second quote I made of the Health Act 2006, nor is it a national authority.

Thanks for any help on this, it really has me confused.

 

[First class]

I don't think the main smoking legislation you quote is most appropriate to the railway environment, although it does obviously apply. The Railway Byelaws basically state that you may not smoke anywhere where a sign exists prohibiting it.

Merseyrail permits smoking in non-enclosed areas that are above ground, except at Chester which is down to ATW and why a specific announcement exists on the train on approach to Chester. I am unsure why Merseyrail opted for this policy (which probably confuses people travelling to other networks). Initially I was told it was for the benefit of the staff working at the stations and the union(s) were not happy with the fact staff working solo for 9 hours would have to leave the station in order to tend their addiction.

Smoking is a common PACE job for the Byelaw Enforcement Team that patrol the Underground stations, which results in prosecution.

3. Smoking
No person shall smoke or carry a lighted pipe, cigar, cigarette, match, lighter or other lighted item on any part of the railway on or near which there is a notice indicating that smoking is not allowed.

 

[rmt-driver]

It is ridiculous that smoking is banned on completely open air above ground stations, particularly unmanned ones.

 

[Intermodal]

It is ridiculous that smoking is banned on completely open air above ground stations, particularly unmanned ones.

I'd like to see someone enforce it on an unmanned station

 

[FLHH East Anglia]

I'd like to see someone enforce it on an unmanned station

It's ''not'' enforced on 'most' stations.Unfortunately!:cry:

 

[merlodlliw]

As on previous threads, Fishguard station owned by Stenna, managed by ATW allows smoking on the platform, for reasons previously stated.

The other non NR owned station in Wales,Rhyl ( Denbighsire County Council,)ATW managed . forbids smoking on the platform.


Bob

 

[GodAtum]

I hate people who smoke on stations, especially when they stand right next to me on an empty platform! I remember when I was a kid getting smoke blown into my face, its so much nicer now.

 

[Butts]

It is ridiculous that smoking is banned on completely open air above ground stations, particularly unmanned ones.

In my view it is nothing to do with "health reasons" they saw it as an opportunity to save money on cleaning costs. If proper recepticles were provided this would not be a problem.

I regularly smoke at Birmingham International making sure I am in an uncovered area away from anyone else.

At Edinburgh Waverley there are thousands of dog butts littering the area at the top of the ramps where smokers congregate - no one has thought to put a bin for detrius.

Falkirk G my home station again has no provision for dog ends but at least no one hassles you.

 

[HugePilchard]

If proper recepticles were provided this would not be a problem.

I don't understand this one; bins are available in other areas that might be terrorism targets, so why are railway stations different? Why can't they provide clear plastic bags attached to wall brackets in more places? I've seen that at one station (might have been Lowestoft, but don't quote me) and, although it would be useless for hot cigarette butts it would be handy for a lot of other stuff!

 

[mallard]

They'd have to provide specific ashtrays/cigarette bins. "Normal" bins, made from metal or with a metal liner would be ok, but the plastic bag hung from a wall bracket is entirely unsuitable for cigarettes, due to the fire risk.

 

[Greenback]

My observations on the ban on smoking are that the prohibition is impossible to enforce at open air, unmanned stations, but the vast majority of smokers do observe the rules.

As with bars and restaurants, there will usually be a group of smokers at the entrance to stations creating their own ash cloud for everyone else to walk through.

When somebody does smoke on a station platform, even in a staffed station, it creates conflict, as it is usually down to other passengers to confront the offender.

I would therefore prefer that smoking be permitted in designated smoking zones in open air section sof stations. If there is no open air section, or a very small area, then it would not be permitted at all.

 

[rmt-driver]

They'd have to provide specific ashtrays/cigarette bins. "Normal" bins, made from metal or with a metal liner would be ok, but the plastic bag hung from a wall bracket is entirely unsuitable for cigarettes, due to the fire risk.

There is no problem you just stub out the cigarette/cigar on the wall then into the bin bag it goes... This is what I do in the street, I don't like just throwing the end on the floor

 

[mallard]

There is no problem you just stub out the cigarette/cigar on the wall then into the bin bag it goes... This is what I do in the street, I don't like just throwing the end on the floor

Except that you can't rely on everybody checking that their cigarettes are completely extinguished before throwing them away.

 

[tony_mac]

There was a previous thread about this;
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=37181

ATOC’s members have agreed to extend the ban to all platforms and station footbridges within England and Wales

It has never been banned by Merseyrail so somebody got something wrong.
(and Scotrail does not have a complete ban either, as far as I know - certainly not Mallaig the last time I was there)

 

[142094]

Except that you can't rely on everybody checking that their cigarettes are completely extinguished before throwing them away.

Still, this happens with metal bins before. I've seen one full of used Metro newspapers and other rubbish going up in smoke after someone stubbed out a cigarette and put the butt into it, only for it to set fire to the bin.

 

[Butts]

They'd have to provide specific ashtrays/cigarette bins. "Normal" bins, made from metal or with a metal liner would be ok, but the plastic bag hung from a wall bracket is entirely unsuitable for cigarettes, due to the fire risk.

All you need is those metal "jobbies" that are pinned to the wall outside a lot of offices and pubs.

They only have a small aperture to discard the butt in.

 

[Stigy]

The Railways ceased the opportunity to utilise the Railway Byelaws in this way, presumably because Rail Stations are open-air in a lot of cases, and thus other acts that prohibit smoking in public would not apply. The Byelaws state that one has to be smoking near a sign prohibiting it, but with exception of trains where there's usually a sign on every window, the TOCs/NWR only legally have to put up signs at all entrances and exits to their stations. The Byelaws don't seem to reflect this though.

What is deemed as near a sign? I think the fact that you have to pass a No Smoking sign to enter a station should be reflected in the Byelaws rather than stating no person shall smoke near a sign indicating it's not permitted. Bear in mind the Byelaws were last amended in 2005, they only intended to take in to account underground stations and trains as far as smoking went.

Unless clearly taking the biscuit (I once reported somebody for smoking at a station in front of the biggest No Smoking sign I have ever seen!), I tend to ask people to put their ciggie out, and if they do so, that's fair enough. Only reason I would report them for it is for the reason above, if they are near any size signage or if they are on a train.

 

[rmt-driver]

As long as they don't get strict on smoking in the cab, it's fine

 

[Butts]

I think the Railway Station operators need a little flexibility on this issue permitting smoking in non-enclosed areas where it will not effect others - no more than it would if they walked passed someone smoking a cigarette in the street.

Even a lot of UK Airports are bringing back external smoking areas post-security with Newcastle being the latest.

As someone mentioned designated areas on platforms where non-smokers can avoid the experience of passive smoking - it works in a lot of foreign stations.

 

[Deerfold]

In my view it is nothing to do with "health reasons" they saw it as an opportunity to save money on cleaning costs. If proper recepticles were provided this would not be a problem.

I regularly smoke at Birmingham International making sure I am in an uncovered area away from anyone else.

Most smokers seem to be blissfully unaware of just how far their smoke spreads. Unfortunately at my local (staffed) station it's unusual for there not to be half a dozen smokers. And getting off the train people who smoke all the way from the train to the exit making it impossible not to have to breathe in their fumes for the whole two minutes they would have had to wait to get out of the station.

They had a blitz about 6 months ago with BTP. It doesn't seem to have made much difference.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Except that you can't rely on everybody checking that their cigarettes are completely extinguished before throwing them away.

The act of throwing a cigarette end on the floor constitutes an offence of some sort (I cannot remember which), but there was a poster campaign about this very matter in Greater Manchester two years ago. I think that "causing litter" was part of the wording.

Can anyone help on this matter?

 

[trainophile]

Given the generally draughty nature of station platforms, I'd be more worried about getting flicked ash blown in my face than dodging the smoke.

 

[Butts]

How did people manage for hundreds of years before the ban came in

Weve been forced off Trains....

Out of the Buffets....

Out of the Bars....

Are they never satisfied ?

 

[harz99]

How did people manage for hundreds of years before the ban came in

Weve been forced off Trains....

Out of the Buffets....

Out of the Bars....

Are they never satisfied ?

No, not until the only place your allowed to smoke is in one small room in your own abode, or an oblong wooden box...................

 

[Butts]

No, not until the only place your allowed to smoke is in one small room in your own abode, or an oblong wooden box...................

Here speaks the voice of reason and liberty :roll:

You should be grateful some of us mugs smoke -the government makes a huge profit on smokers even after deducting costs to the NHS of smoking related illness never mind the amount saved in pensions and benefits they don't have to pay as we peg it early.

How do you fancy paying another 3p in income tax if everyone gives up

 

[harz99]

Here speaks the voice of reason and liberty :roll:

You should be grateful some of us mugs smoke -the government makes a huge profit on smokers even after deducting costs to the NHS of smoking related illness never mind the amount saved in pensions and benefits they don't have to pay as we peg it early.

How do you fancy paying another 3p in income tax if everyone gives up

Yep, having suffered on and off from Asthma for many years my reason is because I wish to have the liberty to not breath in your second hand smoke!

"some of us mugs smoke"; you said it......................

We are never going to see everyone giving up the weed any more than people will stop abusing alcohol; just do it at home where the person or persons most affected and at risk are yourself.

 

[Butts]

Yep, having suffered on and off from Asthma for many years my reason is because I wish to have the liberty to not breath in your second hand smoke!

"some of us mugs smoke"; you said it......................

We are never going to see everyone giving up the weed any more than people will stop abusing alcohol; just do it at home where the person or persons most affected and at risk are yourself.

What about the financial aspect....the £5 billion subsidy the Rail Industry receives is probably about the same amount of profit they make from us mugs.

 

[harz99]

What about the financial aspect....the £5 billion subsidy the Rail Industry receives is probably about the same amount of profit they make from us mugs.

So no facts to back up that statement then. Nor I suppose to back up the supposed 3p extra income tax.

 

[Butts]

So no facts to back up that statement then. Nor I suppose to back up the supposed 3p extra income tax.

Figures from HM Customs and excise and TMA

Year 2009/10 Excise Duty 8.8 billion plus vat 1.7 billion = 10.5 billion

2010/11 Estimate Duty 9.1 billion plus vat 2.0 billion = 11.1 billion

Medical News Today June 2009 Stephanie Brumer - cost of smoking to NHS

£5 billion (estimated) latest figures I could obtain.

So I was correct the profit the government make from smoking could be used to pay for the subsidy to run The UK Railway (about £5 billion).

I was a little carried away on the income tax front probably about 2p rise bordering on 3p.

 

[trainophile]

They'll make some of the tax back by the NHS not having to treat so many smoking related diseases.