Passenger Obligation To Buy A Ticket

[radamfi]

This is an arguement for not allowing passengers to board without tickets, i would say, and also supports my point that a large number of people will not ask for the correct journey unless challenged.

But everyone on this thread WANTS to board with a ticket! Northern are preventing this by not having ticket offices or TVMs.

 

[Old Timer]

You don't have an opportunity to buy a ticket at that point I guess.

How long does this obligation last for, though? Assuming I'm travelling between two unmanned stations, but then a week later catch another train, when the guard comes round I have an opportunity to buy a ticket for the first journey. But am I obliged (legally) to?

The Law is not framed in that way.

UK Law as written regards each person as being a "reasonable person" who acts in a proper and dare I say "honourable" way. They will therefore ensure that they have a ticket before travelling or they pay at the end of the journey.

Now being reasonable and applying a modicum of common sense, we know that few people today are "honourable" and whereas years ago a person may have paid for their journey retrospectively, we know these days that this is as common a case as finding hens teeth.

From a practical point of view, the 1889 Act assumes manned stations, trains, etc.

The Law assumes still that someone travelling will make reasonable efforts to pay the fare, it could even be by buying a return ticket from the destination station back to the origin station but frankly even if there is an operational machine, we have to expect that few if any will do so. Its part of how we have arrived at the society we now enjoy.

If there is no-one there then effectively the journey would be construed as being free. There is no legal provision to claim back payment except when a person who is a regular fare evader has been apprehended as part of a special operation.

There is a big difference between a TOC failing to provide adequate facilities and deliberate avoidance. However with the current economic climate developing I think TOCs will be taking revenue protection somewhat more seriously than they have previously.

 

[CarterUSM]

This keeps coming up time and time again in these circular arguments.

Can any guard or RPI on here suggest how likely this is ?????

With the first version of avantix, it could be a semi-regular occurence, but I have to say with the newer version, I have never had any problems with it in over a year, Thyrons apart of course! I don't hear of any failures from colleagues either.

 

[Flamingo]

I would say it's fair to request that passengers do purchase a ticket once the journey has ended (they've used the service), I just wish certain TOCs would offer more appropriate ways of doing so.

I don't want to extend my journey by an hour, because I am directed to heaving travel centre. Make sure there are people ready to sell me that ticket upon arrival (RPIs or TVMs e.t.c) without causing too much of a delay.

There is nothing unreasonable about asking a TOC to provide adequate facilities to buy a ticket, I'll agree with you there, and if there were consistent queues of twenty minutes plus then I would be making representations to the TOC to get their act together.

My point is more that certain posters seem to think that they have no responsibility to buy the ticket unless physically asked, either at a barrier or on-board train, and that being asked to pay for the service AFTER using it is incorrect.

 

[WestCoast]

But everyone on this thread WANTS to board with a ticket! Northern are preventing this by not having ticket offices or TVMs.

YES!! I want to pay the correct fare before my journey commences, paying on arrival offers too many chances for evaders to cheat. It's not efficient and it delays me. I want to pay, let me pay!!

There is nothing unreasonable about asking a TOC to provide adequate facilities to buy a ticket, I'll agree with you there, and if there were consistent queues of twenty minutes plus then I would be making representations to the TOC to get their act together.

That's what we want!

My point is more that certain posters seem to think that they have no responsibility to buy the ticket unless physically asked, either at a barrier or on-board train, and that being asked to pay for the service AFTER using it is incorrect.

Agreed.

 

[Flamingo]

But everyone on this thread WANTS to board with a ticket! Northern are preventing this by not having ticket offices or TVMs.

I can't comment on Northern, I have absolutely zero experience with them. But the tone of some of the posts (exile for one) is that if he has something more important to him to do, then he does not need the trouble of buying a ticket.

 

[Old Timer]

But everyone on this thread WANTS to board with a ticket! Northern are preventing this by not having ticket offices or TVMs.

But do they not sell on the train ?

 

[WestCoast]

But do they not sell on the train ?

At Peak times, guards can't get down the train, they are just as packed as any London commuter flow (i.e. crush). Guards don't always appear either and there is no requirement to find a guard and it many cases it wouldn't be practical to do so.

I can't comment on Northern, I have absolutely zero experience with them. But the tone of some of the posts (exile for one) is that if he has something more important to him to do, then he does not need the trouble of buying a ticket.

The problem is Northern is making it difficult to buy tickets, and that's what I (and many other posters) don't like about the situation. It's almost as if they don't want the money!

 

[radamfi]

But do they not sell on the train ?

Sometimes, but not always. Sometimes guards simply don't have enough time to sell tickets on the train and other times guards don't leave the back cab.

 

[exile]

No, some anonymous bloke on an internet chat site is telling you to take some responsibility for your own life, and stop trying to find someone else to blame because you can't get your s*** together.

Who I work for is irrelevant. I am not at work or acting in any sort of an official capacity. If I was I would have put "Sir" at the end of the post

Trying to find someone to blame? Is it my fault the ticket machines aren't working or is it the TOC's? Is it my fault the train is late?

Of course, delay is possible however you decide to get to an appointment. But surely a delay caused solely by the TOC's failure to sell me a ticket is not one I should have to cater for.

 

[Flamingo]

I have two stations I pass through in South Wales, Bridgend and Port Talbot.

In the morning trains especially, Bridgend has a zero tolerance approach to letting people through the barriers, this is known, and people turn up and queue.

Port Talbot is unbarriered, regardless of the state of the booking office, people walk past it, or say "I couldn't be bothered to queue / the queue was too long" when asked why they didn't buy a ticket.

I'm sure that if BTP or ATW started prosecuting them for not having tickets from PTA, then there would be a steady stream of passengers from PTA saying "I wanted to buy a ticket but I didn't have an opportunity".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Trying to find someone to blame? Is it my fault the ticket machines aren't working or is it the TOC's? Is it my fault the train is late?

Of course, delay is possible however you decide to get to an appointment. But surely a delay caused solely by the TOC's failure to sell me a ticket is not one I should have to cater for.

But a delay caused by your failure to buy a ticket is one that you need to cater for. If you know that it takes X minutes to queue for a ticket either at one end or the other, then that should be factored into your journey time, especially of it is important that somewhere is reached by a certain time. Life doesn't run smoothly.

 

[DelayRepay]

But a delay caused by your failure to buy a ticket is one that you need to cater for. If you know that it takes X minutes to queue for a ticket either at one end or the other, then that should be factored into your journey time, especially of it is important that somewhere is reached by a certain time. Life doesn't run smoothly.

That argument doesn't work though. If you know it takes X minutes to queue for a ticket, so arrive at the station X minutes before departure but find the booking office closed/machine out of order, then the guard doesn't come around, that doesn't somehow mean you end up at your destination with X minutes to spare to buy a ticket.

What you are suggesting is that everyone should factor in X at each end of their journey just in case one ticket office is closed.

 

[Old Timer]

Sometimes, but not always. Sometimes guards simply don't have enough time to sell tickets on the train and other times guards don't leave the back cab.

OK, thank you for the explanation.

The answer however, surely, is that if it is well known, and it obviously is that there will be long queues then surely the sensible thing to do is to plan your journey such that you either buy in advance - remember even travel agents in the High St can sell you a ticket ! - or just be prepared to wait in the queue.

It really is no different from using a Tesco or Sainsbury's Local store in a City Centre in a morning peak - you know the store will be busy and have few tills open so you build in time to allow for that - or get your stuff the night before ?

I would suggest that few journeys are as "spur of the moment" as people wish to suggest.

I find the suggestion that a TOC is making it difficult to buy a ticket somewhat bizarre, but I will accept that there is obviously some sort of apparant issue with Northern with regards to selling tickets.

 

[exile]

I suspect only those of us who live in Northern Land really know what we're up against.....

I have a season ticket which costs me an arm and a leg. I'm hardly likely to support fare evasion. I think it's unreasonable, however, to NOT have staff to collect excess fares and pay instead for people to stand at the station exit, not to sell tickets but to trap people without them, or to expect them to queue for a lengthy period at a ticket office when they have arrived at their destination station and are trying to get to work or an appointment, on top of not having ticket offices, ticket machines or conductors who collect fares. I suspect anyone who joins the train at Irlam or any of the other picturesque unstaffed ruins in the GM area on the way to Manchester in the morning peak must face this scenario very often.

 

[Old Timer]

That argument doesn't work though. If you know it takes X minutes to queue for a ticket, so arrive at the station X minutes before departure but find the booking office closed/machine out of order, then the guard doesn't come around, that doesn't somehow mean you end up at your destination with X minutes to spare to buy a ticket.

What you are suggesting is that everyone should factor in X at each end of their journey just in case one ticket office is closed.

I regulalry drive. I have to factor in the likelihood of delays on a long journey, such that most of the time I will arrive for an appointment much earlier than necessary. That's life I am afraid.

I really do not know where this modern day attitude of no delay comes from. Instant satisfaction is not possible in all things, its simply advertising hype that has gotten out of control.

 

[WestCoast]

But a delay caused by your failure to buy a ticket is one that you need to cater for. If you know that it takes X minutes to queue for a ticket either at one end or the other, then that should be factored into your journey time, especially of it is important that somewhere is reached by a certain time. Life doesn't run smoothly.

I see the argument about allowing "contingency time" and that is very sensible, you'd do that for anything, wouldn't you?? I would always do that. However, how is a closed ticket office / no ticket office at origin or destination / no sign of a guard the passenger's fault? That's a problem the TOC must deal with and they should make sure adequate ticket purchasing facilities are provided (even on arrival).

 

[Old Timer]

I suspect only those of us who live in Northern Land really know what we're up against.....

I have a season ticket which costs me an arm and a leg. I'm hardly likely to support fare evasion. I think it's unreasonable, however, to NOT have staff to collect excess fares and pay instead for people to stand at the station exit, not to sell tickets but to trap people without them, or to expect them to queue for a lengthy period at a ticket office when they have arrived at their destination station and are trying to get to work or an appointment, on top of not having ticket offices, ticket machines or conductors who collect fares. I suspect anyone who joins the train at Irlam or any of the other picturesque unstaffed ruins in the GM area on the way to Manchester in the morning peak must face this scenario very often.

So where did you buy your season ticket ?

I doubt that there are that many people travelling from these stations on a once in a lifetime journey, so they must be aware of the scenario. Common sense says to me that I would enquire how to avoid the queues.

If someone is stupid enough to queue each day every day at destination to buy a ticket then its probably best to let them alone, because the lights are obviously on but no-one is at home !

 

[Yew]

I must admit, I wouldn't know what to do if I arrived at Shrewsbury station without a ticket by having started from an unstaffed station (there are several unstaffed stations in the area) and the barriers were closed. There's no ticket office inside the barriers. Looking at the plan, there is a Customer Assistance Point (which is on the platform and not the subway as the map seems to imply) - I've seen it in real life, but never used it. I don't know if they sell tickets though.

Similar situation with Birmingham New Street - there seems to be no ticket office inside the gateline in the plan, but there is a 'Rail Information' point next to the barriers and on the inside. I don't know if it sells tickets though.

Anyway, what should one do if one reached either Shrewsbury or Birmingham New Street without a ticket?

I had a friend who boarded at a unmanned station and didnt get asked to buy a ticket on the way around. I told him to get the the gateline at nottingham and ask where to buy a ticket (the person had an avantix, as there is no excess fares office in notts) Methinks that even if he had walked past an office, it would be hard for EMT to say he had intent when he walked up to the first member of staff he saw on the station and asked 'Excuse me, where can I buy a ticket'

 

[exile]

OK, thank you for the explanation.

The answer however, surely, is that if it is well known, and it obviously is that there will be long queues then surely the sensible thing to do is to plan your journey such that you either buy in advance - remember even travel agents in the High St can sell you a ticket ! - or just be prepared to wait in the queue.

There's no point me turning up early at an unstaffed station with no ticket machine. I expect to buy the ticket on the train but on this occasion the machine is bust (this happens maybe 3 or 4 times a year out of 200+ return journeys). And because the train is late my contingency time is already used up when I get to the destination.

It really is no different from using a Tesco or Sainsbury's Local store in a City Centre in a morning peak - you know the store will be busy and have few tills open so you build in time to allow for that - or get your stuff the night before ?


I would suggest that few journeys are as "spur of the moment" as people wish to suggest.

I find the suggestion that a TOC is making it difficult to buy a ticket somewhat bizarre, but I will accept that there is obviously some sort of apparant issue with Northern with regards to selling tickets.

You're right there! And there are real fare dodgers who have no intention of buying tickets - and they can usually get away with it, due to the already mentioned lack of ticket offices, machines, guards able to check tickets, excess ticket windows or ticket checks on exiting most stations.

 

[b0b]

I have so many problems with the "pay on arrival" scheme.

(a) you might be unfamiliar with the station layout and unwittingly walk past an "opportunity to pay";
(b) you may have allowed a reasonable contingency time; but delays in getting to your destination caused directly by the railway eats your contingency - you're still expected to wait;
(c) the "you must pay at the destination no matter how long it takes"; allows TOCs to close booking offices; not provide guards on trains and have minimal ticketing issuing facilities; you're basically incentivising TOCs to provide less, not more, opportunities to pay!
(d) if you regularly buy on the train; boarding from an unstaffed station; but one time there was no opportunity to buy, you might unintentionally try to leave the destination - we all get on "auto pilot" when we are regular commuters.

 

[nedchester]

The Law is not framed in that way.

UK Law as written regards each person as being a "reasonable person" who acts in a proper and dare I say "honourable" way. They will therefore ensure that they have a ticket before travelling or they pay at the end of the journey.

Now being reasonable and applying a modicum of common sense, we know that few people today are "honourable" and whereas years ago a person may have paid for their journey retrospectively, we know these days that this is as common a case as finding hens teeth.

From a practical point of view, the 1889 Act assumes manned stations, trains, etc.

The Law assumes still that someone travelling will make reasonable efforts to pay the fare, it could even be by buying a return ticket from the destination station back to the origin station but frankly even if there is an operational machine, we have to expect that few if any will do so. Its part of how we have arrived at the society we now enjoy.

If there is no-one there then effectively the journey would be construed as being free. There is no legal provision to claim back payment except when a person who is a regular fare evader has been apprehended as part of a special operation.

There is a big difference between a TOC failing to provide adequate facilities and deliberate avoidance. However with the current economic climate developing I think TOCs will be taking revenue protection somewhat more seriously than they have previously.

Thank you for confirming that as that is the way I would see things.

In my opinion Northern should start installing TVMs on many stations especially those going into large conurbations like Manchester. Merseyrail have done this effectively so why not Northern. I am not talking about installing one at somewhere like Ribblehead but on say Cheshire Lines stations like Cuddington/Greenbank for example they should be installed.

That said using TVMs is not always easy. Today I went from Capenhurst to Southport with my wife and the kids (with Family railcard) I had to make a few tries to ensure I got the right ticket (adding the right number of passengers, making sure I added the railcard first etc). I commented to my wife that many passengers would be put off trying to use these machines to book a such a ticket. And I am used to using these machines!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Large crowd - football, carnival, festival - whatever. Barriers are opened everyone let through because it would create an impossible situation otherwise. Countless thousands of people have travelled without, nor without intention to, pay a fare. Would you label all of them thieves?

The inability of any business to correctly collect it's revenue is the fault of the business and not it's customers. A system which makes it easier for a customer NOT to pay is fatally flawed in any business regardless of the rights or wrongs.

We are not dealing with someone's perfect ideal of some kind of Stalinesque society where Fare Dodgers face execution but a real, breathing, warts and all society and it isn't going to change in the forseeable future.

 

[Old Timer]

Thank you for confirming that as that is the way I would see things.

In my opinion Northern should start installing TVMs on many stations especially those going into large conurbations like Manchester. Merseyrail have done this effectively so why not Northern. I am not talking about installing one at somewhere like Ribblehead but on say Cheshire Lines stations like Cuddington/Greenbank for example they should be installed.

Yes, I agree the whole situation does seem rather bizarre to say the least. I wonder if it is something to do with vandalism ?

 

[WestCoast]

Yes, I agree the whole situation does seem rather bizarre to say the least. I wonder if it is something to do with vandalism ?

Even a card-only TVM at certain stations would help (Scotrail use them). I am not sure vandalism would be an issue at stations like Greenbank, but it seems to me Northern are reluctant to put TVMs anywhere. The Manchester Metrolink tram system manage with TVMs at all stations and a penalty fare policy, so it can be done in the area.

Like nedchester says, Merseytravel PTE have forced Northern to introduce ticket purchasing facilities with funding.

 

[nedchester]

Yes, I agree the whole situation does seem rather bizarre to say the least. I wonder if it is something to do with vandalism ?

Well possibly but Merseyrail have made a real effort to make their stations more 'secure'. Capenhurst and stations on the Ellesmere Port branch can have a reputation for anti social behaviour especially in the evenings but all have TVMs (there is a mobile security that monitors these stations by car though)

 

[exile]

It all used to be much easier - you had to pass some sort of staffed barrier before you boarded, and there was someone to take your ticket when you got off. And your chances of not having your ticket checked on board were virtually nil. Now I can see why TOCs want to cut staff numbers and wages - but surely there comes a point where they're losing too much revenue by doing so -and McNulty seems to suggest more of the same.

 

[Old Timer]

There's no point me turning up early at an unstaffed station with no ticket machine. I expect to buy the ticket on the train but on this occasion the machine is bust (this happens maybe 3 or 4 times a year out of 200+ return journeys). And because the train is late my contingency time is already used up when I get to the destination.

Which statistically adds up to about 1.5% or 2%, which I do not think is a bad ratio over a year.

Compare that to road traffic delays - which seem to bother no-one on here at all, so I assume people must leave masses of time ???

Last Friday for example a road journey of 1&3/4 hours took 3&1/2 because of the incompetence and stupidity of other people, and caused me great inconvenience - but I have to shrug it off as one of those cases where the statistics work against me.

 

[exile]

Which statistically adds up to about 1.5% or 2%, which I do not think is a bad ratio over a year.

Compare that to road traffic delays - which seem to bother no-one on here at all, so I assume people must leave masses of time ???

Last Friday for example a road journey of 1&3/4 hours took 3&1/2 because of the incompetence and stupidity of other people, and caused me great inconvenience - but I have to shrug it off as one of those cases where the statistics work against me.

But late trains or traffic jams are something you can shrug off - being held prisoner in a station because the TOC is not able to sell you ticket is not something you should have to put up with.

 

[WestCoast]

The Hadfield line is probably one of the worst in the GM area, stations every 3-5 minutes, busy with high-capacity trains, lack of offices/TVMs, guards too busy opening and closing doors - something which hasn't been mentioned. The queues off-peak at Piccadilly can be long!

 

[radamfi]

Is it so wrong to expect ticket buying to be as convenient as in other parts of Europe?

For example in the Netherlands, every station has a TVM which accepts coins and cards (but not notes which I admit is a problem for foreigners but not the Dutch). You can buy a print at home ticket for any walk on journey. If you have an OV-Chipkaart smartcard, you don't ever have to visit a TVM ever again if you link it to your bank account as you just swipe in and swipe out.

(Most of the above is also enjoyed by TfL Oyster card holders).

It seems silly to deter potential travellers just because the ticket buying process is difficult.