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Passenger Obligation To Buy A Ticket

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WelshBluebird

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All Prima Facie evidence of poor TOC management but then service level agreements about station manning and revenue protection should have been part of the franchise agreement. ATW are after all providing a subsidised service.

In the new culture of financial responsibility why not write to your MP or get the local reptiles at the news media interested.

To be fair, its not just ATW. It was the same when it was Wales & Borders / Valley Lines and even when it was BR.
The reality is that I would think the cost of the barriers, TVM's and remodelling the stations is just too great. It would probably be worth it over time, but the amount of time is probably too large. They have started putting them in on the larger stations on the route, but I think that will be it for now.
 
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I think it's been established that in Northern land, most stations do not have TOD facilities and not all journeys can be planned at least 4-5 days in advance for the tickets to be posted. I personally have been invited to job interviews with 2 days' notice so the scenario described is definitely possible and relevant..
You can buy rail tickets at many high st travel agents.
 

Ferret

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I have not been able to find a statement from Northern Rail that if you are not able to purchase a ticket at the departure station nor been given the opportunity to do so from the train crew then you should do so before leaving the arrival station (there being, I assume) no physical barrier or obvious sign to warn you that you would be committing an offence if you were to pass that point without being in possession of a ticket).

Earlier in this thread, the NRCoC is quoted stating that you must buy a ticket at your earliest opportunity. A ticket office at destination is an opportunity! It really is as simple as that I'm afraid...
 

hairyhandedfool

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....I have not been able to find a statement from Northern Rail that if you are not able to purchase a ticket at the departure station nor been given the opportunity to do so from the train crew then you should do so before leaving the arrival station (there being, I assume)....

There is the NRCoC, but I guess you actually have to get a copy of that rather than it being read to you and stuffed in your pocket or bag before you buy a ticket.

.... no physical barrier or obvious sign to warn you that you would be committing an offence if you were to pass that point without being in possession of a ticket)....

You need a sign to tell you that you have used a service and not paid for it, but still need to pay for it before you leave?

Has (the majority of) the UK population really gone so far towards not knowing right from wrong that we need signs telling us what is and is not acceptable at every turn?

I suppose shops and restaurants will soon have to have signs on the outside saying something like "No Looting" or "Taking items without paying for them is an offence".

It really is amazing the depths people will go to to avoid doing something that really is common sense and/or "the honorable thing to do".
 

WestCoast

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Has (the majority of) the UK population really gone so far towards not knowing right from wrong that we need signs telling us what is and is not acceptable at every turn?

No, I suspect many people wouldn't think of visiting the travel centre on arrival at Piccadilly, people make mistakes in a hurry and do need reminding. Plus, what if you are using the metrolink and don't pass it e.t.c. e.t.c. The whole system seems flawed.

Having a simple sign might just make a few people think and pay, increasing revenue! Isn't that what Northern wants? This isn't necessarily about doing the honorable thing, this is about efficient revenue collection. Then people are kept well informed and there can be no argument if someone doesn't visit the office upon arrival. They know what to do and if they fail to do so, then Northern can establish intent to avoid paying the fare with a more firm grounding of the claim.

It's not like Leeds where it's clear-cut if you're avoiding the fare or not. I have no problem with G4S collecting fares on arrival (well, the queues need sorting but oh well), but I think expecting people to do the "honourable thing" and detour and then queue at the travel centre is not going to occur to every passenger. Remind people with a simple A2 sized poster and there can't be a grey area over the issue.

I suppose shops and restaurants will soon have to have signs on the outside saying something like "No Looting" or "Taking items without paying for them is an offence".

The vast majority of people know that is illegal, but does the vast majority know that you must pay once you have completed your journey? Put yourself in the shoes of the unknowledgeable traveller, a simple sign is just a way of reminding people. On a pay on foot car park you have signs saying "people pay before you leave", it might seem stupid and obvious to most people, but for some it switches off "auto-pilot" and makes them do whatever is required.
 
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pemma

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I'm saying that Scenario 3 just wouldn't happen, and scenario 1 and 2 will probably only happen in the majority of cases if there was some risk of being nabbed on leaving the station.

Why not? Bring in a 100% honest traveller, say one of you guys who are preaching the rules religiously here were put into the 3 scenarios?

I have seen scenario 3 happen. It was the chairman of a rail user's group who offered to pay for his outward journey which he wasn't sold a ticket for, but it has happened.

I would say scenario 1 (paying at the ticket office at your destination) is just as open to abuse as scenario 3.
 

island

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The vast majority of people know that is illegal, but does the vast majority know that you must pay once you have completed your journey? Put yourself in the shoes of the unknowledgeable traveller, a simple sign is just a way of reminding people. On a pay on foot car park you have signs saying "people pay before you leave", it might seem stupid and obvious to most people, but for some it switches off "auto-pilot" and makes them do whatever is required.

That's probably not comparable because the barriers will stop the customer getting out of the car park without paying!
 

Deerfold

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That's probably not comparable because the barriers will stop the customer getting out of the car park without paying!

Not if it's simply a pay and display car park.

The line I live on has very few facilities for buying tickets especially very early and late. To be fair on Northern they have put in a few card-only machines recently.

But it's still perfectly possible for me to board at a fairly large station such as Keighley or Shipley. If the ticket office is shut (which it is for the first train of the day which I used to catch regularly - but only once a week so not worth having a season ticket) you can't get a ticket. The TVM is in the ticket office. The majority of stations on the line have no ticket office

In a morning the guard usually comes round collecting fares. In an evening they often don't.

There will be a large number of people perfectly willing to pay but given no opportunity. I'd suggest that conditions people to be used to not being able to pay and if they then do a different journey to perhaps not consider than the ticket office might be open at their departure station.
 

rmt-driver

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I can't actually believe we have got a private company collecting fares and dealing with these things, rather than actual railway staff... After all these g4s cowboys are just security guards aren't they?

I assume northern rail are the only company to allow this to happen ?
 

pemma

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I can't actually believe we have got a private company collecting fares and dealing with these things, rather than actual railway staff... After all these g4s cowboys are just security guards aren't they?

I assume northern rail are the only company to allow this to happen ?

Manchester Metrolink use G4S as do Virgin Trains at some stations they manage within the Northern area.

I think the only proper RPIs we see in the North West are the TransPennine Express ones.

G4S have a contract with Northern until 1st September 2013.
 

mallard

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I can't actually believe we have got a private company collecting fares and dealing with these things, rather than actual railway staff... After all these g4s cowboys are just security guards aren't they?

I assume northern rail are the only company to allow this to happen ?

Great, the "union staff defence force" again. All problems with the railways are due to non-union staff and re-employing the same people at twice the pay to do the same job as union members will immediately make all the problems go away... :roll:
 

Deerfold

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Great, the "union staff defence force" again. All problems with the railways are due to non-union staff and re-employing the same people at twice the pay to do the same job as union members will immediately make all the problems go away... :roll:

I think the problem is more undertraning of agency staff than non-unionisation (for passengers).
 

rmt-driver

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Great, the "union staff defence force" again. All problems with the railways are due to non-union staff and re-employing the same people at twice the pay to do the same job as union members will immediately make all the problems go away... :roll:

Couldn't agree with you more :D
 

ANorthernGuard

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Thank you for confirming that as that is the way I would see things.

In my opinion Northern should start installing TVMs on many stations especially those going into large conurbations like Manchester. Merseyrail have done this effectively so why not Northern. I am not talking about installing one at somewhere like Ribblehead but on say Cheshire Lines stations like Cuddington/Greenbank for example they should be installed.

That said using TVMs is not always easy. Today I went from Capenhurst to Southport with my wife and the kids (with Family railcard) I had to make a few tries to ensure I got the right ticket (adding the right number of passengers, making sure I added the railcard first etc). I commented to my wife that many passengers would be put off trying to use these machines to book a such a ticket. And I am used to using these machines!

on the mid cheshire line they are looking to install TVM's but lets be honest how long before it is destroyed if it gets installed at Greenbank? that station is a local hang out for a lot of yobs who destroy everything they can get there hands on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Hadfield line is probably one of the worst in the GM area, stations every 3-5 minutes, busy with high-capacity trains, lack of offices/TVMs, guards too busy opening and closing doors - something which hasn't been mentioned. The queues off-peak at Piccadilly can be long!

I have never managed to get through a peak train in the morning yet getting everybody on that infernal line, then as soon as it hits about 10am its even worse due to shoppers/kids etc myself and my colleagues dont stand much chance i'm afraid, I will help at the barriers if I have time but the nature of our job means its a rarity, also another thing that hinders us is we tend to run out of change alot due to the price of the tickets, it does not take much for our floatto be stripped so to speak. and another reason on top ofeverything else is the higher than avg number of idiotic drunks/druggies etc, if i ever feel unsafe I dont go out, no wage is worth putting yourself in harms way
 

island

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Apologies - I didn't read that as meaning the same as pay-on-exit but it does seem to be synonymous. I don't use car parks much.

Strictly speaking, pay and display involves paying when you arrive (and getting ticketed/clamped/etc. if you overstay), pay on foot means you get a ticket when you arrive, pay at a paystation (on foot) and use the ticket to exit, and pay on exit means you get a ticket when you arrive, drive to the exit, and pay there. :) The distinction between the latter two came in when people started blocking up the exit lanes by paying £5 in 5p pieces.

Apologies for the off-topicness!
 

table38

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...looking to install TVM's but lets be honest how long before it is destroyed if it gets installed at Greenbank?

Many years ago, we had one on the Manchester-bound platform at Flowery Field. It was one of those ruggedised cash-only affairs with a huge knob* to select the ticket. IIRC the ticket names and types were etched onto the machine itself around the dial.

Fairly vandal proof you would have thought, in fact the way it was built it would probably have survived a direct nuclear attack, but the local scrotes managed to smash open the cash box and set fire to the rest of it.

It was then relocated to the top of the path by the main road, with a strengthened cash box. Somehow that got completely uprooted and pushed down the embankment :(

* oi! stop sniggering at the back
 

hairyhandedfool

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No, I suspect many people wouldn't think of visiting the travel centre on arrival at Piccadilly, people make mistakes in a hurry and do need reminding. Plus, what if you are using the metrolink and don't pass it e.t.c. e.t.c. The whole system seems flawed....

The system does tend to rely on honour and trust and that appears to be something the world is short on right now, Perhaps automatic gates at every platform entrance/exit (with staff) is the way forward?

....Having a simple sign might just make a few people think and pay, increasing revenue! Isn't that what Northern wants? This isn't necessarily about doing the honorable thing, this is about efficient revenue collection. Then people are kept well informed and there can be no argument if someone doesn't visit the office upon arrival. They know what to do and if they fail to do so, then Northern can establish intent to avoid paying the fare with a more firm grounding of the claim....

What Northern want is maximum income with minimal outgoings, just like every other business, but a sign reminding people they might not have paid but should do is hardly going to stop people taking one look at the ticket office queue and heading straight for the exit, regardless of how quickly the line is moving, infact they might not even bother looking at the queue!

....It's not like Leeds where it's clear-cut if you're avoiding the fare or not. I have no problem with G4S collecting fares on arrival (well, the queues need sorting but oh well), but I think expecting people to do the "honourable thing" and detour and then queue at the travel centre is not going to occur to every passenger. Remind people with a simple A2 sized poster and there can't be a grey area over the issue....

Leeds is gated isn't it? Anyway, most people who haven't paid are probably thinking "oh great I haven't paid" before walking out of the station. I suspect very few would consider looking at the office, even if there were signs present.

....The vast majority of people know that is illegal, but does the vast majority know that you must pay once you have completed your journey? Put yourself in the shoes of the unknowledgeable traveller, a simple sign is just a way of reminding people. On a pay on foot car park you have signs saying "people pay before you leave", it might seem stupid and obvious to most people, but for some it switches off "auto-pilot" and makes them do whatever is required.

I thought your car could be clamped for not displaying a parking ticket? (and you would be charged to get the clamp removed) Perhaps times have changed since I was last in a Pay & Display, although not having a driving license I don't often go in them.

I have travelled many times on Metrolink and I have to pay full fare for that. Does the fact, that in the six years I have lived in Manchester I have only been asked once to show a ticket by Metrolink staff, encourage me to travel without a ticket? Or is that an excuse for ticketless travel? Would I then be 'trapped' by the Metrolink Mafia?
 

Deerfold

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I have travelled many times on Metrolink and I have to pay full fare for that. Does the fact, that in the six years I have lived in Manchester I have only been asked once to show a ticket by Metrolink staff, encourage me to travel without a ticket? Or is that an excuse for ticketless travel? Would I then be 'trapped' by the Metrolink Mafia?

Metrolink have ATMs at all stops don't they?
 

Greenback

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Metrolink have ATMs at all stops don't they?

Every Metrolink stop I've ever been at has had ticket machines, and they were working!

We must not forget that one of the key issues here is how much responsibility does the TOC have to provide adequate ticket buying facilities.
 

pemma

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I have travelled many times on Metrolink and I have to pay full fare for that. Does the fact, that in the six years I have lived in Manchester I have only been asked once to show a ticket by Metrolink staff, encourage me to travel without a ticket? Or is that an excuse for ticketless travel? Would I then be 'trapped' by the Metrolink Mafia?

I don't think Serco ever did ticket inspections when they ran Metrolink. The only time I saw non-driving members of Metrolink staff on display is when Man United were playing. At that time the fine for not having a ticket was £10, so I'm sure some people would have thought it's cheapest not to pay and to pay the £10 in the rare event of them getting caught.

When Stagecoach first took over they did seem to be doing regular ticket inspections even if not every service got one. They then seemed to relax this and instead put a large number of inspectors at a main stop checking tickets for all alighting passengers with BTP on standby.
 

snail

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I thought your car could be clamped for not displaying a parking ticket? (and you would be charged to get the clamp removed) Perhaps times have changed since I was last in a Pay & Display, although not having a driving license I don't often go in them.
Pay on foot is not Pay and Display, as explained by Island above.
I have travelled many times on Metrolink and I have to pay full fare for that. Does the fact, that in the six years I have lived in Manchester I have only been asked once to show a ticket by Metrolink staff, encourage me to travel without a ticket? Or is that an excuse for ticketless travel? Would I then be 'trapped' by the Metrolink Mafia?
All Metrolink stops have TVMs, so that's irrelevant to this discussion. I can't answer for your state of mind when travelling. :lol:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When Stagecoach first took over they did seem to be doing regular ticket inspections even if not every service got one. They then seemed to relax this and instead put a large number of inspectors at a main stop checking tickets for all alighting passengers with BTP on standby.
I've had Serco check tickets before now on the Eccles line. Their attitude to people without tickets was often to tell them to get one at the next stop (which also meant waiting for the next tram). Current practice outside the city centre appears to be a team of 5 or 6 RPIs boarding a tram, checking all tickets and dealing with offenders by taking them off the tram and sorting out the paperwork on the platform. Not that I have been close enough to find out for real, I should add! :D
 

hairyhandedfool

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Every Metrolink stop I've ever been at has had ticket machines, and they were working!

We must not forget that one of the key issues here is how much responsibility does the TOC have to provide adequate ticket buying facilities.

The older machines didn't always accept notes/cards and there have been times when machines haven't worked, even the new ones have had troubles. The only time I was asked for ticket was when the machine on the platform did not accept notes or cards and I had not long arrived on the platform (I had seen the tram coming before I was on the platform), the inspector helpfully pointed to the other platform and suggested I buy a ticket there and get the next tram. The next tram did not have an inspector on it, but imagine the uproar if it was on a National Rail service.

I accept that they are present at every stop though.

Another key point is how you define adequate ticket buying facilities, I'm not sure the travel centre at Piccadilly is particularly sub-standard, although it can suffer from long queues at times (usually when the Advance sales point is not open).
 

ANorthernGuard

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For Northern to have TVM's at all stops CCTV would also have to be fitted for security, the costs would be astronomical and would not happen in the foreseeable future, NO TOCin the right mind in this climate with the changes of franchises would do what is suggested
 

Deerfold

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For Northern to have TVM's at all stops CCTV would also have to be fitted for security, the costs would be astronomical and would not happen in the foreseeable future, NO TOCin the right mind in this climate with the changes of franchises would do what is suggested

There's definite differences between franchises though.

I compare two stations I know quite well

SON - Steeton & Silsden 600,000 pax a year. Card-only TVM. No staff.
4+ trains an hour N and S

LET - Letchworth Garden City 1,400,000 pax a year. Ticket office open Mon-Fri 0610-2000 + weekend daytimes. 3 TVMs
2 trains per hour N, 3 trains per hour S.

SON figures I suspect may be higher but people who don't pay tend not to get counted either.

I don't expect SON to get full facilites but something to make it easier (and I'm sure there are busier stations in West Yorkshire.

Keighley has more pax than Letchworth but the ticket office closes sooner and the sole TVM is locked in there.

Is this just because Letchworth is in the South?
 

Tomonthetrain

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I thought your car could be clamped for not displaying a parking ticket? (and you would be charged to get the clamp removed) Perhaps times have changed since I was last in a Pay & Display, although not having a driving license I don't often go in them.

It kinda depends on if it's a municipal (council) car park or a private car park. I deal in municipal P&D car parks and if it don't have a ticket, it gets fined!
 

richw

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It kinda depends on if it's a municipal (council) car park or a private car park. I deal in municipal P&D car parks and if it don't have a ticket, it gets fined!

if im not mistaken clamping is soon to become illegal on private land.
 
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