Staff pass vs Virgin rail-ongoing

[ssray]

Morning, I currently travel from birmingham new street to London Euston as a daily commute, I have a TFL staff pass that covers me form Watford jct to Euston.

Virgin will not issue me a season ticket between new street and watford and will not accept the valadity of my staff pass, making me pay from New street to euston, over £8k per year instead of just over £7k if my pass was accepted.

I have written to Virgin, including Tony Collins the ceo, Tfl(who have always said its valid and virgin are naughty), ATOC,Network and national rails, London rail and the london passanger forum type thing.

I have been doing this commute for the past 4 years and have so far got nowere, if i was pre 1996 I can print out from the atoc members website the validity of the passes accepted but nothing post 1996.

Anybody have any ideas where i can turn next or how to force Virgin to sell me the cheaper ticket?

Thanks
Ray

 

[Mojo]

What do you mean Virgin will not sell you this ticket? Why can't you just go to a ticket office and buy a ticket from Birmingham to Watford? No need to mention your staff pass, which is perfectly valid.

 

[ssray]

At Euston they have refused to sell me the ticket and have allways stated that my staff pass is not valid on their trains.

There Revenue staff have been told that our staff passes are not valid and will not allow you to pass when they `barrier` the gateline.

Ray

 

[AlterEgo]

You cannot do this under Condition 19, strictly speaking. Only if:

one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not

could this be possible. Essentially, you have two season tickets, which precludes splitting the journey at Watford Junction, as this is not an open stop (you may not board there for London).

It's complicated, but it needn't be. Surely your staff travel facilities office can confirm the situation and sort out with Virgin?

TfL isn't a "passenger transport executive" as far as I'm aware...?

 

[ssray]

Tfl have written to virgin.

One option i have is to buy the ticket from new street to watford and arrange to be penalty faired upon arrival at euston, if i`m wrong tfl will have to pay the fine if i`m not virgin will have to accept it.

Ray

 

[Mojo]

You cannot do this under Condition 19, strictly speaking. Only if:

could this be possible. Essentially, you have two season tickets, which precludes splitting the journey at Watford Junction, as this is not an open stop (you may not board there for London).

It's complicated, but it needn't be. Surely your staff travel facilities office can confirm the situation and sort out with Virgin?

TfL isn't a "passenger transport executive" as far as I'm aware...?

There is an agreement between Virgin Trains and TfL that TfL staff passes are valid on Virgin Trains services between Watford Junction and Euston, when combined with another ticket. This is quite clear and there is no clarification required - in any case from what the OP says it is quite clear they have clarified its validity.

Ray - I know someone who uses Virgin services between Watford and Euston when travelling from Milton Keynes (season held Watford - Milton Keynes) and has reported no issues. Virgin Trains do not operate a Penalty Fares scheme.

You do not need to mention when buying a ticket you are combining it with a staff pass.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Aren't TfL part of the Greater London Authority?

 

[AlterEgo]

There is an agreement between Virgin Trains and TfL that TfL staff passes are valid on Virgin Trains services between Watford Junction and Euston, when combined with another ticket.

The two staff travel departments ought to speak then, rather than going via the customer-facing parts of the business. Booking offices may not know about this.

I strongly suggest a call to your staff travel facilities department who really ought to be able to sort this on one phone call.

 

[ssray]

I went to birmingham last year to renew my season ticket but they would not help as my ticket account is at euston.

Virgin revenue protection are under the impression that the pass is not valid also some Train managers accept the staff pass and some will ask you to leave the train, a colleague's pregnant girl friend was even asked to leave the train about 6 weeks ago, will have more info on that as she is giving birth this weekend.

Ray
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I strongly suggest a call to your staff travel facilities department who really ought to be able to sort this on one phone call.

Been there, no good so far.

Letter to the mayor was sent about a week ago, dont expect too much too soon.

Ray

 

[AlterEgo]

The pass (I believe) isn't valid strictly according to Condition 19, but if there is a special exception organised at a high level, then front-line staff may not know about this.

What did your staff travel facilities department actually say?

 

[ssray]

I have had nothing in wrighting, just a screen print from our intrenet.

The last contact I gad was a phone call telling me that Virgin were being written too, nothing heard since-was possibly 6 mths ago.

Ray

 

[swadbus]

Morning, I currently travel from birmingham new street to London Euston as a daily commute, I have a TFL staff pass that covers me form Watford jct to Euston.

Virgin will not issue me a season ticket between new street and watford and will not accept the valadity of my staff pass, making me pay from New street to euston, over £8k per year instead of just over £7k if my pass was accepted.

I have written to Virgin, including Tony Collins the ceo, Tfl(who have always said its valid and virgin are naughty), ATOC,Network and national rails, London rail and the london passanger forum type thing.

I have been doing this commute for the past 4 years and have so far got nowere, if i was pre 1996 I can print out from the atoc members website the validity of the passes accepted but nothing post 1996.

Anybody have any ideas where i can turn next or how to force Virgin to sell me the cheaper ticket?

Thanks
Ray

Hi Ray,

I have had similar issues, using my TFL staff pass on Virgin, but I just gave up in the end as i often travel to Milton Keynes but now just use my PRIV to get the virgin trains only ticket from Euston.

Fortunately, I have a 2 page PDF document issued by TFL ticketing and revenue team to staff that is dated May 2010. This clarifies staff travel arrangements that shows clearly that our TFL staff pass is valid on Virgin Trains between Euston and Watford Junction.

If you PM me with your email address, I will email it to you. Let me know how you get on, as obviously it has implications for a lot of other staff pass holders too.

Cheers,

Stuart.

 

[ssray]

Hi Ray,

I have had similar issues, using my TFL staff pass on Virgin, but I just gave up in the end as i often travel to Milton Keynes but now just use my PRIV to get the virgin trains only ticket from Euston.

Fortunately, I have a 2 page PDF document issued by TFL ticketing and revenue team to staff that is dated May 2010. This clarifies staff travel arrangements that shows clearly that our TFL staff pass is valid on Virgin Trains between Euston and Watford Junction.

If you PM me with your email address, I will email it to you. Let me know how you get on, as obviously it has implications for a lot of other staff pass holders too.

Cheers,

Stuart.

Thanks Stuart,

I only found you lot today so my account is not fully up to speed but if you email to removed.

Thank you

Ray

 

[DarloRich]

Ray - If you are in the union give them a call as well.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks Stuart,

I only found you lot today so my account is not fully up to speed but if you email to Removed.

Thank you

Ray

You should be able to PM now you have over 5 posts.

 

[yorkie]

Tfl have written to virgin.

What did they say?

If the staff pass does count as a "Season ticket" then the combination is not valid.

If the staff pass does not count as a "Season ticket" then the combination is valid, and the train does not need to call at Watford Jn.

However it sounds like special arrangements apply to these passes, making them valid.

One option i have is to buy the ticket from new street to watford and arrange to be penalty faired upon arrival at euston

You cannot "arrange" to be given a Penalty Fare. Furthermore, Penalty Fares do not apply for travel with Virgin Trains.

if i'm wrong tfl will have to pay the fine if i'm not virgin will have to accept it.
Ray

If you are "wrong" you will be asked to pay the Anytime Single (or return) fare from Watford to London. If you refuse to pay it, and a court judges you in the wrong, then the fine (and criminal record) would apply to you, not TfL. However it is important to note that a fine cannot be issued by Virgin, all they can do is request payment of the fare (£8.30 single or £14.00 return) and nothing more than that, it is only if you refuse to pay it, and your appeal is rejected, and it goes to court, and if you then lose, that then you can be fined. A fine is not issued on the spot!

Anyway others have confirmed you are not wrong!

 

[185]

Wouldn't be the first time that the RPIs at Euston have been picking on other operator's staff.

 

[yorkie]

Wouldn't be the first time that the RPIs at Euston have been picking on other operator's staff.

Some RPIs at Euston have acted appallingly when customers have been in the right. However if their name is taken, and a good letter is sent to Virgin Customer Services (I will help drafting it) then the RPI will be dealt with and a refund & apology given by Virgin. I know this from experience (the Lancaster-Winchester route Banbury ticket, for example) Customer Services are aware of the problems at Euston, and I am hoping that such incidents will be reducing.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ssray, I don't appear to be able to PM you...thought that once you had five posts on this forum the facility became available?

 

[swadbus]

Thanks Stuart,

I only found you lot today so my account is not fully up to speed but if you email to removed.

Thank you

Ray

Sent.

 

[yorkie]

Ssray, I don't appear to be able to PM you...thought that once you had five posts on this forum the facility became available?

There is a time delay for this to take effect. He has also posted his email address here.

 

[John @ home]

Aren't TfL part of the Greater London Authority?

No. Despite the information on this Wikipedia page, the Greater London Authority (GLA) is a body corporate established by the Greater London Authority Act 1999 (GLA Act), not a local authority. It does not appear on the government's A-Z of Local Authorities.

Transport for London is statutory corporation governed by the GLA Act and regulated under local government finance rules. It is not part of the GLA but, together with the GLA and three other bodies, it forms the GLA group of bodies whose budgets are set by the Mayor of London.

 

[AlterEgo]

I believe any arrangement which exists would "trump" Condition 19, making it irrelevant. I'm sure it would be a mutual agreement at a corporate level.

 

[John @ home]

I believe any arrangement which exists would "trump" Condition 19, making it irrelevant. I'm sure it would be a mutual agreement at a corporate level.

Arrangement between whom? The passenger's rights under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage cannot be diluted by an arrangement between train companies.

National Rail Conditions of Carriage

These Conditions set out your rights and any restrictions to those rights. The Train Companies may give you more extensive rights than those set out in these Conditions and, if they do so, these may be found in each Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter or other publications. Details of where you can find this information will be available when you buy your ticket. The Train Companies may not give you less extensive rights, except in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets where the relevant condition(s) specifically allow them to do so. These Conditions set out the minimum level of rights you are entitled to expect.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

 

[AlterEgo]

Now I'm confused. Are we saying the ticket is not valid regardless of any agreement that may exist?

Taken on it's own, I believe a season ticket with a TfL staff pass does not satisfy Condition 19, as the staff pass qualifies, in my view, as another season ticket. However waiving of certain rights under the NRCoC occurs on a daily basis, and I don't find it impossible that an agreement that might exist between two parties could be binding.

 

[yorkie]

If the agreement gives the passenger more rights, then that's absolutely fine.

 

[First class]

If the agreement gives the passenger more rights, then that's absolutely fine.

How does general Rail Staff Travel work then? I assume it uses this:

The Train Companies may not give you less extensive
rights, except in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets where
the relevant condition(s) specifically allow them to do so.

So in this case, a PRIV or "relevant condition" can trump the NRCoC.

This is used in practice:

A PRIV is not valid on Open Access Operators or on certain services (times).

This can mean

1) An Anytime ticket is, not, actually valid, at ANY TIME.

2) An "Any Permitted" ticket, is not, actually valid, on a permitted route, due to an operator restriction which isn't shown on the ticket (or PRIV) so does not comply with B-10 NRCoC.

 

[yorkie]

First class - The OP appears to already know his pass is valid to combine with a Birmingham - Watford ticket on Virgin and TfL are backing him up. It's valid if the pass does not count as a season ticket and/or if there is a special concession in place, and TfL staff have now confirmed the latter applies. There was a suggestion that the agreement could not over-rule the NRCoC, I think you are in dispute with that suggestion, though I didn't make it, but I did point out that there is no issue if more rights are being given than the NRCoC provides, which is what Alter Ego was earlier suggesting (I think).

TfL staff have stated the combination of tickets is valid, therefore as far as I am concerned, the debate is over, Virgin barrier staff are wrong - again, not exactly an uncommon occurrence!

Hopefully the OP will get a satisfactory response and the often wrong barrier staff will, again, be given suitable words of advice. Well, they'd better be!

 

[swadbus]

I've spoken to the OP via email, but think it would be prudent to keep the forum members up to date too as it has potential to affect quite a few members.

 

[AlterEgo]

I did point out that there is no issue if more rights are being given than the NRCoC provides, which is what Alter Ego was earlier suggesting (I think).

Yes, that's the point I was making. A passenger may not be given less extensive rights, but there is no issue with them being given more extensive rights. In this case the agreement apparently involves Virgin overlooking Condition 19.

TOCs waive their own rights on a daily basis - it's part of running the operational railway. If Mojo and others say the agreement exists then I can well believe that.

I have to say that I am quite sure that front line staff are unaware of this situation. I am sure a short telephone call between TfL and VT staff travel would sort this quite quickly, and I'm surprised it's gone on for so long.