It wouldn't have been any use to the OP in these circumstances if the accompanying payment card was in his wallet - and possibly the print out itself.
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Lost ticket and unpaid fare notice (Leeds-London on EC)
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
No, but a Print@Home ticket is personalised. It cannot be used by anyone other than the purchaser. While he'd probably still have been UFN'd, he'd have a much easier job in convincing East Coast after the event that he really had lost his ticket/wallet, and not passed it to a third party or sold it on.
Print@Home is the way forward for InterCity travel.
LondonJohn
Member
There is giving advice and help and there is being downright nasty about it. Clyde (or the girl that lost her season ticket) hasn't come here to be talked down to, ridiculed or humiliated.
Its all in the way that the message or information is delivered and it saddens me that people in such a highly praised forum act in such a manner.
Flamingo
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Having read the thread, and Clyde's replies, I think that his reply to Dave's first post
has both summarised his attitude, and may explain why so many of the replies to his posts might be described as "exasperated". What part of it does he not get?
Keeping pandering to his victimisation attitude might give certain posters a feel-good feeling, but does not help his original problem, which is a failure to accept that ***** happens, it's his own fault that the ticket was lost, and he has to take responsibility for his own life sometime.
BTW, just to raise a little point he seems to be unsure of, he signed the UPFN to indicate that the terms of it had been explained to him, nothing else. Failure to sign it will not prevent issuing of it, but might result in it becoming a matter for BTP attention
Anyway as he had a bike, he always had the option of getting off at the next stop and using it!
has both summarised his attitude, and may explain why so many of the replies to his posts might be described as "exasperated". What part of it does he not get?
Keeping pandering to his victimisation attitude might give certain posters a feel-good feeling, but does not help his original problem, which is a failure to accept that ***** happens, it's his own fault that the ticket was lost, and he has to take responsibility for his own life sometime.
BTW, just to raise a little point he seems to be unsure of, he signed the UPFN to indicate that the terms of it had been explained to him, nothing else. Failure to sign it will not prevent issuing of it, but might result in it becoming a matter for BTP attention
Anyway as he had a bike, he always had the option of getting off at the next stop and using it!
LondonJohn, the way I saw it was that Clyde asked for assistance, DaveNewcastle offered his advice and then Clyde decided he didn't like that advice, and elected to criticise one of the most knowledgeable members of this forum! Predictably, this then resulted in other members leaping to his defence.
Still, I remain hopeful that given the right approach, some discretion may be shown by East Coast. That's entirely up to them though...
Still, I remain hopeful that given the right approach, some discretion may be shown by East Coast. That's entirely up to them though...
Flamingo
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But if he persists with his attitude and approach, then expect a trip to court in about 3-4 months time.
Just to clarify here, simply because you seem to be shouting down practically anyone who has replied in the thread as being "holier than thou", and trying to reinforce your view by using the comment I have quoted above........
It was the OP who made the pointless comparisons about other modes of transport, nobody else.
Hopefully not! The thing that concerned me about his original letter was his assumption that it would cost East Coast to prosecute him in Court. Hmmmm, as they'll charge him Costs as well, I'd say there won't be much in the way of costs for East Coast to pay. It really would be better to settle this before that stage.....
graham43404
Member
While that is the idea in theory it is not always the case in practice. A lot of the time we have travelled using print at home we have never had to show the ID we should have had to show while using a print at home ticket.
Virgin are 50/50 using them, likewise Cross Country. But not once on EC have we been asked to show ID, it has either just been stamped or scanned with the barcode reader they have.
Unless you want to buy a ticket for someone else to use.
...which puts us back at the question of what happens if you lose your ticket.
If you get a PDF with the ticket/barcode, you could easily forward that email. Far easier than getting physical tickets and giving them to someone else by post.
When I get e-tickets, I save the PDFs (or create a PDF by printing to PDF instead of paper) and put it into my Dropbox - which means I can access it on my mobile that way.
These tickets need to be validated properly or they won't work in the long run.
When I get e-tickets, I save the PDFs (or create a PDF by printing to PDF instead of paper) and put it into my Dropbox - which means I can access it on my mobile that way.
These tickets need to be validated properly or they won't work in the long run.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Clyde, may I suggest you take a step back for a second.
You bought a ticket to travel from Leeds to London, and part of the conditions that you agreed to when you bought that ticket (the National Rail Conditions of Carriage) was that you would produce it for inspection when asked, or purchase a new one. You were unable to do the former, and were given a bill for a new ticket.
It is not East Coast's fault that you lost the ticket, nor am I saying it is yours, but they should not be expected to waive their side of the contract just because you were unable to perform yours.
As unpalatable as this may seem, I very much doubt you will get an answer from this forum saying "you're right, you shouldn't have been charged anything, and East Coast is showing awful customer service by not helping you out".
If you start from the position that you are due to pay £135 forthwith (not that I am altogether sure where that figure came from, as Leeds to London on-board fare is £119.50), you will have to rely on East Coast's goodwill and commercial sensibleness to either (a) bring that figure down or (b) grant you additional time to pay. I wouldn't recommend engaging further with RPSS; all they'll say is "pay up or see you in court". East Coast may waive all or part of the cost, or agree an instalment payment plan if you explain your circumstances.
Going on the aggressive with them, as you have done with several of my esteemed co-contributors here, is entirely likely to result in you ending up in court, either defending a civil case or prosecuted under the rail bye-laws for failing to show a ticket.
You bought a ticket to travel from Leeds to London, and part of the conditions that you agreed to when you bought that ticket (the National Rail Conditions of Carriage) was that you would produce it for inspection when asked, or purchase a new one. You were unable to do the former, and were given a bill for a new ticket.
It is not East Coast's fault that you lost the ticket, nor am I saying it is yours, but they should not be expected to waive their side of the contract just because you were unable to perform yours.
As unpalatable as this may seem, I very much doubt you will get an answer from this forum saying "you're right, you shouldn't have been charged anything, and East Coast is showing awful customer service by not helping you out".
If you start from the position that you are due to pay £135 forthwith (not that I am altogether sure where that figure came from, as Leeds to London on-board fare is £119.50), you will have to rely on East Coast's goodwill and commercial sensibleness to either (a) bring that figure down or (b) grant you additional time to pay. I wouldn't recommend engaging further with RPSS; all they'll say is "pay up or see you in court". East Coast may waive all or part of the cost, or agree an instalment payment plan if you explain your circumstances.
Going on the aggressive with them, as you have done with several of my esteemed co-contributors here, is entirely likely to result in you ending up in court, either defending a civil case or prosecuted under the rail bye-laws for failing to show a ticket.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
An administration of £15 is likely to have been added by RPSS because of the length of time this has taken.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
I guess that this is the correct explanation too.
Its worth bearing in mind that costs may continue to increase over time if a settlement isn't paid or at least agreed soon. Debt Collection incurrs a fee for every attempt to collect (in most matters, even if the original Claim is waived, Debt Collectors will, if their contract allows it, still charge for their own time).
You forward the PDF and someone can print at their end.
And I keep the PDF as a backup in case something happened to the paper printout. Now, it's different perhaps on a train as you need to produce the physical ticket - but for flying, as an example, they can accept the PDF and scan the barcode on the screen.
This is in reverse of the other ticket apps that only have the ticket on your phone and can't be replaced if the app crashes, the battery fails or your phone is lost/stolen - as per the m-ticket thread.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Good point, well made!
But I thought you also needed to present the payment card used? Not a lot of use if someone else has paid and isn't travelling with you.
I don't know about that. I don't need to do that when boarding a plane, so can't comment on how it may or may not work on a train with various systems that need to be standardised to become easier for the public to accept/understand/use.
LexyBoy
Established Member
I don't see Print@Home helping, unless it connects to a central ticketing database. If you don't have the printout or card with you, a UPFN would still be issued, and the TOC would again not know if the ticket had been used or not (someone else could have the card, or just be banking on it not being checked).
If the print@home ticket is an allocated train/seat, I'd expect not to even be asked for my payment card. I am not even sure why they should ask for this, as the right way would be to scan the code and that code is then marked as used.
Of course, you need staff to have connected devices but that's not asking that much is it? I mean, most people have 24/7 connected devices (or more than one) with them all the time. Most PDAs now have Wi-Fi and 3G connectivity as standard, and any decent software could cope with the signal coming and going as happens at times on a train.
Needing your payment card to collect a physical ticket from a machine is a bit different. However, you should offer choices and the payment card could be used as it's the quickest, but otherwise you enter a reference number. Once issued, you can't get another as the paper ticket is like cash! It's different for the e-ticket, where you can kill it to stop it being possible to use incorrectly.
Of course, you need staff to have connected devices but that's not asking that much is it? I mean, most people have 24/7 connected devices (or more than one) with them all the time. Most PDAs now have Wi-Fi and 3G connectivity as standard, and any decent software could cope with the signal coming and going as happens at times on a train.
Needing your payment card to collect a physical ticket from a machine is a bit different. However, you should offer choices and the payment card could be used as it's the quickest, but otherwise you enter a reference number. Once issued, you can't get another as the paper ticket is like cash! It's different for the e-ticket, where you can kill it to stop it being possible to use incorrectly.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Live checking, I believe, is very close to being rolled out on other TOCs - maybe next year.
LondonJohn
Member
As I mentioned in my earlier post the guy is clearly hacked off with the system and understandbly so. He appears to be an inexperienced rail user not used to the intracasies of railway ticketing. He needed help and advice and whilst he didn't like answer, its no excuse for the patronising comments made me a few posters here. Seemingly the same people giving out "advice" to the girl that has lost 2 season tickets.
Whilst I understand that technically both original posters are in the wrong the holier than thou attitude on here from certain people and the way their responses have been delivered has disappointed me to the extent that I am thinking well actually this is maybe a forum that I don't want to participate in.
Constructive advice can be delivered without the snide nasty comments.
It appears the system is flawed against the consumer (m ticket cant be replaced on stolen phone, lost wallet/ticket and then given an UPFN, got on wrong train due to late running earlier service and forced to pay extra £90 when unable to get off, second season ticket in a 12 month period lost stolen. with no recourse because actually they might not check properly the person using the ticket (fraudlently) without the photocard.....
I would have thought that one of the main advantages functions of the forum would be to lobby to get things changed and not penalise the person that has made the innocent mistake as opposed to (serial) fare evaders.
What has made me even more angry about this and the rail system is tonight,
I travelled from Waterloo to Woolston and wanted to pop out to the shops at Southampton Central whilst waiting for the Portsmouth stopping service. There were 3 people in front of me that got on somewhere without tickets and asked to buy one. The guy manning the barrier pointed to the penalty fares notice on the side of the gateline kiosk He then told them on this ocassion he would let them off and that in future they would need to buy a ticket. I don't think they had travelled far but that is not the point. I bought a ticket for my journey, why should 3 people be let off for travelling without a ticket yet a poor guy that lost a ticket is potentially being heavily out of pocket despite having bought a ticket due to an unfortunate incident.
Interestingly, the gateline is one where on this thread a person was told his ticket was not valid!!!!! Inconsistencies...
Old Timer
Established Member
I dont think anyone has given out patronising advice whatsoever. There are no intricacies in dispute here at all. The people concerned are aggrieved that the Railway will not give them (a) a free ride when there is no prooof that the ticket was lost, and (b) supply a second replacement season ticket when claimed that the first had been stolen but the person could not even be bothered to report it to the Police.
Neither person has yet exhausted opportunities to plead dispensation but have jumped on here to complain and expect everyone to sympathise with them. Unfortunately there are terms and conditions asttached to tickets in the same way as there are other items. A work colleague recently bought a very expensive new phone and has managed to loose it.
All his contacts, etc are lost with it. He had not insured it or registered it. He simply shrugged his shoulders and accepted that these things happen. He did not go onto a mobile phone forum raging at the fact that the shop would not give him a free replacement on his word that it had been stolen, even though stolen phones can be stopped quickly these days rendering them unusable. Surely the fact that the phone can be stopped should allow the issue of a free replacement but I doubt anyone on here would even contemplate even asking the shop to give them a free replacement.
No one has explained to the many that have asked the question as to WHY the Railway should be so different to any other business. Why is it that people expect to quite happily lose tickets and then believe that the Railway should simply issue a new one.
No other transport organisation is expected to do so, and if you had read the whole thread you will see that unlike East Coast, National Express will make you pay for the replacement ticket. No free ride there. Similarly the only reason airlines will repalce a lost ticket (at a variety of different fees) is because the ticket can be picked up at checkin, unlike the Railway.
Please explain why the Railway has to be so different from any other mode of transport ?
Because all the others simply complain yet cannot back up their moans by any logical reason why.
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Flamingo
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John, sorry you feel that way, lets explain a few points:
The railway is about the only form of transport where passengers are allowed to travel without being forced to show their ticket or other permit to travel before boarding. The result of this is that there has to be a system of deterrence in place, along with penalties for those who may be attempting to defraud the system.
The system is pretty simple at it's core: You have a valid ticket, you buy a valid ticket, or you give your name and address and get billed for a valid ticket.
If you lose your valid ticket, then there are systems in place to follow. In the case of season tickets, a replacement will be issued in the first instance, in the place of single journey tickets, then an "invoice" will be issued to allow ten days to pay for a new ticket, and to get you home.
If you think another system should be in place, then the best place you could start is with your MP, as although the railways are privatized, they are still micromanaged by the Department of Transport, which is answerable to parliament.
If your objection is to the forum itself, well, the posters have come of their own volition into an anonymous forum for free advice. This does not mean that either their story will be automatically believed without question, or that their own shortcomings and mistakes will not be criticized. Such is the way of the world, and definitely of the internet. I don't think that any posters in either thread broke any Forum rules of conduct (but this is up to a mod to decide.
But don't come on to any internet forum if you think that a "free ride" will be offered. There are always two sides to every story or argument, somebody will always be around to put the other side. That is a fact of life, and especially of t'net.
And as regards the OP's in both threads, they fell foul of the T&C they agreed to when they chose that mode of transport. Most people manage to abide by them, and they have in general been put in place to protect the vast majority of rail passengers fromsubsiding the ones who don't want to pay. Everybody can give an excuse (especially when they have gone home and had a chance to work on their story for a while before posting it), and I have heard most of them.
What can be done about this I'm not sure, but if you think the T&C should be altered, again, your MP is a good place to start.
Stick around if you want, you might be surprised at what you can learn on here, but if you are expecting nobody to be criticized or questioned, this might not be the best place for you.
The railway is about the only form of transport where passengers are allowed to travel without being forced to show their ticket or other permit to travel before boarding. The result of this is that there has to be a system of deterrence in place, along with penalties for those who may be attempting to defraud the system.
The system is pretty simple at it's core: You have a valid ticket, you buy a valid ticket, or you give your name and address and get billed for a valid ticket.
If you lose your valid ticket, then there are systems in place to follow. In the case of season tickets, a replacement will be issued in the first instance, in the place of single journey tickets, then an "invoice" will be issued to allow ten days to pay for a new ticket, and to get you home.
If you think another system should be in place, then the best place you could start is with your MP, as although the railways are privatized, they are still micromanaged by the Department of Transport, which is answerable to parliament.
If your objection is to the forum itself, well, the posters have come of their own volition into an anonymous forum for free advice. This does not mean that either their story will be automatically believed without question, or that their own shortcomings and mistakes will not be criticized. Such is the way of the world, and definitely of the internet. I don't think that any posters in either thread broke any Forum rules of conduct (but this is up to a mod to decide.
But don't come on to any internet forum if you think that a "free ride" will be offered. There are always two sides to every story or argument, somebody will always be around to put the other side. That is a fact of life, and especially of t'net.
And as regards the OP's in both threads, they fell foul of the T&C they agreed to when they chose that mode of transport. Most people manage to abide by them, and they have in general been put in place to protect the vast majority of rail passengers fromsubsiding the ones who don't want to pay. Everybody can give an excuse (especially when they have gone home and had a chance to work on their story for a while before posting it), and I have heard most of them.
What can be done about this I'm not sure, but if you think the T&C should be altered, again, your MP is a good place to start.
Stick around if you want, you might be surprised at what you can learn on here, but if you are expecting nobody to be criticized or questioned, this might not be the best place for you.
If you have any concerns, feel free to contact a member of the moderation team. But if you spot a particular post that you feel is inappropriate, please report it using the report button to the bottom left of each post. (
Absolutely. I've not had time to read through this topic unfortunately (I used to be able to read all topics posted in this section of the forum, but it's too busy now) but if there are any nasty comments please do report them to us (all reports are confidential) using the report button on the post(s) that are inappropriate. Don't leave it for others to do; indeed if more than one person reports a post it puts all the complaints together as one and we can see that several people are unhappy with it.
This feedback is absolutely vital to us, as it is likely that most of the approx 1200 posts made on this forum each day go unread by moderators, so we're often unaware of issues if they go unreported.
Absolutely. Fortunately we can assist by providing advice on how not to be caught out, and if people are, what they can do about it. Unfortunately sometimes even the best advice we give may not satisfy the original poster ('OP'). Some members are better at giving advice than others and this is unavoidable, but at some point we do plan to train some members to become 'Fare Advisers'
The forum itself does not do that, but many members do.
The forum and its members will not penalise anyone. The rail companies may act in a way that is perceived as penalising people, unfortunately we are unable to prevent this happening. If the rail companies act in a way that many people believe is morally wrong, but is in fact correct and within the rules, then this may be bad news but it is better that honest advice is given out (even if this is not to the OPs liking) than incorrect advice that offers false hope.
Did the guard sell them a ticket? If so, they were treated by the guard in an identical way to the OP, ie no ticket was presented and a ticket was sold, presumably at the Anytime rate.
The passengers you refer to were not charged a PF but neither was the OP in this case. Guards on SWT services cannot issue PFs.
The quality of gateline staff is inconsistent. Some are absolutely brilliant, friendly, and knowledgeable. Some less so unfortunately.
LondonJohn
Member
"Did the guard sell them a ticket? If so, they were treated by the guard in an identical way to the OP, ie no ticket was presented and a ticket was sold, presumably at the Anytime rate.
The passengers you refer to were not charged a PF but neither was the OP in this case. Guards on SWT services cannot issue PFs."
They had no tickets at all (or presented no tickets to the gateline attendant). A couple of trains has just arrived so the attendants were busy letting people come and go. He drew their attention to the Penalty Fares notice on the side of the kiosk on The Mayflower Theatre side whilst letting people come and gotr and then told them they needed to buy a ticket before travelling in future and opened the gate and let them through. No tickets were sold at the time.
"The quality of gateline staff is inconsistent. Some are absolutely brilliant, friendly, and knowledgeable. Some less so unfortunately."
Seems this is also the case with a fair few number of rail staff and then leaving customers in the lurch making statements to which they are not entitled.
A few threads on here and what I saw at Southampton Central station this evening really does indicate how rubbish our ticketing system is and our Train Operating Companies.
I have a good mind to report the matter to South West Trains and asking them when I would be allowed to travel without a ticket but could almost write their fob off response myself.
The passengers you refer to were not charged a PF but neither was the OP in this case. Guards on SWT services cannot issue PFs."
They had no tickets at all (or presented no tickets to the gateline attendant). A couple of trains has just arrived so the attendants were busy letting people come and go. He drew their attention to the Penalty Fares notice on the side of the kiosk on The Mayflower Theatre side whilst letting people come and gotr and then told them they needed to buy a ticket before travelling in future and opened the gate and let them through. No tickets were sold at the time.
"The quality of gateline staff is inconsistent. Some are absolutely brilliant, friendly, and knowledgeable. Some less so unfortunately."
Seems this is also the case with a fair few number of rail staff and then leaving customers in the lurch making statements to which they are not entitled.
A few threads on here and what I saw at Southampton Central station this evening really does indicate how rubbish our ticketing system is and our Train Operating Companies.
I have a good mind to report the matter to South West Trains and asking them when I would be allowed to travel without a ticket but could almost write their fob off response myself.
I'd suggest rereading the thread, there is a lot of patronising replies. Some of your replies may come across as abrupt, despite the info your providing being correct, I think you should consider how you word them, as I suspect this may be what has upset the OP, who came here for advice and has received unnecessary responses. The lady who lost her gold card has been accused of fraud by some. I'm pretty sure making such accusations are illegal to make without grounds to, or evidence to support.
These things can make this forum very unwelcoming to a newbie.
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