'Big man' vs Sam Main incident (final decision: no charges for either)

[LondonJohn]

Well, seeing as he's an investment banker and it's unlikely that this is the sort of thing he's likely to do during the working day, then no, they have nothing to worry about.

Sadly or not depending on how you look at it his employers are not best pleased with his actions. I believe he is also out of the office "until the dust has settled"

Still, I firmly believe that the relevant employers/educational establishments and the BTP will take the most appropriate course of action they deem necessary. I also hope that people learn from the consequences of their actions.

 

[telecaster]

At the same time, ScotRail has revealed that the unnamed ticket inspector has been put on annual leave while the matter is investigated, amid reports that the man will be either sacked or disciplined for allowing Pollock to forcibly eject the student.

That's the saddest part of this whole story for me & I hope First Scotrail, wont take steps that cost the Conductor his job.
I dont think he deserves that from what i've seen from that clip on Youtube.

 

[LCC106]

I can't see how "The Big Man's" actions could bring his employer in to disrepute - therefore the act to keep him out of the office serves only to delay office (banter?) (chatter?) to his return.

The ticket inspector has been out on annual leave? Well, depending on whether or not the holiday year ends this month he may be due it anyway. If he has been suspended on full pay, however, that may be a different matter.

In terms of "allowing Pollock to forcibly eject the student" the TOC would need reasonable belief that the TI knew force would be used. I would find it difficult to see this as gross misconduct warranting dismissal, but I don't have all the evidence / facts or knowledge of the employee's previous record.

Interesting to see what happens since (and I now I keep banging on about it) I work in HR (but hopefully not for long!)

 

[amcluesent]

Surely an investment bankster would be in FC?

 

[LCC106]

Surely an investment bankster would be in FC?

Sorry, not sure what FC means?

 

[AlterEgo]

First Class...

 

[LCC106]

Ha ha!

 

[Aictos]

Which byelaw are you referring to? I don't believe there is a byelaw regarding 'interfering with the duties of a railway official'. The closest I can think of is molesting or wilfully interfering with the comfort or convenience of a person on the railway (6(8)?), which I suppose could be used depending on the circumstances, or disobeying reasonable instructions relating to safety.

6. Unacceptable behaviour

(1) No person shall use any threatening, abusive, obscene or offensive language on the railway.

(2) No person shall behave in a disorderly, indecent or offensive manner on the railway.

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

23. Name and address

(1) Any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or attempting to breach any of these Byelaws shall give his name and address when asked by an authorised person.

(2) The authorised person asking for details under Byelaw 23(1) shall state the nature of the breach of any of these Byelaws in general terms at the time of the request.

24. Enforcement

(2) Removal of persons

(i) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws shall leave the railway immediately if asked to do so by an authorised person.

(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these Byelaws.

 

[HawkeyeTheNoo]

The plot thickens!

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...reveal-student-was-sold-wrong-ticket.16216486

THE student who was bundled off a train by a fellow passenger after failing to produce a valid ticket was sold the wrong ticket earlier in the day, subsequent investigations have confirmed.
inShare.0
Custom byline text: DAMIEN HENDERSON Transport Correspondent
Sam Main, 19, was shown apparently being lifted from his seat and ejected by Alan Pollock after swearing at an elderly conductor. He subsequently claimed he had paid the fare for the journey.

However, The Herald has learned the video was shot following an earlier incident – not shown on YouTube – in which Mr Main allegedly attempted to trip the conductor by putting his leg in the aisle.


It is understood that both Mr Main and Mr Pollock may now face criminal charges in relation to the incident, which occurred on the 9.33pm train from Edinburgh to Perth on December 9.

British Transport Police launched an investigation after receiving a complaint of assault last week by Mr Main, from Falkirk, who is studying building and surveying at Edinburgh's Heriot-Watt University.

The conductor, who has not been named, is on annual leave amid a separate investigation by ScotRail.

Sources close to the investigations have confirmed Mr Main's claim, made last week, that he had tried to buy two single tickets, one from Polmont to Edinburgh Park and another in the return direction (and using his student railcard), because he was unable to use his railcard for the outward journey before 10am.

Mr Main said the conductor at Polmont had instead given him two tickets for the same journey, one full fare and one at a discounted price using his railcard, but it was only when he got on the train that evening he realised he had two Polmont-to-Edinburgh Park tickets.

CCTV footage from the train from Edinburgh shows that an argument broke out after the conductor asked Mr Main for his ticket shortly after departure, sources said.

It shows the conductor stepping over on obstacle after the argument, though the view of the aisle is blocked by another passenger.

It is understood the conductor has claimed that Mr Main tried to trip him by putting his leg into the aisle and said that the student became abusive during the argument and started swearing when asked to produce a valid ticket.

However, the footage uploaded to YouTube was filmed later, when the conductor returned and repeatedly ordered Mr Main to leave the train at Linlithgow, insisting the train would not move until he did.

Though the teenager apparently had a valid defence, he made no mention of having been mis-sold a ticket on the video but swore repeatedly at the conductor and insisted that he had a valid ticket.

A spokesman for ScotRail declined to comment on the situation yesterday, saying: "Our inquiries into the circumstances surrounding the incident continue.

"As British Transport Police has received and is investigating a complaint of assault, it would be inappropriate to comment further."

A British Transport Police spokesman added: "We can confirm we are investigating a complaint of assault. Our inquiries are ongoing

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Link comes up with 'Page Not Found'

 

[HawkeyeTheNoo]

Odd! Anyhoo, posted the transcript of the article!

 

[Chew Chew]

The plot thickens!

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...reveal-student-was-sold-wrong-ticket.16216486

THE student who was bundled off a train by a fellow passenger after failing to produce a valid ticket was sold the wrong ticket earlier in the day, subsequent investigations have confirmed.
inShare.0
Custom byline text: DAMIEN HENDERSON Transport Correspondent
Sam Main, 19, was shown apparently being lifted from his seat and ejected by Alan Pollock after swearing at an elderly conductor. He subsequently claimed he had paid the fare for the journey.

However, The Herald has learned the video was shot following an earlier incident – not shown on YouTube – in which Mr Main allegedly attempted to trip the conductor by putting his leg in the aisle.


It is understood that both Mr Main and Mr Pollock may now face criminal charges in relation to the incident, which occurred on the 9.33pm train from Edinburgh to Perth on December 9.

British Transport Police launched an investigation after receiving a complaint of assault last week by Mr Main, from Falkirk, who is studying building and surveying at Edinburgh's Heriot-Watt University.

The conductor, who has not been named, is on annual leave amid a separate investigation by ScotRail.

Sources close to the investigations have confirmed Mr Main's claim, made last week, that he had tried to buy two single tickets, one from Polmont to Edinburgh Park and another in the return direction (and using his student railcard), because he was unable to use his railcard for the outward journey before 10am.

Mr Main said the conductor at Polmont had instead given him two tickets for the same journey, one full fare and one at a discounted price using his railcard, but it was only when he got on the train that evening he realised he had two Polmont-to-Edinburgh Park tickets.

CCTV footage from the train from Edinburgh shows that an argument broke out after the conductor asked Mr Main for his ticket shortly after departure, sources said.

It shows the conductor stepping over on obstacle after the argument, though the view of the aisle is blocked by another passenger.

It is understood the conductor has claimed that Mr Main tried to trip him by putting his leg into the aisle and said that the student became abusive during the argument and started swearing when asked to produce a valid ticket.

However, the footage uploaded to YouTube was filmed later, when the conductor returned and repeatedly ordered Mr Main to leave the train at Linlithgow, insisting the train would not move until he did.

Though the teenager apparently had a valid defence, he made no mention of having been mis-sold a ticket on the video but swore repeatedly at the conductor and insisted that he had a valid ticket.

A spokesman for ScotRail declined to comment on the situation yesterday, saying: "Our inquiries into the circumstances surrounding the incident continue.

"As British Transport Police has received and is investigating a complaint of assault, it would be inappropriate to comment further."

A British Transport Police spokesman added: "We can confirm we are investigating a complaint of assault. Our inquiries are ongoing

What was it Sam Main claimed last week again?

What will he and his family claim next?

Link comes up with 'Page Not Found'

Works fine for me.

 

[amcluesent]

"Wrong sort of ticket", not unexpected on the railways...

 

[furo1]

Hi, signed up because this whole issue of trial by media really bothers me.

People are shown a tiny snippet of some event, view a few suggestive captions or comments, then pass judgement on the situation as if they have a good grasp of what actually happened.

When I watched the clip, I saw a youth in a stressful situation being seemingly attacked from all sides before finally being physically assaulted.

The only person I see who is clearly in the wrong, is the thug who decides to involve himself in a situation which could have been concluded peacefully. The conductor, though seemingly remaining calm, should lose his job as he is clearly incapable of dealing with what it demands.

We don't know the truth but I strongly suspect that the kid had bought a ticket and his explanation had been ignored, leading to frustration and eventual aggression (verbal). This is how most people would act when they are branded a liar and a fare dodging chav by a whole train carriage full of people (and eventually the world..).

I wish there was some legal recourse for this kid, defamation of character or something. I don't know enough about the law to say whether such a claim is legitimate but it certainly seems that his personal reputation has been dealt a significant blow and yet he may be completely innocent of all accusations.

 

[Oswyntail]

The plot thickens!....

As many have posted earlier, there was likely to be more to this incident than can be seen from the video. I am sure there will be further clarification. This is why we should rely on rules and laws, and not vigilante-ism which usually reacts to first impressions.

 

[Nym]

OK, when I have time I will type some more, but basically...

Whatever happens, there isn't an excuse to gob off like that at anyone, and it was him who escalated the situation by the use of foul language and escalation in his voice, not the conductor, not bigman.

There is no excuse for gobbing off, no amount of anger issues etc. count as an excuse, so you can get off that bus right now of saying that someone who verbally assaulted someone else is not guilty of anything and should receive compensation.

 

[Old Timer]

Hi, signed up because this whole issue of trial by media really bothers me.

People are shown a tiny snippet of some event, view a few suggestive captions or comments, then pass judgement on the situation as if they have a good grasp of what actually happened..

Yet you have done exactly what you profess bothers you :roll:

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi, signed up because this whole issue of trial by media really bothers me.

People are shown a tiny snippet of some event, view a few suggestive captions or comments, then pass judgement on the situation as if they have a good grasp of what actually happened.

When I watched the clip, I saw a youth in a stressful situation being seemingly attacked from all sides before finally being physically assaulted.

The only person I see who is clearly in the wrong, is the thug who decides to involve himself in a situation which could have been concluded peacefully. The conductor, though seemingly remaining calm, should lose his job as he is clearly incapable of dealing with what it demands.
We don't know the truth but I strongly suspect that the kid had bought a ticket and his explanation had been ignored, leading to frustration and eventual aggression (verbal). This is how most people would act when they are branded a liar and a fare dodging chav by a whole train carriage full of people (and eventually the world..).

I wish there was some legal recourse for this kid, defamation of character or something. I don't know enough about the law to say whether such a claim is legitimate but it certainly seems that his personal reputation has been dealt a significant blow and yet he may be completely innocent of all accusations.

You have massively contradicted yourself.

 

[furo1]

You have massively contradicted yourself.

Not really. We know nothing about the kids situation but it is clear that he was not physically threatening.

The fact the the incident escalated to violence is purely through the intervention of a man who had no business intervening, and a conductor who was incapable of preventing this escalation.

 

[Nym]

Not really. We know nothing about the kids situation but it is clear that he was not physically threatening.

The fact the the incident escalated to violence is purely through the intervention of a man who had no business intervening, and a conductor who was incapable of preventing this escalation.

And clearly you've never been in a position of responsibility or customer service on the receiving end of such abuse, I have had staff been put in similar situations by customers that have come to me in tears afterwould and then never come back to work again because of it.

And how would YOU have prevented the situation escalating then? Since you're clearly an expert in these kind of situations.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not really. We know nothing about the kids situation but it is clear that he was not physically threatening.

The fact the the incident escalated to violence is purely through the intervention of a man who had no business intervening, and a conductor who was incapable of preventing this escalation.

No, you said you didn't like this trial by media, criticised those who pass judgment on such a short clip, and have then passed judgment yourself.

:roll:

 

[furo1]

I would have tried to listen to his story, if he had failed to convince me I would have asked him politely to get off the train, if this had failed I would have contacted the transport police and made them aware of the situation and left it at that.

He is not paid to be Rambo, he is not paid to enforce the law. His main priority should have been the safety off all passengers, and letting a potential fare dodger go free is nothing compared to green lighting a physical confrontation in a carriage full of people, including children.

I am sorry you feel the need to be so patronising in your replies. It is clear that you're a world weary conductor and much like a 'nam vet, you've seen this sh*t too many times and have become disillusioned and dehumanised to the truth.

 

[jon0844]

I wish there was some legal recourse for this kid, defamation of character or something. I don't know enough about the law to say whether such a claim is legitimate but it certainly seems that his personal reputation has been dealt a significant blow and yet he may be completely innocent of all accusations.

Are you for real, or a relative perhaps? He still did loads of things in breach of byelaws. He is not an innocent victim, and his behaviour caused the chain of events to happen as they did.

He was bragging about the incident on Facebook, so clearly knew he was in the wrong.. and it's only afterwards that someone (like his dad) thought it was worth trying to blame everyone else, and no doubt grab a bit of compo.

If he had been mis-sold a ticket, he could have clearly handled things differently to stop what happened from happening. He was drunk and acted like an absolute idiot as a result.

The best thing for him to do is be an adult, hold his hands up, and then seek to sort out the issue with the incorrect ticket being sold in a professional manner afterwards. Nobody could know at the time if his story was true, as he didn't make a good enough attempt to explain and just got abusive. It's ironic if he had been telling the truth, but how is that the fault of anyone else? He kept saying his ticket was valid when it wasn't - even if that was the fault of someone else!!

 

[furo1]

No, you said you didn't like this trial by media, criticised those who pass judgment on such a short clip, and have then passed judgment yourself.

:roll:

These are basics.


Some things we can tell from the video:

The conductor was incapable of doing his job

Some thug feels like he has the right to physically assault strangers



Things we can't tell from the video:

Whether the kid had a ticket.

Whether the kid was a drunk.

Whether the kid was a chav.

 

[jon0844]

It is clear that you're a world weary conductor and much like a 'nam vet, you've seen this sh*t too many times and have become disillusioned and dehumanised to the truth.

Wow, some people are shown a comment, then pass judgement on that person as if they have a good grasp of who they are and what they do....

Things we can't tell from the video:

Whether the kid had a ticket.

Whether the kid was a drunk.

Whether the kid was a chav.

He didn't produce a valid ticket. That is an offence. End of. It's ironic that he may have been 'in the right' by having been mis-sold a ticket earlier, but only he knew that and he seemed to do a lousy job of putting that over in a polite, but firm, manner.

He was drunk. He's admitted to that himself.

He acted like a chav. He would have been judged on his actions, not the way he dressed, his age or what he actually did for a living.

Go out in a tracksuit, white trainers and a cap and see how you're treated by people. Then go out again in a smart suit and see how you're treated. People make judgements on what they see, right or wrong. That's life.

 

[marks87]

Wow, some people are shown a comment, then pass judgement on that person as if they have a good grasp of who they are and what they do....

That's a bit ironic, considering the stuff that's been directed towards Sam Main in this thread.

 

[Nym]

Some other things we can tell:

The conductor is not being abusive in any way

The child is being extremely verbally abusive to the conductor, to the point of where I have had passengers kicked off of an airport before

The child did not present a valid ticket, or the conductor would not have been demanding him to not be on the train

The child is acting out like an utter gobs****

 

[furo1]

I agree that his behaviour was not great but the situation is is very tense, the atmosphere is palpable.

He is essentially caged, being vilified by all around him and, if his story is true, he has done nothing wrong!

When you corner and torment an animal, you cannot reprimand it for biting you.

This is the failure of the ticket inspector. Rather than diffusing this atmosphere of aggression, he increases it to the point of violence.

 

[Old Timer]

These are basics.


Some things we can tell from the video:

The conductor was incapable of doing his job

Some thug feels like he has the right to physically assault strangers.

These are all YOUR assumptions based on seeing a small piece of video. You are clearly not aware of the full story yet you seek to do precisely what you profess to dislike. Trial by media.

Please will you say WHY the Conductor was incapable of doing his job, and please say how you have assessed that the "Big Man" was a thug ?

 

[Nym]

I agree that his behaviour was not great but the situation is is very tense, the atmosphere is palpable.

He is essentially caged, being vilified by all around him and, if his story is true, he has done nothing wrong!

When you corner and torment an animal, you cannot reprimand it for biting you.

This is the failure of the ticket inspector. Rather than diffusing this atmosphere of aggression, he increases it to the point of violence.

Oh you want to go with animal simalies now, well if I had an animal where it wasn't ment to be I'd either shove it in a cage and forceably remove it from the situation, or in the case of where I used to live and or work, I'd have shot it.

And I'd like to know how wanting to see a valid ticket is taunting, also, how when you can get up and walk off co-operatively or buy a ticket you are caged, there are two clear exit strategies there.