Cross Country services - the future?

[tbtc]

NR are (hoping) to do some quite major line speed improvements around wakefield kirkgate in the next control period. Quite a bit at horbury junction and also some stuff on the kirkgate leeds section. This should hopefully speed this service up and maybe take it under the hour mark. Although hopefully definitely as the current time is 1hr 01

So atm northern takes 1hr 01 XC takes 46. SO with a 10 minute time saving (easily achievable in my opinion as there are some incredibly slow bits) you put it in direct competition. But i usually arrive more than 5 minutes early on the expresses into leeds anyway whereas XC dont have the padding into leeds so its nearly as quick anyway....
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The question is would a northern only fare between leeds and sheffield help. Make it £3 cheaper but got to go on the northern expresses. Would that help solve the problem?

Best thing to do would be to schedule the Northern services so they don't get overtaken en route (e.g. the xx.18 from Sheffield to Leeds gets overtaken by the XX.23 XC service, so you can leave Sheffield five minutes later and arrive ten minutes earlier). So unless the XC service is due to be running at least ten minutes late, people are more likely to wait for the Voyager.

This is a problem when people take the "padding" time at face value.

A cheaper ticket sounds interesting though.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Best thing to do would be to schedule the Northern services so they don't get overtaken en route (e.g. the xx.18 from Sheffield to Leeds gets overtaken by the XX.23 XC service, so you can leave Sheffield five minutes later and arrive ten minutes earlier). So unless the XC service is due to be running at least ten minutes late, people are more likely to wait for the Voyager.

This is a problem when people take the "padding" time at face value.

A cheaper ticket sounds interesting though.

You could also do chesterfield sheffield cheaper on EMT (3 an hour) etc etc to try and help the issues on XC.. But ive always thought with an offer like that and good advertising. You could be looking at 3/4 car expresses to leeds via barnsley

 

[ivanhoe]

If more flows transferred onto Regional TOCs as suggested above , would this mean that large swathes of the XC network would need less services ?

Are there large number of passengers crossing the country every day? Do we need a comprehensive XC network? I used to think that Liverpool missed out on having no XC trains but the London Midland Services have improved matters for the masses who travel on the former XC routes, namely to Brum. I don't know the numbers but I would argue that more of the same is not the future for XC. A complete review is required with all possibilities discussed. Inter Urban traffic is best suited to the local TOCs!

 

[shaun]

For example, what about extending some FGW Paddington - Reading - Oxford services to Birmingham? That's the way that some services used to run (Paddington - Birmingham) - it'd take a lot of the pressure off the XC service through Oxford.

Send FGW Oxford fasts to Banbury or Leamington, then turn them round (you would need more stock but even so). Already a good half hourly fast service to Birmingham from those stations via Chiltern Railways. If this were to happen, Voyagers could then all run non-stop Oxford to Leamington. Then to save even more time, take the ATW Birmingham International services and extend them to Leamington. That'll retain the Birmingham Int-Cov-Leamington hourly service and then you could route all the Voyagers non-stop via Solihull.

Living in fantasy land now(allthough it's not exactly far fetched and not impossible). But I would love to see Class 67's and mk3 carriages operating on Cross Country services. I purposely made a journey from Birmingham-London last year to travel on one of these trains that Chiltern Railways are operating. Brilliant! Lovely comfortable seating and carriages. This is loco hauled train travel in the 21st century. A hell of a lot better than those Voyager things. These are the sort of trains that should be operating on Cross Country services!(albeit with a few extra carriages per train)

Yep, and they could've been had Virgin not given up the HSTs. The Voyagers are no match whatsoever and IMO are inferior bar their speed even to a Class 158, but unfortunately we are stuck with them for some time to come. The only thing that could save us would be a huge cascade when/if the IEP is introduced.

The best we can hope for is Chiltern introducing a 7 day regular loco-hauled service. Once the Oxford service starts running, the 168s will be cascaded so there should be alot more Class 67 services running up and down the Chilterns. I think once that happens, then Chiltern really will have the best service from London - Brum. Currently the Pendos are too cramped, the Desiros nice but too slow, and the 168s just a bit...well meh IMO. They're ok, but I just can't get excited by them.

 

[markydh]

Trains aren't there to get excited by, they are there to do a job. Both Pendos and Voyagers have achieved exactly what they were bought for. In the case of the latter, they have vastly overachieved, which is why we now have an issue with overcrowding. Yes, they are a carriage or two too short, but the service is more frequent on a regular (more or less) clockface timetable that users like. XC have, to a large extent, completely mismanaged the franchise by some of their ridiculous fare policies, for example. It could (and should) still be a lucrative franchise in the right hands.

 

[The Planner]

Then to save even more time, take the ATW Birmingham International services and extend them to Leamington. That'll retain the Birmingham Int-Cov-Leamington hourly service and then you could route all the Voyagers non-stop via Solihull.

Exactly what XC do not want, they want all their services via Cov and International. You cannot turn back at Leamington from Cov without a shunt either as there is no access to the branch from the bay. You also couldn't get the ATW to Leamington and back for it's return working anyway.

 

[route101]

Speaking of Crosscountry i was on the 1711 Edinburgh to Glasgow 220 on Fri night and noticed all the seat reservations were printed on ticket stock. Anyone else seen this?

 

[Waverley125]

is it just me that doesn't see the point of XC running to Scotland? Once you're south of Derby it's much quicker to use the WCML to Edinburgh rather than go up to York & then go via the ECML. Wouldn't it make much more sense to run XC services to terminate at Newcastle, and then run a Leeds-Aberdeen service as part of East Coast? That would bring the 'fast' Aberdeen-Edinburgh service up to hourly (and I'd suggest reducing calling points to Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath & Montrose) and give a half-hourly connection from stations north of York to Edinburgh, and an hourly connection to northeastern Scotland.

 

[tbtc]

is it just me that doesn't see the point of XC running to Scotland? Once you're south of Derby it's much quicker to use the WCML to Edinburgh rather than go up to York & then go via the ECML. Wouldn't it make much more sense to run XC services to terminate at Newcastle, and then run a Leeds-Aberdeen service as part of East Coast? That would bring the 'fast' Aberdeen-Edinburgh service up to hourly (and I'd suggest reducing calling points to Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath & Montrose) and give a half-hourly connection from stations north of York to Edinburgh, and an hourly connection to northeastern Scotland.

That'd take a lot more stock, running an additional Edinburgh - Aberdeen service would cost you about six units (assuming spare paths over the Forth etc), plus there's obviously duplication between Leeds and Newcastle (which would make it three trains an hour?).

 

[142094]

Leeds - Aberdeen would require more HSTs which are not available. A better plan would be just to stick anyone from XC onto current EC and SR services. I've used EC between EDB and Dundee and EDB and Inverness and there was quite a few empty seats on some of the services which would surely accommodate the extras.

 

[TheBigD]

In my opinion, which is based on sources within XC (that I cannot name) as well as what I see and read, is that Arriva were naive when they took the XC franchise on...

The bid for the franchise was done by consultants for Arriva (First Class Partnerships?). It's generally accepted that Arriva were surprised/shocked when they learned what they had signed up to.

Tony Miles explained it in more depth over on WNXX a couple of years ago.

 

[Waverley125]

That'd take a lot more stock, running an additional Edinburgh - Aberdeen service would cost you about six units (assuming spare paths over the Forth etc), plus there's obviously duplication between Leeds and Newcastle (which would make it three trains an hour?).

Well, yeah, supposing that we had the extra HSTs to do it then, I think it'd fly, especially if you reduce the Aberdeen-Edinburgh calling pattern to major centres only (i.e. Montrose, Arbroath, Dundee, Leuchars, Kirkcaldy, Haymarket) making it the 'Edinburgh express' at the top of the hour from Aberdeen.

As for duplication Leeds-Newcastle, given the TPE service would be calling Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham & Chester le Street it's not exactly quick, while the XC service still takes 1hr 20. Put Northallerton onto the XC map and let the EC service run York, Darlington only, and you have a 3-tier Leeds-Newcastle service which, given Leeds-Newcastle loadings when I've used the service (both during the day and in the peaks) would account for current demans (especially as the TPE service is used as a local 'express', and the XC service tends to get the long-distance travellers).

 

[Lrd]

Speaking of Crosscountry i was on the 1711 Edinburgh to Glasgow 220 on Fri night and noticed all the seat reservations were printed on ticket stock. Anyone else seen this?

Yes! I was on a Voyager on Friday from Southampton to Winchester and there were paper reservations on the back of seats as well as on the screens, not too sure why though.

 

[Eagle]

Yes! I was on a Voyager on Friday from Southampton to Winchester and there were paper reservations on the back of seats as well as on the screens, not too sure why though.

Wonder if one day they'll be able to but names on the screens like they do on the slips. Although I hope there'll be space for more than 12 letters because my name looks weird without the last three...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Wonder if one day they'll be able to but names on the screens like they do on the slips. Although I hope there'll be space for more than 12 letters because my name looks weird without the last three...

AFAIK back in Virgin days, title and surname were sometimes shown in the electronic reservation displays.

 

[Butts]

I am not an expert and merlely base my impressions on personal journeys.

My most recent trip on a Cross Country service was a short hop from Leuchars to Dundee - all of 10mins on Tuesday Night 2128.

The carriage I sat in was spotlessly clean and I noticed that the "special assistance seats" I was sitting in have a lot more leg room than the normal 2nd class seats - almost like an exit seat on a plane There were 2x2 at the end of the carriage by the luggage rack.

My belief is that their catering service let's them down with no shop on a journey that can be one of the longest in the UK on one train Aberdeen to Plymouth.

1st Class Catering is a joke compared to Virgin service on the same unit and when they were in charge.

Lounge Access has gone as well along with Virgin.

No Catering Service between Edinburgh and Aberdeen - quite a substantial journey. East Coast do it - although Scotrail are nearly as bad.

Bring back Virgin

 

[Zoe]

Bring back Virgin

Don't forget it was Virgin's idea to introduce the new stock.

 

[Butts]

Don't forget it was Virgin's idea to introduce the new stock.

But not rip out the shops, eviscerate the 1st class Catering and abandon it completely between Edinburgh and Aberdeen

 

[Zoe]

But not rip out the shops, eviscerate the 1st class Catering and abandon it completely between Edinburgh and Aberdeen

They had to find a way of increasing capacity. It wasn't Arriva's fault that they had trains that didn't have suffiecient capacity for the routes they are used on.

 

[Nym]

And ripping out the shops added how many seats? All it did was put some bag abandoning space in...

 

[Butts]

And ripping out the shops added how many seats? All it did was put some bag abandoning space in...

And what about the 1st Class Catering and the removal of the Edinburgh-Aberdeen trolley ?

 

[Nym]

Thats just poor customer service...

 

[tbtc]

I am not an expert and merlely base my impressions on personal journeys.

My most recent trip on a Cross Country service was a short hop from Leuchars to Dundee - all of 10mins on Tuesday Night 2128...

...No Catering Service between Edinburgh and Aberdeen - quite a substantial journey. East Coast do it - although Scotrail are nearly as bad

Catering after eight o'clock at night (which is when this service leaves Edinburgh) isn't going to be very busy. At least East Coast/ FSR tend to run their services mainly in the daytime, when there are richer pickings to justify a trolley.

Plus, since XC only run a token service down from Aberdeen in the morning and a token service back in the evening, which would be a scunner to arrange catering staff for - maybe they could subcontract this to Scotrail?

 

[Nym]

But if they sub contracted it to scotrail, then XC pax would miss them after EDB when the XC catering comes back on.

 

[Requeststop]

If I may come into this thread from one from the other end of the Cross Country Service? I was standing on Truro Station this summer, during one of my very rare visits back to the UK, when Annie the Announcer in Cardiff - yes Cardiff, called the stations of the Cross Country service to Aberdeen. "St. Austell, Par, Bodmin Parkway....... .....Montrose, Stonehaven and Aberdeen", and I thought to myself that this would be a great ride sometime. Penzance-Aberdeen! In my fantasy, I was mentally travelling onwards to Inverness and going on Northwards to Kyle and Thurso and Wick. Wonderful. Then a train came into the station from Highertown tunnel and it was 4 coaches! I thought to myself, who in heavens name would put themselves through any journey from West Cornwall to beyond Bristol on such a small cramped train! Nice enough to Newton Abbott and then coastside to Exeter, but beyond that who would be interested in a journey more then 200 miles in such conditions, and little or no catering on board?

Can anyone tell me how we went in summertime from the old BR days when there were 10-12 coaches to just 4?

(The train don't stop Camborne Wednesdays)

 

[ValleyLines142]

(The train don't stop Camborne Wednesdays)

It does. At 2121 every day (except Sundays).

 

[Zoe]

It does. At 2121 every day (except Sundays).

Not stopping at Camborne on Wednesdays is a joke. It seems not everyone has heard it though.

 

[starrymarkb]

It does. At 2121 every day (except Sundays).

I think someone missed the reference.

TBH If I was doing a trip of that length I'd fly. I'm about to book a weekend in Edinburgh and the flight from Exeter is about 1h20, compared with 7h44 on XC with similar catering provision. I'd rather take the DeHavilland over the other Bombardier product.

Flybe cost about £80 inc fees and Hand Baggage only - Train is £84 each way advance (well that's the best I've seen without messing about with split tickets)

 

[Zoe]

TBH If I was doing a trip of that length I'd fly. I'm about to book a weekend in Edinburgh and the flight from Exeter is about 1h20, compared with 7h44 on XC with similar catering provision. I'd rather take the DeHavilland over the other Bombardier product.

Why not go via London? It doesn't take much longer.

 

[starrymarkb]

You're right it doesn't - in fact it's about 30 mins quicker however £160 is the best I've seen pricewise (again not splitting)