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Cross Country services - the future?

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142094

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I'd say the same about Penzance too.

Bearing in mind this is the reason why Brighton got the can...

Could chop both ends if needed.

tbtc said:
To be Devil's Advocate for a moment, you could say the same about cutting services to a York/Manchester - Bristol/Reading "core" (fairly frequent connections to Edinburgh/Newcastle/ Plymouth etc)

Certainly (although living in Newcastle I'd protest against this!).


I'm not sure how many people are familiar with the notion of Generalisd Cost of travel (railway economics). Two factors associated with Generalised Cost are number of interchanges and interchange time. Theoretically, people are more inclined to use direct services as they don't like changing trains - so this might be a problem - you'd enhance the service for 95% put could disuade 5% from travelling.

This scenario has a good example - older/elderly passengers going to see family. They are very reluctant to change trains and will often use a direct service if it is at all possible (a well-known railway consultant has called this the 'Granny Effect').
 
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tbtc

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Certainly (although living in Newcastle I'd protest against this!).


I'm not sure how many people are familiar with the notion of Generalisd Cost of travel (railway economics). Two factors associated with Generalised Cost are number of interchanges and interchange time. Theoretically, people are more inclined to use direct services as they don't like changing trains - so this might be a problem - you'd enhance the service for 95% put could disuade 5% from travelling.

This scenario has a good example - older/elderly passengers going to see family. They are very reluctant to change trains and will often use a direct service if it is at all possible (a well-known railway consultant has called this the 'Granny Effect').

Yeah, it's a fair "test" to apply to things like this.

Its okay for National Express, as they are free to run beyond the obvious city termini (IIRC some Tyne & Wear "London" coach services run to South Shields/ Blyth?).

However, what do you do with a TOC - try a lot of "one a day" routes that end up giving most places some direct link (as BR did), or concentrate on a core? It was okay for BR to do what they did, but it's a bit tricky in the privatised world for a TOC that concentrates on these funny cross country routes, with no "obvious" route (compared to "run everything to London", like the other "Intercity" routes).
 

142094

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Yeah, it's a fair "test" to apply to things like this.

Its okay for National Express, as they are free to run beyond the obvious city termini (IIRC some Tyne & Wear "London" coach services run to South Shields/ Blyth?).

However, what do you do with a TOC - try a lot of "one a day" routes that end up giving most places some direct link (as BR did), or concentrate on a core? It was okay for BR to do what they did, but it's a bit tricky in the privatised world for a TOC that concentrates on these funny cross country routes, with no "obvious" route (compared to "run everything to London", like the other "Intercity" routes).

Running to South Shields rings a bell.

It's a hard thing to determine as you say - a lot of routes could work but at the same time you have the passengers concentrated on the core and the extremities would have very few people travelling on it. Bit of weighing up against providing a service to some and allowing stock to go under-used for part of the journey, or lots more capacity on the core but more changes for those going long distance.

I expect if someone had found the answer it would have been implemented by now (which suggests there is no right answer out there)!
 

tbtc

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Running to South Shields rings a bell.

It's a hard thing to determine as you say - a lot of routes could work but at the same time you have the passengers concentrated on the core and the extremities would have very few people travelling on it. Bit of weighing up against providing a service to some and allowing stock to go under-used for part of the journey, or lots more capacity on the core but more changes for those going long distance.

I expect if someone had found the answer it would have been implemented by now (which suggests there is no right answer out there)!

When you drive north up the M1 you see every National Express coach on the other side of the road is heading south to "London" (or "Gatwick via Heathrow").

But when you go south (towards London), the northbound ones show a variety of smaller places on their destination screens (e.g. the Leeds coaches show Harrogate or Skipton, the Sheffield ones show Rotherham or Halifax...).

Its something which rail doesn't really do - in the past you'd get some London - Newcastle services extending to Sunderland, maybe there's a market to do something similar with XC - to focus on giving smaller places a direct connection to the big cities?

Sorry, going waaaaaaaay off topic. Again.
 

MCR247

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Nottingham coaches (450) go to Mansfield, if thats somehow remotely relevent! :lol:
 

142094

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Its something which rail doesn't really do - in the past you'd get some London - Newcastle services extending to Sunderland, maybe there's a market to do something similar with XC - to focus on giving smaller places a direct connection to the big cities?

Logically you could have BHM as a hub (much like say KGX is for East Coast), with trains running as a 'spoke' from there, with a few going through Birmingham in each direction but most terminating there and going back the other way.
 

pmgarvey

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The problem with trying to cut quieter services is that the return working may be extremely busy, and there would be no stock to form that service if there is no incoming train!

That is assuming that a service is quiet throughout it's journey. It may meet local peaks of demand at intermediate statiosn, maybe school or college traffic flows or shoopers returning home early.mid afternoon, for example. Maybe a Bristol - Manchester train at 1300 is (relatively) quieter than others services between Bristol and Cheltenham, but is pretty busy later on.

I've given up trying to predict what Cross Country services will be like. I've gotten trains from Oxford to the north a lot and there's never any rhyme or reason to the numbers on it it seems. I pity the people there who have to plough through it looking for the patterns so they can plan services.

The advantage of Cross Country is that so many pile on and off at every station is that you rarely have to stand up for longer than a single hop.
 

WCML

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Looking through the thread, there doesn't seem to be an issue from a passenger perspective with the current services in terms of timetabling. The current half hourly services on the core network is good.

However, I'm not writing from an enthusiasts point of view - just someone who is interested in why my regular travel is in the state it is in, so pardon me if I make a few naive errors.

The procurement of the Voyagers obviously suffered from the short-sighted small time attitude that seems to be inherent on the British railways. Whoever thought that 4 car trains, effectively 3 when you discount first class, would be sufficient capacity for reasonably fast trains linking all of the UK's major cities other than London is stupid.

It is the same with the WCML and HS2. If Birmingham was connected to the 'WCML proper' on 4 tracks, and there was the standardised 4 tracks that we now have in the Trent Valley throughout the WCML and ECML then there'd be less of a need for HS2. If the DfT, government, Railtrack or whoever weren't so incompetent and they actually managed to deliver the 140mph running, then we wouldn't need it at all. Currently, the fastest New Street to Euston train is 1 hour 12 minutes. Obviously this is slowed down by the slow running to Rugby. If there were 4 lines out of New Street and 140 mph running, it could probably get down to a 1 hour service - therefore the 15 minute saving by building HS2 wouldn't be worth it. If in the 60s when they redeveloped New Street, they had done it properly then we wouldn't be strangled with the infrastructure problems we have today. 2 lines in and 2 lines out to the biggest station in the 2nd city - joke!

And the lack of vision and foresight from the 60s and previously still continues today. The highly insufficient Voyagers, the 3 car 185s. Surely they could've learnt from the Voyager capacity errors. But no, absolutley no provision for growth or even sufficient capacity in the present.

As has been stated previously in the thread, we need those extra carriages on the Voyagers as a minimum. How about standardising the fleet of the different routes and TOCs as well. Cascade all of Virgin's 221s to CrossCountry so after 'extra carriaging' there'd be a mixture of 5 and 6 car voyagers across the network.
Replace the VT Voyagers with Pendolinos and a few more locomotives if required for haulage on the North Wales/Chester lines.
Move the HSTs to provide extra capacity with current HST fleets. Then the DfT and TOCs need to collaborate and source an adequate replacement for the HSTs.

Meanwhile we have the refurbishment and addition of carriages to the Voyagers and maybe the Derby Bombardier plant will stay open. There'd be ample capacity for doubling and they wouldn't be too long for the shorter platforms.

I don't find the Voyagers too bad. Yes, they smell at times, they do rattle, are noisy and they are in need of a refurb. BUT, I'd much rather do a Manchester-Birmingham run on them, then say a Manchester-Blackburn run on a 150, Pacer or other inadequate 1980s excuse of a train.

Surely, the toilet issue can be rectified or at least mitigate the smell. The layout isn't too bad. The window issue can be lived with - pretty similar issue on the Pendos as well. Replace the seats. The Virgin offering isn't too bad. Re-do the air-con so there's a consistent temperature, not either freezing throughout the carriage and then red hot under the vent in the ceiling next to the vestibule doors and sort out the luggage facilities. How about gutting the old shop/luggage compartment, removing the ducting/ventilation and putting in extra seats and put extra luggage racks throughout the train.

Lastly, replace the audio system and visual displays to a combo of the Pendo system and the London Midland 350 set-up.
 

The Planner

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Logically you could have BHM as a hub (much like say KGX is for East Coast), with trains running as a 'spoke' from there, with a few going through Birmingham in each direction but most terminating there and going back the other way.

That is the last thing you want to do, half of New St problems are due to the fact it is treated as a terminus station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the DfT, government, Railtrack or whoever weren't so incompetent and they actually managed to deliver the 140mph running, then we wouldn't need it at all. Currently, the fastest New Street to Euston train is 1 hour 12 minutes. Obviously this is slowed down by the slow running to Rugby. If there were 4 lines out of New Street and 140 mph running, it could probably get down to a 1 hour service

Hardly call 100/110/125mph to Rugby slow, and unless you remove International and Coventry stops, there is very little benefit in speeding it up. The only speed constraint is the 75mph over the flyover. 140mph is never going to get you the 12 minutes either, New St to Euston is what ? 110-115 miles ? No more than 7 minutes tops.

If in the 60s when they redeveloped New Street, they had done it properly then we wouldn't be strangled with the infrastructure problems we have today. 2 lines in and 2 lines out to the biggest station in the 2nd city - joke!

That is just hindsight, they never knew back in the 60s there would be such a massive increase in traffic, if anything I suspect they predicted a decline. I'm not convinced of the old "tunnel under the Bullring" excuse either as it would still cause conflicting moves in the throat. You would also still have the 4 tracks out the other end too as I can see no way of doing anything about that.
 

tbtc

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The procurement of the Voyagers obviously suffered from the short-sighted small time attitude that seems to be inherent on the British railways. Whoever thought that 4 car trains, effectively 3 when you discount first class, would be sufficient capacity for reasonably fast trains linking all of the UK's major cities other than London is stupid

To be fair, they run twice as often as the services they replaced and the Cross Country services weren't *that* busy beforehand. Plus supposedly they were due to be extended later on (like the 185s were...).

Under BR there were plenty six/seven coach XC services, but a few 158s (e.g. Portsmouth - Liverpool)
 

Geezertronic

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Currently, the fastest New Street to Euston train is 1 hour 12 minutes. Obviously this is slowed down by the slow running to Rugby. If there were 4 lines out of New Street and 140 mph running, it could probably get down to a 1 hour service - therefore the 15 minute saving by building HS2 wouldn't be worth it.

That service you refer to is the 0730 BHM-EUS non stopper, could you get that down to under an hour with future possible upgrades? Maybe not judging from what The Planner says, but the 0730 BHM-EUS is a once a day one way service whereas the normal service pattern stops at BHI, & COV (excluding services that stop at one of RUG, MKC & WFJ and even WVH & SAD north of BHM) so your argument about HS2 is a bit irrelevant
 

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Right at the end of the platforms more or less, you would probably also hang out the back end and foul the main lines.

Back to the Leamington problem, what if the services given higher capacity on Scotland-South West are double Voyagers, (probably up to 11 car), and the Manchester-South Coast services which need extra become HST operated?

Potential problems that I can see are that the route is a long way from any HST depots, and what kind of bogies do the XC HSTs have, thinking of the performance FGW had remarshalling rakes for use over 3rd rail.

On the plus side I recon XCs first EMUs will be for this route, with the age of Chilterns fleet tying in fairly well with the replacement of the XC HSTs.

 

The Planner

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Looking at it you will probably be ok on the down at Leamington as you have 308m, on the up it is 246m.
 

142094

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That is the last thing you want to do, half of New St problems are due to the fact it is treated as a terminus station.

Course it would depend on how many trains you were to terminate there, but when HS2 comes along hopefully that should increase capacity at New Street and take away some of the Birmingham - London traffic.
 

WCML

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To be fair, they run twice as often as the services they replaced and the Cross Country services weren't *that* busy beforehand. Plus supposedly they were due to be extended later on (like the 185s were...).

Under BR there were plenty six/seven coach XC services, but a few 158s (e.g. Portsmouth - Liverpool)

True, but when the procurement process is undertaken for new trains, is there any thought about potential growth? Now that there is a proper timetable and frequent services, it is a lot more attractive for people to use the train.

Are the DfT going to continue to make the same mistakes and incur unecessary costs or might they just take a few minor risks and provide sufficient capacity from the offset?
Case in point - the pendolinos. What is with the faffing around with the 11 car sets. Put the extra coaches in, take the extra coaches out, in out in out, swap them all around. It seems like a right circus. Get them out in passenger usage!
 

sprinterguy

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Course it would depend on how many trains you were to terminate there, but when HS2 comes along hopefully that should increase capacity at New Street and take away some of the Birmingham - London traffic.
If HS2 reaches Leeds and Manchester, then I would consider breaking up the North East to South West axis of Crosscountry into a number of shorter journeys. Of course, the idea is that HS2 will cater for demand between Birmingham, Leeds, York, Newcastle and Edinburgh, but it would also be prudent to continue to provide a slower service between the North East and Birmingham for those places that will not be directly served by HS2. So there might be a pattern of hourly services looking something like this:

1. Glasgow - Edinburgh - Newcastle - York - Doncaster - Sheffield - Nottingham
2. York - Leeds - Sheffield - Derby - Birmingham - Bristol
3. Nottingham - Birmingham - Gloucester - Cardiff
4. Birmingham (Possibly Moor Street?) - Oxford - Reading

It might also be worth revising the Manchester services, so that the Manchester to Bristol service runs through to Penzance every hour. The Manchester to Bournemouth service could be kept as it is.

Of course, the gaps created by the pruning of the Crosscountry network in this way would be filled by shorter distance regional services operated by the relevant local TOC.
 

142094

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Hopefully there won't be the same problem as there was with HS1 where those who did not want to/could not afford to travel on the HighSpeed services were forced to use the local services, which had their journey times increased.
 

tbtc

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the gaps created by the pruning of the Crosscountry network in this way would be filled by shorter distance regional services operated by the relevant local TOC

This is what should be happening in a lot of places, regardless of HS2.

Rather than blaming the busy Voyagers (or complaining about the withdrawn links on the truncated XC network), we should be looking at why the "local" TOC can't cater to this market.

As I said earlier on this thread, Northern's half hourly Leeds - Wakefield Barnsley - Sheffield service (extending hourly to Nottingham) has taken a little pressure off the XC service from Leeds to Sheffield (the 158s take an hour, which is a bit longer than the Voyagers, and some get overtaken, but at least it's a complimentary service).

Some XC services run alongside frequent "local" TOC provision (e.g. Reading - Oxford), but the "local" TOCs could be helping tackle capacity on other stretches of the XC route (there's a plan for an LM stopper from Manchester to Birmingham, but I've heard of few others).

For example, what about extending some FGW Paddington - Reading - Oxford services to Birmingham? That's the way that some services used to run (Paddington - Birmingham) - it'd take a lot of the pressure off the XC service through Oxford. What about extending some Euston - Wolverhampton services to Manchester? Extend some daytime St Pancras - Sheffield services to Leeds (to ease the Derby/ Sheffield - Leeds demands)?

If you can take these "local" flows off the Voyagers then you free up a lot of space for longer distance passengers.
 

tbtc

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The issue with this is that XC would end up losing revenue.

They would free up a few seats, which they could use to target longer distance passengers.

At the moment a lot of the lucrative long distance market goes via London because the Voyagers are so busy. Help take some of the "local" traffic off the Voyagers and you improve XC's appeal to the longer distance passenger.
 

The Planner

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I don't think XC would go for that, they are more interested in core markets than the long distance stuff. Bristol - Birmingham, Oxford - Reading, Oxford - Birmingham, Birmingham - Sheffield, Sheffield - Leeds, Sheffield - York etc... If you go down the path of pruning routes, like Zoe has commented, they would lose a sunstantial chunk of cash Id imagine.
 

Greenback

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This is what should be happening in a lot of places, regardless of HS2.

Rather than blaming the busy Voyagers (or complaining about the withdrawn links on the truncated XC network), we should be looking at why the "local" TOC can't cater to this market.

As I said earlier on this thread, Northern's half hourly Leeds - Wakefield Barnsley - Sheffield service (extending hourly to Nottingham) has taken a little pressure off the XC service from Leeds to Sheffield (the 158s take an hour, which is a bit longer than the Voyagers, and some get overtaken, but at least it's a complimentary service).

Some XC services run alongside frequent "local" TOC provision (e.g. Reading - Oxford), but the "local" TOCs could be helping tackle capacity on other stretches of the XC route (there's a plan for an LM stopper from Manchester to Birmingham, but I've heard of few others).

For example, what about extending some FGW Paddington - Reading - Oxford services to Birmingham? That's the way that some services used to run (Paddington - Birmingham) - it'd take a lot of the pressure off the XC service through Oxford. What about extending some Euston - Wolverhampton services to Manchester? Extend some daytime St Pancras - Sheffield services to Leeds (to ease the Derby/ Sheffield - Leeds demands)?

If you can take these "local" flows off the Voyagers then you free up a lot of space for longer distance passengers.

You are correct, and this is probably what would have happened to a greater extent under a unified system.

The issue with this is that XC would end up losing revenue.

That would not matter if the system had not been fragmented, of course.

I don't think XC would go for that, they are more interested in core markets than the long distance stuff. Bristol - Birmingham, Oxford - Reading, Oxford - Birmingham, Birmingham - Sheffield, Sheffield - Leeds, Sheffield - York etc... If you go down the path of pruning routes, like Zoe has commented, they would lose a sunstantial chunk of cash Id imagine.

But, as tbtc has said but I have not quoted, maybe more longer distance passengers might be persuaded to use XC if they knew they would be in for a less crowded and more pleasant experience? I mean, maybe some people might even be tempted out of their cars!

In my view, it would be another illustration of the madness of the current system if extra services really can't be introduced because of the revenue argument.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Trouble is that the XC revenue base is made up of many flows from a myriad of places , so diluting the calls that XC make , reduce the revenue allocations - hence the viability of the franchise. Yes - we all know there are crowding peaks all over - and some local substitution helps on the latter.

It doesnt have the abilty to fill a train up over longer distance flows (as say WC does between Crewe or Manchester to London) - the "churn" on the trains is greater than the point to point longer flows. One of the reasons why calls at Stafford - originally taken out by the SRA / DfT on Bham to Manchester crept back in .....
 

tbtc

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I don't think XC would go for that, they are more interested in core markets than the long distance stuff. Bristol - Birmingham, Oxford - Reading, Oxford - Birmingham, Birmingham - Sheffield, Sheffield - Leeds, Sheffield - York etc... If you go down the path of pruning routes, like Zoe has commented, they would lose a sunstantial chunk of cash Id imagine.

I appreciate that there's a lot of money in these local flows (having stood on a Voyager from Sheffield to Leeds daily whilst commuting a fair bit over the years).

The problem is that, for me, XC shouldn't be chasing that kind of market. If there's to be a Cross Country franchise then it really ought to "do exactly what it says on the tin", rather than the "high churn" we have at the moment.

One feature I've noticed (more and more) recently is TOCs wanting to run services to suit their share of the market, rather than for the good of the railway over-all. XC would probably rather stick with a dependable share of these local markets than take the risk of developing a longer distance passenger base (competing more with the "via London" market, the airport and motorways).

For example, I know people in/around Sheffield who automatically go via London on trips to/from Reading/ Bristol, because they can get cheaper tickets and because they don't have to fight for a seat. I also know people who use XC daily to commute to/from Chesterfield, Wakefield and Leeds. If the second type of people were using local trains for local journeys, the first type of people may come back to XC?

(and, yes, "local trains for local people" sounds very Royston Vasey, I know...)
 

The Planner

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Still comes down to cash flow. The pax they lose to other local services will in no way be matched by those gained on long distance, it just creates another subsidy sponge.
 

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In a recent article in Modern Railways, a spokesman of Arriva commented on XC as being a huge dissapointment for the company. Didnt enlarge on it. Is that due to lower than forecasted revenue or what?
 

Greenback

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In my opinion, which is based on sources within XC (that I cannot name) as well as what I see and read, is that Arriva were naive when they took the XC franchise on. They believed that they could increase revenue by introducing time restrictions on fares that they priced, by arranging to price more flows, and by increasing their fares by the maximum they could get away with on their busiest flows.

Unfortuantely, they reckoned without the ability of a lot of people to get around their restrictions by using legitimate emans such a ssplits,s tarting early or finishing short. They also failed to grab as many flows from other TOC's as theyw anted. Finally, many of the very passengers they wanted to extract revenue from now travel via London (or Manchester in my case to and from Scotland or the North) as tbtc said.

The result of this is that while XC's trains through the central core are still full, these are largely people on local tickets, split tickets etc who do not provide anywhere near as much revenue as XC thought.
 

Class 33

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The suggestions of the main core services being Bristol-Manchester, and Bristol-York, with at times some services extended south or north is a good one. In addition the calling pattern of the Bristol-Manchester, and Bristol-York's could remain the same as they are. But the extended services I think should be proper limited stop long distance express services. None of this stopping every half hour or less palava. This would then segregate to some degree the mix of people travelling just 30 or 40 miles or so(or less) and people travelling long distance, and so hence help ease over-crowding.

Looking at that 1990 timetable again, as well as some services doing Bristol-Birmingham non-stop there were even some doing Derby-Bristol non-stop and Birmingham-Taunton non-stop. Can you imagine that happening nowadays?

As recently as 2004 on Summer Saturdays Virgin ran a number of proper additional limited stop cross country services, slotted in with the usual services. And to a lesser extent Arriva Cross Country ran some such services during Summer 2008. But we've not had any such services since. Why?

Some other train operators run proper express services on their routes. For instance first stop out of London places such as York, Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent, etc. As well as running services stopping more frequently. A good mix of proper express services, and slower services. It is a shame Arriva Cross Country can not run their services similarly.

Even if they can't (currently) get hold of additional train or carriages, I really think if they put some research into it and looked at how they can make changes to their timetables(i.e. trimming back some services as some have mentioned) they could start ease over-crowding to some degree. But are they doing this? Probably not unfortunately.

Living in fantasy land now(allthough it's not exactly far fetched and not impossible). But I would love to see Class 67's and mk3 carriages operating on Cross Country services. I purposely made a journey from Birmingham-London last year to travel on one of these trains that Chiltern Railways are operating. Brilliant! Lovely comfortable seating and carriages. This is loco hauled train travel in the 21st century. A hell of a lot better than those Voyager things. These are the sort of trains that should be operating on Cross Country services!(albeit with a few extra carriages per train)
 
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GingerSte

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This is what should be happening in a lot of places, regardless of HS2.

Rather than blaming the busy Voyagers (or complaining about the withdrawn links on the truncated XC network), we should be looking at why the "local" TOC can't cater to this market.

As I said earlier on this thread, Northern's half hourly Leeds - Wakefield Barnsley - Sheffield service (extending hourly to Nottingham) has taken a little pressure off the XC service from Leeds to Sheffield (the 158s take an hour, which is a bit longer than the Voyagers, and some get overtaken, but at least it's a complimentary service).

I used to commute from Wakefield to Sheffield for a while. I didn't use this service to Sheffield because it meant using Kirkgate instead of Westgate (you have to pick one or the other, as they go from different stations). Coming back wasn't as big an issue, as they both set off from Sheffield, and the Northern service was slightly more convenient for me if coming back early-mid afternoon (rather than evening).

If they both ran through Wakefield Westgate (I think that's the aspiration in the long term), then the service would be sped up due to the higher linespeeds, and become a real alternative to XC.
 

YorkshireBear

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I used to commute from Wakefield to Sheffield for a while. I didn't use this service to Sheffield because it meant using Kirkgate instead of Westgate (you have to pick one or the other, as they go from different stations). Coming back wasn't as big an issue, as they both set off from Sheffield, and the Northern service was slightly more convenient for me if coming back early-mid afternoon (rather than evening).

If they both ran through Wakefield Westgate (I think that's the aspiration in the long term), then the service would be sped up due to the higher linespeeds, and become a real alternative to XC.

NR are (hoping) to do some quite major line speed improvements around wakefield kirkgate in the next control period. Quite a bit at horbury junction and also some stuff on the kirkgate leeds section. This should hopefully speed this service up and maybe take it under the hour mark. Although hopefully definitely as the current time is 1hr 01 :)

So atm northern takes 1hr 01 XC takes 46. SO with a 10 minute time saving (easily achievable in my opinion as there are some incredibly slow bits) you put it in direct competition. But i usually arrive more than 5 minutes early on the expresses into leeds anyway whereas XC dont have the padding into leeds so its nearly as quick anyway....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The question is would a northern only fare between leeds and sheffield help. Make it £3 cheaper but got to go on the northern expresses. Would that help solve the problem?
 
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