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'Big man' vs Sam Main incident (final decision: no charges for either)

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Anon Mouse

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I wonder what the general feeling would have been if there had of been no 'big man' and the bad language escalated into the Guard being assaulted and all the passengers looked the other way? Just a thought
 
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DaveNewcastle

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Also remember, that some members of this forum haven't entirely lost their grip on reality and can still see that assault, without exception, is a serious crime. A crime greater than the minor offense of fare evasion. In this instance the has scroat the higher ground.
I'm surprised. I find this post presents an unusual and atypical position.

Especially the crucial connection between 'a grip on reality' (which is a matter of fact albeit hard to evaluate) and 'assault is a serious crime' (which is also a matter of fact and is relevant in this matter along with other facts).
The other facts surely include other offences, both as found in statute and as practiced daily.
We receive so many new posters on here (and elsewhere) expressing disbelief that ticketless rail travel is an offence which (in approp. circs.) carries a lifelong criminal record.

My grip on reality is to assess the balance of evidence. I seem to have sight of more successful prosecutions for ticketless travel than successful prosecutions for assault. I will not have this construed as factually accurate across the UK, but it does appear to be likely at a quick glance. Perhaps the factual data isn't really what you are looking for Nonsense.
 

Flamingo

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I've said it before, and I'll say it again, both of them may have been in the wrong, but I know which one of them would be welcome on any train I work, and which one of them can **** off and walk home.
 

Anon Mouse

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I've said it before, and I'll say it again, both of them may have been in the wrong, but I know which one of them would be welcome on any train I work, and which one of them can **** off and walk home.

and I'm sure its the same one I would rather on my train too
 

michael769

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escalated into the Guard being assaulted and all the passengers looked the other way? Just a thought

Unfortunately the knowledge that the big man has been charged and has already spent 2 months waiting to find out if the Fiscal is going to follow though or not - means that the odds of passengers doing anything other than looking the other way in future has been greatly reduced.
 

LondonJohn

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Also remember, that some members of this forum haven't entirely lost their grip on reality and can still see that assault, without exception, is a serious crime. A crime greater than the minor offense of fare evasion. In this instance the has scroat the higher ground.

Justice isn't delivered by he nearest thug and no one under the misguided belief that it is should receive the slightest bit of support. And punishment should not be withheld.

But I would say that wouldn't I. I did travel without a ticket once or twice. :roll:

Absoloutely, whilst I have never avoided a fare, I have been on a train where someone was stabbed and I wouldn't intervene. I'd rather be a coward that is alive as opposed to a dead hero.

I am surprised that the rail staff do not get their unions to put pressure on the TOC to get the BTP to attend situations like this. You have Bob Crowe at the helm of the RMT who is usually able to achieve results. I am sure if the network closes a few times TOCs might be more inclined to get the BTP to attend.

Assault by vigilantes is NOT the answer despite what people say and thankfully we have laws of the land to enforce that.
 

ANorthernGuard

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The laws are a joke, someone fare evading gets treated like some sort of victim whilst the guy who helped is a criminal?

Totally Absurd
 

bobrobert

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Quote

We receive so many new posters on here (and elsewhere) expressing disbelief that ticketless rail travel is an offence which (in approp. circs.) carries a lifelong criminal record.

Unquote

At the risk of splitting hairs - and I am not a troll - there are times when travelling between stations with out a ticket can't be avoided My local station doesn't have ticket issuing facilities and the next one on the line going east doesn't have them either. They used to have them but they were abandoned. Am I not entitled to use the two stations ? When I get on I fully intend to pay my fare to any inspector.
 

Minilad

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Quote



At the risk of splitting hairs - and I am not a troll - there are times when travelling between stations with out a ticket can't be avoided My local station doesn't have ticket issuing facilities and the next one on the line going east doesn't have them either. They used to have them but they were abandoned. Am I not entitled to use the two stations ?

Is there a guard on the train ? If so you should go to him and ask to buy a ticket
 

yorkie

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Quote

We receive so many new posters on here (and elsewhere) expressing disbelief that ticketless rail travel is an offence which (in approp. circs.) carries a lifelong criminal record.

Unquote

At the risk of splitting hairs - and I am not a troll - there are times when travelling between stations with out a ticket can't be avoided My local station doesn't have ticket issuing facilities and the next one on the line going east doesn't have them either. They used to have them but they were abandoned. Am I not entitled to use the two stations ? When I get on I fully intend to pay my fare to any inspector.
When they say "ticketless travel" in this context they are referring to someone who repeatedly turns down opportunities to purchase the ticket, as Sam Main did. The term "ticketless" can also refer to smart cards (as in there is no physical ticket). There is no recognised meaning for the term "ticketless" and it is best avoided as it can cause confusion. But in the context of this discussion I think we can know what they mean. It obviously does not in any way refer to the situation you describe!

Sam Main apparently spotted that he did not have the correct ticket on the way into Edinburgh (whether that is true or not we will never know, but assuming it is...). He had the opportunity to ask the guard on that train to sort it out. He didn't. He had the opportunity to sort it out at Edinburgh Waverley. He didn't. The guard then came round and he again declined the final opportunity to purchase a ticket, and was abusive and was asked to leave the train.

In my view it is morally right that an abusive chav who is refusing to leave the train can be moved. Sadly the law is inadequate. The big man did not assault Sam Main, however when he moved him, Sam Main turns round and attempts to throw a punch, the big man has hold of his arms to prevent Sam Main thumping him. Sam Main causes himself to stumble as a result of resisting. Sam Main is not injured when initially removed from the train but causes injury to himself when he repeatedly launches himself into the train when he has no right to board it.

It is clear that Sam Main is in the wrong.

Unfortunately most of the time such chavs get away with acting like him. Therefore I am pleasantly surprised when someone deals with them in an appropriate way.

The people supporting Sam Main and/or having a go at the big man perhaps lack experience of troublemaking, obnoxious abusive chavs. Or perhaps some of his supporters are chavs and are outraged at the prospect of being challenged engaging in chavish behaviour (not anyone on this forum I am sure!).
 

MidnightFlyer

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Trains on the Strathclyde north routes don't have guards. Come to think about it I don't remember the last time I saw a guard any time that I have travelled in Scotland.

They have RPIs though, I have never been on a journey in Stratchclyde without seeing one!
 

Anon Mouse

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I think you are best reading the National Conditions of Carriage, as if you get taken to court for it, you will pay a lot more than the £3.00 fare or what ever it is....and would end up with a Criminal record
 

Geezertronic

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Surely someone should stick up for the "Big Man", even though he is getting what he deserves.

Why is the Big Man getting what he deserved? As per Yorkie's post above, the law is inadequate for dealing with what Yorkie accurately describes as "troublemaking, obnoxious abusive chavs."

I have seen the video and see no assult taking place on the Chav Main, I fail to see why a charge of assult would stick against the Big Man with that video evidence. Maybe it says a lot for society that people are reluctant to deal with a troblesome element themselves, I am personally not afraid to step in if required.
 

bobrobert

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Sam Main apparently spotted that he did not have the correct ticket on the way into Edinburgh (whether that is true or not we will never know, but assuming it is...)

Unquote

A rather large assumption. You have based your whole post on this and painted him guilty? I am not in any way supporting Sam Main but the actions of the other guy who also didn't have any knowledge of any guilt was imo over the top. If I were to get into a discussion about a ticket I wouldn't want to get thrown off by a member of the public.
 

Geezertronic

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Then maybe Main should learn that if we wants to be treated with respect, he should treat others with respect too. For him to be f'ing and blinding in a carriage full of fare paying passengers shows a total lack of respect for anybody else and the little scroat got what he deserved...
 

Anon Mouse

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He was guilty as sin, you can tell on the video. In any case, is there any excuse for him to give the Conductor such a shocking verbal assault? For that alone I would welcome him being ejected from the train.
 

yorkie

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Quote

Sam Main apparently spotted that he did not have the correct ticket on the way into Edinburgh (whether that is true or not we will never know, but assuming it is...)

Unquote

A rather large assumption. You have based your whole post on this and painted him guilty? I am not in any way supporting Sam Main but the actions of the other guy who also didn't have any knowledge of any guilt was imo over the top.
Sam Main can be seen being abusive toward railway staff, that is an offence and his guilt is easy to see.

Sam Main admitted to not having the correct ticket in The Metro, although while I accept his admission the rest of his account is clearly untrue. Also Herald Scotland reveals more about the incident, including the fact that Mr Main bought two Polmont to Edinburgh Park singles, also reported in The Daily Mail. It is unclear when Sam Main realised this but he is reported as saying "'I didn't realise until later but I thought I'd be able to explain what happened to the conductor on the train" - that suggests to me he realised before he boarded and chose not to sort it out at the ticket office. His idea of "explaining" apparently includes swearing and shouting "I've paid!".

How anyone can defend this scoundrel is beyond my comprehension.

If I were to get into a discussion about a ticket I wouldn't want to get thrown off by a member of the public.
If you refuse to buy a ticket, you will be asked to leave. If you refused to leave then I personally WOULD support you being "thrown off" by a member of the public.

Obviously this is quite different if a valid ticket is held but the conductor thinks it is not valid, but there are procedures for that that guards must follow. That really isn't the case here where a customer is simply refusing to show or purchase a valid ticket and is clearly being abusive to the guard.
 

MidnightFlyer

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That isn't the same as a guard. I was advised to look for one. I think that there is a difference between Arizona and Scotland that you don't fully appreciate, assuming that is wher you come from?

It isn't; in in Lancashire. Please don't assume that because people are from different areas they don't know what they are talking about. RPIs collect fares, as well as sell tickets, as well as safety etc. Guards do all this as well as control doors too, among other things. I'm in Glasgow fairly regularly, often 15-20 times a year, and will almost inevitably at some stage on those trips end up on several train journeys. Every trip I have ever made on North Clyde I have had my ticket checked on.
 

Anon Mouse

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That isn't the same as a guard. I was advised to look for one.

Troll

ok then, you should look for a member of staff who can sell you a ticket, Guard, Conductor, RPI, RPO whatever. If you chose to travel without a ticket, 'chancing it' or whatever it is your own fault, your problem and you will deserve your day in court. Would you expect to travel on a bus or a taxi without paying?
 

yorkie

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Then maybe Main should learn that if we wants to be treated with respect, he should treat others with respect too. For him to be f'ing and blinding in a carriage full of fare paying passengers shows a total lack of respect for anybody else and the little scroat got what he deserved...
These chavs have a different view of "respect" to the rest of us. There is no prospect of the advice you give being heeded.
 

marks87

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There's no ticket office at Edinburgh Park, so I'm not sure when he would have been able to explain things before boarding the train.

Once again, people are making this into a black and white case of fare evasion. It's not as simple as that.
 

bobrobert

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Troll

ok then, you should look for a member of staff who can sell you a ticket, Guard, Conductor, RPI, RPO whatever. If you chose to travel without a ticket, 'chancing it' or whatever it is your own fault, your problem and you will deserve your day in court. Would you expect to travel on a bus or a taxi without paying?

First I am not a troll just someone with a difference of opinion to you. In the fifty years of travelling on Strathclyde north I have never once went looking for a ticket person. They come looking for you. I have never witnessed any person who has went looking for the ticket person. A lot of trains are six carriages without a connecting door between the two sets of three. I am not advocating fare dodging but I am - and others on this thread - unhappy with the way he was manhandled.
 
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