Class 323 issues - the Reprise!

[Ivo]

Many moons ago, by which I mean in early April last year, one of the most hostile issues on this forum from my perspective was the Class 323. I found them to be horrid things that were completely unsuitable in every way and could not understand why so many on here seemed to appreciate or even like them.

However, after the NWM Challenge during the same period my disdain of them died down through lack of use. Indeed, since that day I have not been on a London Midland 323! Instead, I have had to put up with their third rail cousins, including the ridiculous Class 466 - a two-car EMU. For the most part these journeys have been quite short though, so I have persevered - apart from the hour-long 465 journey on the South London Challenge anyway, when I had company which reduced the pain.

On Saturday in Manchester though, the old animosity was struck once more. Heading down to Manchester Airport on 323223 I soon remembered why I detested the Birmingham examples so much. The doors. The floor. The walls. The seats. The toilets. The capacity. The lack of tables. The stupid noises. The speed. The interior layout. The... well, everything! Isn't ten a sufficient number?

Only, remembering back to Birmingham, I soon realised that if anything the Brum ones seem nicer than their Northern counterparts. Indeed, the only decent thing I could think of was the window availability - and even then that only hit home when passing over Dinting Viaduct!

So, folks, what do you all think now? Do you still all believe I'm out-of-it?

Compared to these things, Pacers are infinitely better - and they are some of the most hated things out there.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Many moons ago, by which I mean in early April last year, one of the most hostile issues on this forum from my perspective was the Class 323. I found them to be horrid things that were completely unsuitable in every way and could not understand why so many on here seemed to appreciate or even like them.

However, after the NWM Challenge during the same period my disdain of them died down through lack of use. Indeed, since that day I have not been on a London Midland 323! Instead, I have had to put up with their third rail cousins, including the ridiculous Class 466 - a two-car EMU. For the most part these journeys have been quite short though, so I have persevered - apart from the hour-long 465 journey on the South London Challenge anyway, when I had company which reduced the pain.

On Saturday in Manchester though, the old animosity was struck once more. Heading down to Manchester Airport on 323223 I soon remembered why I detested the Birmingham examples so much. The doors. The floor. The walls. The seats. The toilets. The capacity. The lack of tables. The stupid noises. The speed. The interior layout. The... well, everything! Isn't ten a sufficient number?

Only, remembering back to Birmingham, I soon realised that if anything the Brum ones seem nicer than their Northern counterparts. Indeed, the only decent thing I could think of was the window availability - and even then that only hit home when passing over Dinting Viaduct!

So, folks, what do you all think now? Do you still all believe I'm out-of-it?

Compared to these things, Pacers are infinitely better - and they are some of the most hated things out there.

From someone who works them... They are a hell of a lot better than pacers (i prefer the architecture of railways and not the trains)

i][/i]

 

[507 001]

Many moons ago, by which I mean in early April last year, one of the most hostile issues on this forum from my perspective was the Class 323. I found them to be horrid things that were completely unsuitable in every way and could not understand why so many on here seemed to appreciate or even like them.

However, after the NWM Challenge during the same period my disdain of them died down through lack of use. Indeed, since that day I have not been on a London Midland 323! Instead, I have had to put up with their third rail cousins, including the ridiculous Class 466 - a two-car EMU. For the most part these journeys have been quite short though, so I have persevered - apart from the hour-long 465 journey on the South London Challenge anyway, when I had company which reduced the pain.

On Saturday in Manchester though, the old animosity was struck once more. Heading down to Manchester Airport on 323223 I soon remembered why I detested the Birmingham examples so much. The doors. The floor. The walls. The seats. The toilets. The capacity. The lack of tables. The stupid noises. The speed. The interior layout. The... well, everything! Isn't ten a sufficient number?

Only, remembering back to Birmingham, I soon realised that if anything the Brum ones seem nicer than their Northern counterparts. Indeed, the only decent thing I could think of was the window availability - and even then that only hit home when passing over Dinting Viaduct!

So, folks, what do you all think now? Do you still all believe I'm out-of-it?

Compared to these things, Pacers are infinitely better - and they are some of the most hated things out there.

I think your nuts!

 

[table38]

I'm especially fond of 323232. Or maybe it's just OCD

My only concern is the position of the passenger alarm handle in the toilets, which some wag has usually written "pull to flush" on

 

[gazthomas]

Not sure 323's are cousins to 466's? 323's where a product of Hunslet TPL whereas 466's a part of the ABB/BREL Networker family.

 

[RyanB]

I don't think they were ever meant for anything other than journeys less than 20 minutes.

They were manufactured by Hunslet, the last trains from them before they collapsed.

466s were built by Metro-Cammell

 

[northwichcat]

From someone who works them... They are a hell of a lot better than pacers (i prefer the architecture of railways and not the trains)

The 323s calling at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme certainly speed up again much, much quicker than any 142 doing those calls. In fact I seem to recall when Northern subbed a 323 Crewe diagram for Pacers after the Congleton accident, the Pacers, not only took longer but actually held up following services because their acceleration was that much poorer.

 

[Class172]

323s are much better than pacers. The sound is epic; that's before we go onto capacity, acceleration etc.

 

[jopsuk]

The 323 design bears no relation whatsoever to the Networkers

 

[swt_passenger]

Your personal preferences become a 'hostile issue'? Disdain? Animosity?

You need to get a sense of perspective I reckon. Or maybe buy a better dictionary...

 

[4SRKT]

Where is sprinterguy when you need him?

 

[northwichcat]

The 323 design bears no relation whatsoever to the Networkers

Although, the original internal layout in standard class on the Networkers is almost identical to that of the 323s.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Many moons ago, by which I mean in early April last year, one of the most hostile issues on this forum from my perspective was the Class 323. I found them to be horrid things that were completely unsuitable in every way and could not understand why so many on here seemed to appreciate or even like them.

However, after the NWM Challenge during the same period my disdain of them died down through lack of use. Indeed, since that day I have not been on a London Midland 323! Instead, I have had to put up with their third rail cousins, including the ridiculous Class 466 - a two-car EMU. For the most part these journeys have been quite short though, so I have persevered - apart from the hour-long 465 journey on the South London Challenge anyway, when I had company which reduced the pain.

On Saturday in Manchester though, the old animosity was struck once more. Heading down to Manchester Airport on 323223 I soon remembered why I detested the Birmingham examples so much. The doors. The floor. The walls. The seats. The toilets. The capacity. The lack of tables. The stupid noises. The speed. The interior layout. The... well, everything! Isn't ten a sufficient number?

Only, remembering back to Birmingham, I soon realised that if anything the Brum ones seem nicer than their Northern counterparts. Indeed, the only decent thing I could think of was the window availability - and even then that only hit home when passing over Dinting Viaduct!

So, folks, what do you all think now? Do you still all believe I'm out-of-it?

Compared to these things, Pacers are infinitely better - and they are some of the most hated things out there.

Now I don't mean to sound biased because 'Networkers' are my favorites... But I can't seriously find much fault with them? I am assuming you only hate them because there 'classed' as modern-(ish)?

 

[Ivo]

I am assuming you only hate them because there 'classed' as modern-(ish)?

Not a chance. I like plenty of modern stock. Not all admittedly, but certainly a good proportion. I grew up in 302/310/312 territory but am quite happy with the 357s that replaced them, so why not the 323 - which *also* replaced the 310? (Actually, let's not go there.)

I know that most of you disagree with me on this matter. I just think they're horrid things that (internally anyway) seem as though they want to fall apart. They sound like Formula One cars when in practice they're electric wannabes plodding around the second and third largest cities and nowhere else. And they seem to be poorly maintained as well (I know that isn't to do with the units but it doesn't help).

Also, this idea of being designed for 20-minute journeys isn't much use in my opinion. Supposing your commute is from Redditch to Sutton Coldfield; that's an hour on the things - twice a day.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Not a chance. I like plenty of modern stock.

I know that most of you disagree with me on this matter. I just think they're horrid things that (internally anyway) seem as though they want to fall apart. They sound like Formula One cars when in practice they're electric wannabes plodding around the second and third largest cities and nowhere else. And they seem to be poorly maintained as well (I know that isn't to do with the units but it doesn't help).

Also, this idea of being designed for 20-minute journeys isn't much use in my opinion. Supposing your commute is from Redditch to Sutton Coldfield; that's an hour on the things - twice a day.

Meh suppose it's just a matter of opinion!

I think thats one of there attractive features to me is the traction motor sounds! As a very frequent traveler on them I think there very well suited to the job... Better than a 376!

As for Class 323s... I got to say... I do see a sort of resemblance to a 'Networker'!

 

[HSTEd]

The seating layout in a 323 looks strange, myself I think that 2+2 seating should be the standard with 3+2 only being used in extremely limited circumstances.


I've got a lot of laughs out of my Cl323 impression though.... glorious GTO drives

 

[150222]

I like them. Although the northern ones could do with 2x2 seating for Hadfield, Stoke & Crewe. Love the noise as well. Although how any member of crew who is slightly overweight can fit through that saloon-cab door is a mystery. Prefer 333's though.

 

[jopsuk]

As for Class 323s... I got to say... I do see a sort of resemblance to a 'Networker'!

There's a resemblance, but that's it. The 323s were designed by Hunslet to a Reginal Railways specifcation. As I understand it, the Networkers were essentially an in-house design at NSE, with the 465 build contracted out to BREL and Met-Cam- the impression I've got is that had NSE continued to replace everything with Networkers this arrangement would have continued, so we could have seen Siemens, CAF etc built Networkers.

 

[Lampshade]

They sound exactly the same as 465s, the seats and door buttons are also the same as a 465.

Capacity wise they put any other Northern (West) unit to shame, the refreshed floor no longer bubbles up and trips people and the refreshed seats have this amazing thing called 'padding', though the seats do feel like they've been covered with carpet. As for tables, most comparable units don't have them, the best comparison is the 465 which doesn't.

Speed... is 90mph not enough?

 

[Techniquest]

323s sound nothing like Networkers, especially the so-called Javworkers. Good grief those sound strange...

323s are one of my favourite EMU classes, so I'll always defend the little beasts. Can't believe anyone would rate Pacers over 323s, that's a little...strange to me!

 

[sprinterguy]

Where is sprinterguy when you need him?

I'm back, just running a little late.

I love the traction noise of the 323s, I think it's quirky and mildly amusing.

As for their other foibles that are perceived by Ivo, I don't see them. I think that they're a perfect commuter EMU for provincial cities, they're superb crowd-swallowers for a start, and the high density 3+2 seating layout works.

I travel on the London Midland examples quite regularly and the vast majority of the time I find them to be both clean and well maintained, which is quite an achievement for such an intensively used class of train. The Northern examples I've travelled on don't seem to have been lavished with nearly the same level of care and attention, but the interior layout is basically the same so there's no problem with that even if they can be a bit scruffy, but the ones I've travelled on have been in better nick than some downright filthy 150s and Pacers I've travelled on with Northern.

And they definitely don't "plod along". I think that they've got an incredible turn of acceleration on the demandingly frequent stop-start Cross City service. I've done a few reasonably long distance journeys on the units, such as Lichfield to Birmingham and Birmingham to Alevchurch and Redditch and found the journey fairly comfortable throughout.

 

[Techniquest]

Same on all accounts for me, they're brilliant units which do their job excellently, and as you say the timetable's quite demanding. Suits me as the drivers have to push the 323s to the max meaning some lively runs!

 

[junglejames]

Ivo, sounds like your expecting 323s to be Intercity trains. The interior whilst not the most pleasant, is good enough, and is suited for the day to day work they do. Seats are quite fine as well.
As for speed. Thats unfair because they never get the chance to really speed up. However they have got a good top speed, and acceleration wise, they put a lot of EMUs to shame.

 

[sprinterguy]

As for speed. Thats unfair because they never get the chance to really speed up.

They manage a fair old sprint between Perry Barr and Hamstead (Or is it Hamstead and Tame Bridge? I can never remember: One of those station to station sections is certainly very rapid though), and when they get released onto the fast lines between Longbridge and Barnt Green. I've no idea if they make it to the full 90mph, but it's quite impressively quick anyway. Surely the Northern units must get up to a fair lick somewhere on the Stoke services too?

 

[4SRKT]

I think Ivo simply has a blind spot when it comes to 323s. Rather like my own irrational loathing of 47s, nothing anyone can say about 323s will have the slightest impact on his thinking. My own issues come from deep psychological trauma inflicted by repeated bowlings by duffs in my youth, so I can only surmise that Ivo has had some similar trauma involving 323s that he has not yet disclosed.

On the subject of speed, 323s get up to a fair old whack between Holmes Chapel and Alderley Edge on the 'via Manchester Airports'.

 

[Ivo]

the refreshed floor no longer bubbles up and trips people

I could have sworn one of the 323s I went on in Manchester on Saturday did this more than any other train I had ever been on

I think Ivo simply has a blind spot when it comes to 323s. Rather like my own irrational loathing of 47s, nothing anyone can say about 323s will have the slightest impact on his thinking. My own issues come from deep psychological trauma inflicted by repeated bowlings by duffs in my youth, so I can only surmise that Ivo has had some similar trauma involving 323s that he has not yet disclosed.

One of them did cost me dearly in the NWM Challenge last year, but that's all I can think of. I hated the things by then anyway.

 

[323235]

They manage a fair old sprint between Perry Barr and Hamstead (Or is it Hamstead and Tame Bridge? I can never remember: One of those station to station sections is certainly very rapid though), and when they get released onto the fast lines between Longbridge and Barnt Green. I've no idea if they make it to the full 90mph, but it's quite impressively quick anyway. Surely the Northern units must get up to a fair lick somewhere on the Stoke services too?

They maintain a solid 90mph run between Macclesfield, Congleton, Kidsgrove and Stoke.

 

[jizzer]

As someone who drives these units I can say that they are brilliant units, I don't know a driver who doesn't like them. At the the moment they are undergoing C6 & C3 exams with all the interior getting renewed, (no more bubbling floor). They were never designed for 20 min commutes they are just a commuter train hence very quick acceleration and good brakes. They are restricted to 90 mph but if unrestricted could do 100/110 quite easily.
To say you prefer a 142 to a 323............keep taking the tablets mate!!!

 

[Tomonthetrain]

142+323=My ideal commute! However I currently have 172s

 

[junglejames]

Tell you what Ivo. Northern and LM can take our 375s, and we will take 323s down here in Kent! I kno what I find the most fun to travel on!