Gatwick Express - Private Eye Article

[hairyhandedfool]

Southern are not breaking Condition 10 by simply having Southern Only tickets.

They are breaking Condition 10 by not allowing Southern Only tickets to be used on Gatwick Express.

There is a small difference.

A small difference that bears no relation to condition 10.

Condition 10 states that a restriction to or prohibition from the services of a particular Train company or Companies must be shown on the ticket.

How are Southern breaking this condition?

 

[LexyBoy]

I'm getting a sense of dejà vu...

Is your point that Southern are not breaking condition 10 as there's nothing wrong with the way the tickets are worded (although they are not accepted on certain trains operated by Southern), or that GatEx is not Southern?

 

[bb21]

Is Gatwick Express a train company?

No.

If not, why would the restriction have to appear on the ticket?

It can't. There is no provision for tickets being restricted by brand in the NRCoC.

I'm sorry, I appear to have missed the part of condition 10 that says a Southern only ticket is valid on ALL services run by the "Southern Train Operating Company", please enlighten me.

If a ticket restricted to travel on a specific TOC is not valid on all services operated by that TOC, where would you draw that line? How is a passenger supposed to know which services are included and which are not?

A small difference that bears no relation to condition 10.

Condition 10 states that a restriction to or prohibition from the services of a particular Train company or Companies must be shown on the ticket.

How are Southern breaking this condition?

Gatwick Express is not a separate Train Company, which is the case we have. Condition 10 is in play as Southern cannot then restrict tickets to be available on Southern-branded services but not Gatwick Express-branded services. There is no provision for tickets to be restricted by brands.

Southern are of course permitted to have Southern Only fares, only that they should be valid on Gatwick Express. If they are not, then what type of restriction is the wording Southern Only? It certainly is not the type referred to in Condition 10.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Gatwick Express is not a separate Train Company, which is the case we have. Condition 10 is in play as Southern cannot then restrict tickets to be available on Southern-branded services but not Gatwick Express-branded services. There is no provision for tickets to be restricted by brands.

I know it's pedantry, but they are already. Otherwise Southern Only would read Southern Railway Limited and Virgin Only would read West Coast Trains Limited etc etc.

 

[bb21]

I know it's pedantry, but they are already. Otherwise Southern Only would read Southern Railway Limited and Virgin Only would read West Coast Trains Limited etc etc.

Maybe, but that does not necessarily make it right according to the NRCoC.

The difficulty is that there is no confusion in the case of Virgin Trains, as it represents West Coast Trains Limited in its entirety, which is clearly not the case with Southern.

Aren't we just going through the same arguments again?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If Gatwick Express is not part of Southern then condition 10 is complied with because the restriction to the services of a particular train company (Southern Only) is noted on the ticket. If Gatwick Express is part of Southern then condition 10 is complied with because the restriction to the services of a particular train company (Southern Only) is noted on the ticket.

Some people seem to be confusing....

"...the services of a particular train company or companies..."

....with....

"...the particular services of a train company or companies..."

....and so end up with a different idea of what condition 10 actually says.

Now the question of Gatwick Express being the same company or not, or even if it is okay to use trading names on the ticket is an entirely separate issue.

So unless someone can explain how Southern are breaking the condition, then I think we can say it is not an issue.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Maybe, but that does not necessarily make it right according to the NRCoC.

The difficulty is that there is no confusion in the case of Virgin Trains, as it represents West Coast Trains Limited in its entirety, which is clearly not the case with Southern.

Aren't we just going through the same arguments again?

Yes Frankly, we aren't going to know unless the DfT rule one way or the other.

 

[bb21]

If Gatwick Express is not part of Southern then condition 10 is complied with because the restriction to the services of a particular train company (Southern Only) is noted on the ticket. If Gatwick Express is part of Southern then condition 10 is complied with because the restriction to the services of a particular train company (Southern Only) is noted on the ticket.

Some people seem to be confusing....

"...the services of a particular train company or companies..."

....with....

"...the particular services of a train company or companies..."

....and so end up with a different idea of what condition 10 actually says.

Now the question of Gatwick Express being the same company or not, or even if it is okay to use trading names on the ticket is an entirely separate issue.

So unless someone can explain how Southern are breaking the condition, then I think we can say it is not an issue.

I get your point. So the question is whether the word restriction is applied to "services" or "company".

I'm not sure this has been clearly defined anywhere, which I hope, would mean that there is confusion, hence the most favourable...

Has it ever been documented how this sentence should be interpreted?

Edit:

I don't actually think it is intended to be interpreted the way you mentioned. Ldn Midland Only certainly is not a restriction on services operated by LM, as a ticket routed as such is valid on any London Midland service. Same with Virgin TrnsOnly. Same with XC Only...

 

[bluenoxid]

Yes Frankly, we aren't going to know unless the DfT rule one way or the other.

Surely it then comes down to where they trade from then with the use of "brand" name.

As Southern and Gatwick Express trade from the same company, then the use of brand to define tickets as separate is rather dodgy territory for this route as they are both the same company.

The whole thing is beyond me for a Friday morning and I will leave it to you guys to filter the muck from the mud.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....If a ticket restricted to travel on a specific TOC is not valid on all services operated by that TOC, where would you draw that line? How is a passenger supposed to know which services are included and which are not?....

That has nothing to do with condition 10 though has it?

....There is no provision for tickets to be restricted by brands....

Really? First Great Western, Cross Country, East Coast, Scotrail, London Midland, Southern, Gatwick Express, South West Trains and Virgin Trains are all trading names. How many of those do you see on tickets?.

....Southern are of course permitted to have Southern Only fares, only that they should be valid on Gatwick Express. If they are not, then what type of restriction is the wording Southern Only? It certainly is not the type referred to in Condition 10.

Isn't it? In what way is it in breach of condition 10?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I get your point. So the question is whether the word restriction is applied to "services" or "company".

I'm not sure this has been clearly defined anywhere, which I hope, would mean that there is confusion, hence the most favourable....

Taking it logically, if every service has to be listed on the ticket, tickets would need to be made a lot bigger. If it is just the company, then everything is fine as it is.

 

[yorkie]

I know it's pedantry, but they are already. Otherwise Southern Only would read Southern Railway Limited and Virgin Only would read West Coast Trains Limited etc etc.

No, Virgin Trains is the recognised name from the passenger perspective. In both cases, there is one Company. The NRCoC is quite clear; the restriction applies to Company. Please don't muddy the waters by drawing similarities between Virgin Trains and Southern/Gatwick Express. There are none.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes Frankly, we aren't going to know unless the DfT rule one way or the other.

The DfT have already ruled. They have been asked several times to inform us whether, for the purposes of NRCoC, Gatwick Express is a Company. The answer is always the same. Surely you can accept the most recent letter is as absolutely clear as it possibly can be?!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

No, Virgin Trains is the recognised name from the passenger perspective. In both cases, there is one Company. The NRCoC is quite clear; the restriction applies to Company. Please don't muddy the waters by drawing similarities between Virgin Trains and Southern/Gatwick Express. There are none.

Exactly, the restriction applies to the company. Of which there are no companies called Virgin Trains, South West Trains, or anything else. If you are going to argue that they apply to a company then you have to accept that. You can't have your cake and eat it.

The DfT have already ruled. They have been asked several times to inform us whether, for the purposes of NRCoC, Gatwick Express is a Company. The answer is always the same. Surely you can accept the most recent letter is as absolutely clear as it possibly can be?!

Then why are Southern still doing it? Clearly because the DfT haven't told them otherwise? Surely you can understand therefore that a letter to you does not count as the DfT ruling one way or the other?

 

[yorkie]

If Gatwick Express is not part of Southern then condition 10 is complied with because the restriction to the services of a particular train company (Southern Only) is noted on the ticket. If Gatwick Express is part of Southern then condition 10 is complied with because the restriction to the services of a particular train company (Southern Only) is noted on the ticket.

Some people seem to be confusing....

"...the services of a particular train company or companies..."

....with....

"...the particular services of a train company or companies..."

....and so end up with a different idea of what condition 10 actually says.

Now the question of Gatwick Express being the same company or not, or even if it is okay to use trading names on the ticket is an entirely separate issue.

So unless someone can explain how Southern are breaking the condition, then I think we can say it is not an issue.

A ticket is valid unless there is some reason why it is not valid.

So, I have an Anytime ticket routed Southern Only, the ticket has no time restrictions on the trains I can take, and it is valid on all trains operated by the Train Operating Company stated on the ticket - which, as the DfT confirms - includes trains branded Gatwick Express.

Therefore, on what grounds could the ticket be rejected?

The same applies on Greater Anglia. If I have an Anytime ticket routed Greater Anglia Only (or whatever name they print on tickets these days; probably still NXEA Only for now!), it is valid on all trains valid by the Train Operating Company stated on the ticket, and that would include trains branded Stansted Express.

Rather than claim that tickets can be rejected for no apparent reason, which is nonsense, you need to accept the fact that tickets are in fact valid unless a restriction (under Route or Validity) says they are not.

I think you need to stop considering the fact that Southern could use the Validity field to restrict some trains, because they have chosen not to, and even if they did that can only be done to the Off Peak category of tickets, not Anytime!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Exactly, the restriction applies to the company. Of which there are no companies called Virgin Trains, South West Trains, or anything else. If you are going to argue that they apply to a company then you have to accept that. You can't have your cake and eat it.

No, you can't have your cake and eat it, and neither can Southern.

http://www.atoc.org/train-companies says you are wrong.

Also see http://www.atoc.org/train-companies/southern

This is the correct information (And before you go quoting from NRES, they is incorrect; they are a part of ATOC that is less compliant, and it's for DfT to decide what is correct, not you).

Then why are Southern still doing it? Clearly because the DfT haven't told them otherwise? Surely you can understand therefore that a letter to you does not count as the DfT ruling one way or the other?

Have you actually read the letter? Southern agreed with DfT that Gat Ex is not a separate TOC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Taking it logically, if every service has to be listed on the ticket, tickets would need to be made a lot bigger. If it is just the company, then everything is fine as it is.

Your logic is different to the logic of everyone else I've ever met.

A ticket is valid unless there is a restriction stating otherwise. It is not, as you seem to think, the other way round!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A ticket is valid unless there is some reason why it is not valid....

I see no reason to argue with that statement.

....So, I have an Anytime ticket routed Southern Only, the ticket has no time restrictions on the trains I can take, and it is valid on all trains operated by the Train Operating Company stated on the ticket - which, as the DfT confirms - includes trains branded Gatwick Express.

Therefore, on what grounds could the ticket be rejected?....

That only brings into question the use of trading names, as the Train Operating Company is Southern Railway Limited. "Southern" is only the trading name for a (major) part of the Train Operating Company.

In any case the NRCoC doesn't state train Operating Company, it says Train Company, which it defines as....

“Train Company” means a company operating passenger railway services which
is required to apply these Conditions to its tickets under a condition of the
Passenger Licence granted to it by the Office of Rail Regulation. A list of these
companies can be found in Appendix C. “Train Companies” means all or more
than one of these Companies;

And as both "Southern" and "Gatwick Express" are listed, both are 'Train Companies' as far as the NRCoC is concerned.

It is interesting you chose an Anytime ticket and not Off-Peak. Do you consider that an Off-Peak would need more wording on it?

....The same applies on Greater Anglia. If I have an Anytime ticket routed Greater Anglia Only (or whatever name they print on tickets these days; probably still NXEA Only for now!), it is valid on all trains valid by the Train Operating Company stated on the ticket, and that would include trains branded Stansted Express....

If Cross Country wanted to accept 'East Coast Only' tickets, what would stop them?

....Rather than claim that tickets can be rejected for no apparent reason, which is nonsense, you need to accept the fact that tickets are in fact valid unless a restriction (under Route or Validity) says they are not....

Like on Off-Peak tickets? or Rovers?

I don't deny that tickets are valid unless they are not.

....I think you need to stop considering the fact that Southern could use the Validity field to restrict some trains, because they have chosen not to, and even if they did that can only be done to the Off Peak category of tickets, not Anytime!....

Do they need to use the validity field to restrict some of their trains but not others? I haven't seen that written anywhere.

....Your logic is different to the logic of everyone else I've ever met.

A ticket is valid unless there is a restriction stating otherwise. It is not, as you seem to think, the other way round!

My logic is infallible in this case.

If condition 10 says that if the ticket is restricted to the services of a particular company then it has to be printed on the ticket, then the services have to be shown on the ticket to comply.

If condition 10 says that if the ticket is restricted to the services of a particular company then it has to be printed on the ticket, then the particular train company has to be shown on the ticket to comply.

So in your opinion, according to condition 10, what wording should appear on a Super Off-Peak Return, which is valid only for travel on the services of London & Birmingham Railway Limited, if it was not valid on any of the services provided by London & Birmingham Railway Limited that are timed to depart any station before 0930?

 

[WillPS]

That only brings into question the use of trading names, as the Train Operating Company is Southern Railway Limited. "Southern" is only the trading name for a (major) part of the Train Operating Company.

Except it isn't - see the footer of the Gatwick Express website for confirmation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If Cross Country wanted to accept 'East Coast Only' tickets, what would stop them?

They get no revenue from that ticket and they are not at all compelled to carry passengers baring them. Don't see a similarity between that and Gatwick Express/Southern, who do get all the revenue from a Southern Only ticket and are compelled to carry passengers baring them.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Except it isn't - see the footer of the Gatwick Express website for confirmation....

The NRCoC, which forms part of the contract held with the railway, says "Southern" is a trading name. If I bought a Southern only ticket from the East Coast Website, I would have no contract with either the Southern website or Gatwick Express website. What they say is, in terms of my contract with the railway, irrelevant.

....They get no revenue from that ticket and they are not at all compelled to carry passengers baring them. Don't see a similarity between that and Gatwick Express/Southern, who do get all the revenue from a Southern Only ticket and are compelled to carry passengers baring them.

'Not compelled to' doesn't mean they can't. If they wanted to accept those tickets, even if they got no money from it, what would stop them?

The comparison is with Yorkie's example of Stansted Express accepting NXEA only tickets despite the NRCoC listing them as separate trading names (and hence different train companies).

 

[yorkie]

That only brings into question the use of trading names, as the Train Operating Company is Southern Railway Limited. "Southern" is only the trading name for a (major) part of the Train Operating Company.

In any case the NRCoC doesn't state train Operating Company, it says Train Company, which it defines as....

“Train Company” means a company operating passenger railway services which
is required to apply these Conditions to its tickets under a condition of the
Passenger Licence granted to it by the Office of Rail Regulation. A list of these
companies can be found in Appendix C. “Train Companies” means all or more
than one of these Companies;

And as both "Southern" and "Gatwick Express" are listed, both are 'Train Companies' as far as the NRCoC is concerned.

This is not correct. The DfT were asked the question specifically and explicitly for the purposes of NRCoC Condition 10 - that was made very clear in the initial request. I am wondering you have chosen not to read the correspondence with the DfT or perhaps you have forgotten?

There have been several requests made to DfT, all with slightly different wording, most of them made it clear that the request was made in order to interpret NRCoC.

I would have been shocked if the DfT had agreed with you and Southern that Gatwick Express was a Company, however they did not agree with you and their decision is quite abundantly clear, absolutely correct, and final.

It is interesting you chose an Anytime ticket and not Off-Peak. Do you consider that an Off-Peak would need more wording on it?

You appear to be confusing time/train restrictions with route restrictions. If Southern wanted to restrict by train, then the restriction code for an Off Peak ticket could say something not "Valid on trains from Victoria EXCEPT for the following:" with a great big long list, just like FGW does (only it would be much longer and apply in both directions). If they did that, then such trains would indeed become barred on the tickets that have that restriction text.

If Cross Country wanted to accept 'East Coast Only' tickets, what would stop them?

TOCs can give you more rights but not less.

Like on Off-Peak tickets? or Rovers?

They have a restriction code, but Anytime tickets by definition have no time restrictions.

I don't deny that tickets are valid unless they are not.

In that case the argument should end now!

Do they need to use the validity field to restrict some of their trains but not others? I haven't seen that written anywhere.

How else can they restrict them? They are not allowed to restrict by route unless there is a different geographical route (e.g. Route Redhill would force passengers onto slow trains most - but not all - of the time!)

My logic is infallible in this case.

Many people disagree.

If condition 10 says that if the ticket is restricted to the services of a particular company then it has to be printed on the ticket, then the services have to be shown on the ticket to comply.

The 'service' is to convey travel. Travel is allowed on all trains operated by Southern, that includes Gatwick Express which is not a separate company.

If condition 10 says that if the ticket is restricted to the services of a particular company then it has to be printed on the ticket, then the particular train company has to be shown on the ticket to comply.

That company is Southern and it is clear from the DfT and the main ATOC site that Southern is the company running trains branded Gatwick Express and they also run Brighton Express, these are merely brand names and not Companies.

So in your opinion, according to condition 10, what wording should appear on a Super Off-Peak Return, which is valid only for travel on the services of London & Birmingham Railway Limited, if it was not valid on any of the services provided by London & Birmingham Railway Limited that are timed to depart any station before 0930?

The Validity field would say "See restrictions". There would be a restriction code that restricts such trains. Southern could do the same with Southern Only Off Peak tickets! But they have, so far, chosen not to. There's nothing to stop them doing that.

 

[WillPS]

The NRCoC, which forms part of the contract held with the railway, says "Southern" is a trading name. If I bought a Southern only ticket from the East Coast Website, I would have no contract with either the Southern website or Gatwick Express website. What they say is, in terms of my contract with the railway, irrelevant.

Right, so if I buy the ticket from Southern's website you concede the ticket is valid, then?

 

[island]

To be honest, the best way to make more money from GatEx would be to allow tickets to be purchased onboard, for a £2-3 surcharge, like HEX. People in a rush, or simply wanting the convenience of not queuing up, would then have a chance to voluntarily pay a premium. It would mean continuing to put a TM on the train, but what's the harm in doing that?

I'm not sure that you can do that. The HEX is a special case because it's a fully private service (and I don't think the NRCoCs apply to HEX-only journeys).

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps FCC should rebrand some 365s and sell different tickets for a separate 'Cambridge Cruiser' service. Then pretend to be another company.

Why aren't there special fares for the Brighton Express in that basis. In fact, for all fast trains!

(I am being sarcastic but it is a valid question)

Sent from my Commodore 64 using Tapatalk

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Right, so if I buy the ticket from Southern's website you concede the ticket is valid, then?

No, because the contract is the same regardless of where the ticket is bought (Even Yorkie must agree here).

This is not correct. The DfT were asked the question specifically and explicitly for the purposes of NRCoC Condition 10 - that was made very clear in the initial request. I am wondering you have chosen not to read the correspondence with the DfT or perhaps you have forgotten?

There have been several requests made to DfT, all with slightly different wording, most of them made it clear that the request was made in order to interpret NRCoC.....

The DfT also approve changes to the NRCoC and I believe they can ask ATOC to submit changes if they deem that necessary. I'll remind you that Gatwick Express is listed (as of October 2011) as a trading name of Southern Railway Limited and hence as a 'train company'.

....I would have been shocked if the DfT had agreed with you and Southern that Gatwick Express was a Company, however they did not agree with you and their decision is quite abundantly clear, absolutely correct, and final....

And yet the NRCoC hasn't changed. I should point out that whilst the NRCoC is part of the contract, a letter, email or phone call from the DfT is not.

....You appear to be confusing time/train restrictions with route restrictions. If Southern wanted to restrict by train, then the restriction code for an Off Peak ticket could say something not "Valid on trains from Victoria EXCEPT for the following:" with a great big long list, just like FGW does (only it would be much longer and apply in both directions). If they did that, then such trains would indeed become barred on the tickets that have that restriction text....

Do you deliberately miss the point or is it a natural talent?

If condition 10 applies to the services of any company, those services MUST be printed on the ticket.

If condition 10 applies to the train company, that company MUST be printed on the ticket.

If it is the former, why are train times not on the ticket?
If it is the later, why are Southern in breach of condition 10?

....TOCs can give you more rights but not less....

So you admit your Stansted Express example is flawed?

....They have a restriction code, but Anytime tickets by definition have no time restrictions.....

But they can be restricted by train company as listed in the NRCoC.

....In that case the argument should end now!....

You know how you can stop it, you won't because, from what I have seen, you never do, even when you are wrong.

How else can they restrict them? They are not allowed to restrict by route unless there is a different geographical route (e.g. Route Redhill would force passengers onto slow trains most - but not all - of the time!)....

Rovers are restricted, perhaps there is your answer? Maybe they can be restricted by train company (as listed in the NRCoC)?

....Many people disagree....

'People' have that choice, there is nothing I can do about that.

....The 'service' is to convey travel. Travel is allowed on all trains operated by Southern, that includes Gatwick Express which is not a separate company....

All trains? Even on an Off-Peak Return 'Rte Southern Only'? What about 'Rte Not Gatwick Exp'? Are they valid on all Southern services? Are they valid on none?

....That company is Southern and it is clear from the DfT and the main ATOC site that Southern is the company running trains branded Gatwick Express and they also run Brighton Express, these are merely brand names and not Companies....

Southern is a trade name that is listed as a train company in the NRCoC, as is Gatwick Express, and Transpennine Express, East Coast, First Great Western, South West Trains, National Express East Anglia, Scotrail and Virgin Trains.

....The Validity field would say "See restrictions". There would be a restriction code that restricts such trains. Southern could do the same with Southern Only Off Peak tickets! But they have, so far, chosen not to. There's nothing to stop them doing that.

Maybe they don't need to. Maybe DfT, ATOC and Southern are all happy to use the list of Train Companies in the NRCoC to refer to Companies when it comes to the NRCoC.

 

[dvboy]

Have you actually read the letter? Southern agreed with DfT that Gat Ex is not a separate TOC.

Do you have a link to this letter please?

 

[MikeWh]

Maybe they don't need to. Maybe DfT, ATOC and Southern are all happy to use the list of Train Companies in the NRCoC to refer to Companies when it comes to the NRCoC.

HHF: Do you agree that the definition of a train company in appendix a of the NRCoC says that it is a company holding a licence to run trains? Do you agree that there is only one licence covering all operations of Southern Railway Ltd? The fact that a company is listed more than once with different brands does not suddenly make it two companies.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

HHF: Do you agree that the definition of a train company in appendix a of the NRCoC says that it is a company holding a licence to run trains? Do you agree that there is only one licence covering all operations of Southern Railway Ltd? The fact that a company is listed more than once with different brands does not suddenly make it two companies.

And what does the second and third sentences of Appendix A (Q) say?

 

[Deerfold]

I might see some case for hhf's argument if the tickets said "Not GatWckX" or similar but they say "Southern only".

Even if you argue that there is a second "virtual" company operating the Gatwick Express it's still a subsidiary of Southern.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I believe that is the intended meaning, although it is rather long winded about it, however it does state, "...as listed in Appendix C" which does list both Gatwick Express and Southern as trading names. I may not be qualified to say exactly how that translates though. It is my understanding that Southern Railway Limited (trading as Gatwick Express) and Southern Railway Limited (trading as Southern) have a license to operate trains.

I agree that the fact that "Southern Railway Limited" being listed twice doesn't necessarily make them separate 'train operating companies', but I can't say that it does not make them two 'train companies' as defined by the NRCoC. The fact that they, Island Line, South West Trains, National Express East Anglia and Stansted Express are listed separately suggests there is a reason for it though.

 

[Wolfie]

I believe that is the intended meaning, although it is rather long winded about it, however it does state, "...as listed in Appendix C" which does list both Gatwick Express and Southern as trading names. I may not be qualified to say exactly how that translates though. It is my understanding that Southern Railway Limited (trading as Gatwick Express) and Southern Railway Limited (trading as Southern) have a license to operate trains.

I agree that the fact that "Southern Railway Limited" being listed twice doesn't necessarily make them separate 'train operating companies', but I can't say that it does not make them two 'train companies' as defined by the NRCoC. The fact that they, Island Line, South West Trains, National Express East Anglia and Stansted Express are listed separately suggests there is a reason for it though.

Well, I wish Southern (or "Gatwick Express") luck in prosecuting anyone on the basis you are citing. Me learned friends will rip them a new ar$ehole, not least because of the fundamental premise of general consumer law.

About the only benefit, and exactly the reason they will not undertake any such prosecution, is that it would massively increase the pressure on politicians to review the horribly dated, consumer unfriendly, legal basis upon which the railways operate fares structures. Does anyone really believe ATOC wants that to happen.......

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm sure Southern Railway Limited know exactly what the situation is in relation to Gatwick Express (otherwise they wouldn't know what they are contracted to do!), but I have only the NRCoC to go by and that lists Gatwick Express and Southern as separate trading names and seemingly as separate train companies. Of course, none of that really changes what Condition 10 says.

 

[WillPS]

No, because the contract is the same regardless of where the ticket is bought (Even Yorkie must agree here).

I don't disagree - a ticket is a ticket. However, if one purchases a "Southern Only" ticket from Southern's website which proudly displays Gatwick Express on the Southern Route Map - it is reasonable to expect this ticket to be valid on the Gatwick Express service "operated by Southern".

As others have said you're taking a trading name listing as a "company name". I'd really love to see Southern try and make that hold up in court:
Your honour - we are asking for the prosecution of x for fare dodging. An agent of the plaintiff, Southern Railway Ltd., found the defendant on board one of their services running under the Gatwick Express brand in possession of a ticket marked as valid on "Southern Only". Clearly they are in breach of the Railway Act, as they were not travelling on Southern operated service but a Gatwick Express service (which is operated by Southern).

 

[jon0844]

I'd love to know of any one person who has been taken to court and fined/prosecuted for travelling with a Southern Only ticket on the Gatwick Express. Not people who voluntarily bought the story that it's another company and paid up on the train, but those who stuck to their guns and tried to fight it.

I am certain Southern will cave in every time, but always as a 'goodwill gesture' to avoid admitting liability. They're happy to do that given how many people will either pay up, or simply not 'try' in the first place - as I know plenty of people wouldn't (they'd rather be ripped off for an easy life than get into an argument on a train, right or wrong).

I don't believe the DfT has much incentive to step in and sort this out - so they're rather hoping they can confirm what they need to and let Southern sort it out itself. I see very little reason for them to feel under pressure to intervene, at least until the press gets involved, or an MP etc.

ATOC, as said about, must know all about this (they read this forum for one, and they've been asked by members surely too) but it would highlight one of many issues with ticketing. So, they can also sit back.

Southern knows it is in the wrong, but as long as nobody is standing up to them (properly, not just arguing on a train) then they can do everything to confuse and make things go around in circles. That's what they're doing. They know it will put most people off, and those who stand up to them will win.

It's no different to other TOCs giving penalty fares out to all and sundry, then saying 'Hey, just take this PF today and you can appeal in 28 days' and hoping people will just accept to get away quickly than standing their ground if they weren't liable to pay a penalty fare (e.g. a ticket office was unexpectedly closed etc).

Remember when councils also dished out loads of parking penalties which weren't legal, and in many cases it was well known. How many people paid up anyway? A lot, I'm sure. Sadly, too many people just want an easy life.

Anyway, I've written far more than I needed to so I'll shut up now!