Gatwick Express - Private Eye Article

[thedbdiboy]

Well, the DfT disagrees. The DfT is the regulator. End of!

Er, actually the Office of the Rail Regulator is the regulator. The DfT is the Franchising Authority.

 

[yorkie]

Er, actually the Office of the Rail Regulator is the regulator. The DfT is the Franchising Authority.

Hmm, well someone contacted the ORR about this and they were told it was the DfT, and not them, who are responsible for regulating fares & NRCoC matters.

See http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/are_gatwick_express_and_stansted

 

[OwlMan]

Er, actually the Office of the Rail Regulator is the regulator. The DfT is the Franchising Authority.

No for fares & routeing and other retail activities it used to be the SRA.
The SRA's resposibilities have been taken over by the DfT, so the DfT is now the regulator for these matters.

Peter

 

[jon0844]

Did someone from here just post a follow-up with a scanned letter from the DfT on the GatEx Facebook page?!

https://www.facebook.com/gatwickexpress?sk=wall&filter=1 (Not sure if that link will work for anyone else, and it will show the latest post which may mean this post gets moved down over time, if it isn't deleted entirely).

 

[Wolfie]

There's nothing special about the Gatwick Express at all. Some more room put aside from luggage, and nobody else on the train (not likely to be part of the plan) but that's about it. It basically has no stops on the way, but isn't that much quicker despite that.

Heathrow Express charges a fortune for its route, but besides free Wi-Fi you don't get anything extra in first class there either. In fact, no tea or coffee at all - free or not.

HEX can get busy, so first class might be worth the money for your seat and table. However, if GatEx is usually half empty, you'd simply be better off not paying for FC at all and using that money to pay for your tea or coffee!

True BUT at least HEX is actually the fastest way to the airport......

 

[jon0844]

Yes, that's very true.

 

[Deerfold]

True BUT at least HEX is actually the fastest way to the airport......

So long as you're starting in Paddington...

 

[jon0844]

So long as you're starting in Paddington...

Well, yes. For me, Heathrow Connect is the next choice before the tube. However, I hadn't realised that from Hatfield, the quickest way by far is actually coach. The downside being the frequency, which means the train possibly still wins more times than not.

Sent from my Commodore 64 using Tapatalk

 

[Yew]

Im quite interested to see southerns response to this, they cant really say that a higher authority is wrong can they.

If there isnt a reply in the next few days ill put a post in

 

[thedbdiboy]

Er, actually the Office of the Rail Regulator is the regulator. The DfT is the Franchising Authority.

The DfT have been happily writing to people saying that GatEx/Southern are one TOC, but I see no evidence whatsoever of them wading in and actually doing any regulating in this case. Regulation in its true sense involves arbitration and binding decision making. I realise that it is semantics, but what they actually do (which is what the SRA used to do) is enforce compliance - only they aren't in this case, they're sitting on the fence!

 

[jon0844]

I bet if Private Eye, or a major newspaper, was to actually take such a thing seriously (but is it of real interest to most people?) then Southern would quickly fold.

Southern can still promote the Express service, and by lowering the charges (i.e. allowing Southern tickets) they may actually fill the trains that don't go beyond Gatwick - which in turn may relieve pressure on other services.

To be honest, the best way to make more money from GatEx would be to allow tickets to be purchased onboard, for a £2-3 surcharge, like HEX. People in a rush, or simply wanting the convenience of not queuing up, would then have a chance to voluntarily pay a premium. It would mean continuing to put a TM on the train, but what's the harm in doing that?

At both Gatwick and Victoria, you can still advertise the next 'fast' service as normal and brand it accordingly.

 

[Wolfie]

I bet if Private Eye, or a major newspaper, was to actually take such a thing seriously (but is it of real interest to most people?) then Southern would quickly fold.

Southern can still promote the Express service, and by lowering the charges (i.e. allowing Southern tickets) they may actually fill the trains that don't go beyond Gatwick - which in turn may relieve pressure on other services.

To be honest, the best way to make more money from GatEx would be to allow tickets to be purchased onboard, for a £2-3 surcharge, like HEX. People in a rush, or simply wanting the convenience of not queuing up, would then have a chance to voluntarily pay a premium. It would mean continuing to put a TM on the train, but what's the harm in doing that?

At both Gatwick and Victoria, you can still advertise the next 'fast' service as normal and brand it accordingly.

Seems that the HEX onboard STD class supplement is now £5!!!

 

[embers25]

Did someone from here just post a follow-up with a scanned letter from the DfT on the GatEx Facebook page?!

https://www.facebook.com/gatwickexpress?sk=wall&filter=1 (Not sure if that link will work for anyone else, and it will show the latest post which may mean this post gets moved down over time, if it isn't deleted entirely).

Worked fine for me:

Just called that number and first Troy told me that I couldn't use it as GEx is a seperate company and then Escalation Supervisor Endaf first said GEx was separate from Southern and when I quoted the DfT letter word for word he changed his view to it being not allowed as GEx is an express service. I pointed out that most fast Brighton trains are branded and referred to as Express in their own timetables so did that mean Southern tickets were no longer valid on those trains to Brighton. He then said it was a specific restriction and so I questioned that given routeing should be a station or a TOC or both not a made up name. At which point he got flustered and said that as Gatwick Express tickets cost a lot more than Southern then Southern ones weren't valid and with a Southern ticket I would get a Penalty Fare (also incorrect). Finally he said he needed to speak to a manager and will call me back. I know Private Eye have raised this and we have been campaigning vigorously against this. I told him that the GEx Facebook page had encouraged people to call them and so hopefully people will again as eventually we have to win this as they are plain wrong and have also both accepted tickets without supplement and refunded surcharges upon appeal so they know they are wrong.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I have seen mention in this thread of NRCoC Condition 10 being broken. To those who think Southern are breaking this condition by saying a 'Southern only' ticket is not valid on Gatwick Express, and that Gatwick Express are run by Southern and/or are the same company, can you please explain how they are doing so.

I don't think Southern are right in trying to say Gatwick Express is a different company, it is a different brand for sure.

 

[MikeWh]

I have seen mention in this thread of NRCoC Condition 10 being broken. To those who think Southern are breaking this condition by saying a 'Southern only' ticket is not valid on Gatwick Express, and that Gatwick Express are run by Southern and/or are the same company, can you please explain how they are doing so.

I don't think Southern are right in trying to say Gatwick Express is a different company, it is a different brand for sure.

I'll try. Condition 10 states that a restriction can be applied by "Train Company" or "Train Companies". In Appendix A definition q is:

“Train Company” means a company operating passenger railway services which
is required to apply these Conditions to its tickets under a condition of the
Passenger Licence granted to it by the Office of Rail Regulation. A list of these
companies can be found in Appendix C. “Train Companies” means all or more
than one of these Companies;

While the list in Appendix C includes both brands run by Southern Railway Ltd, there is only one company with a passenger licence granted to it by the ORR.

My personal view: It's a cockup that one of many highly paid lawyers working for either Southern, the DfT or ORR really ought to have spotted when the negotiations over the transfer of GEx to Southern were taking place.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So if the ticket is restricted to the services of 'Southern' and the ticket says 'Rte Southern Only', in what way are they breaking condition 10?

 

[embers25]

Liam Ludlow from Southern has just called me back and said the differentiation in Appendix C purely exists to enable Southern to charge extra fro GEx as the only way GEx can be restricted is if it appears in Appendix C. He said that I could only travel on Southern Rail services operated by Southern not Southern Rail services operated by GEx. I pointed out that the GEx website says GEx "Operated by Southern" so by his own words I could use GEx! I suggested that if nothing else they at least need to change their GEx website to be "Operated by Southern Railway" as without the word "railway" how could he argue it wasn't Southern! I also notice that the Southern site says "Welcome to Southern Railway check out the latest Southern offers" clearly trying to distinguish the two! Shame the GEx site doesn't! He did also say there would be no change but he will speak to the franchise manager in both Southern and DfT to clarify...so basically no joy!!! He suggested contacting DfT or ATOC if unhappy!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So if the ticket is restricted to the services of 'Southern' and the ticket says 'Rte Southern Only', in what way are they breaking condition 10?

Liam from Southern said that tickets can only by routed by a TOC and that in this case Southern Railway is the TOC. The way he claims they get around it is that Southern and GEx are "special" and defined as two independent TOC's within a TOC which must surely not be allowed. However he claims this has NEVER been raised during his meetings with DfT! He did at least agree that given the two other staff that talked to me both gave incorrect excuses that retraining was needed so staff understand this "complex situation" and that Southern wish to make it as transparent as possible for passengers....so clear as mud is transparent!!!!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yes, yes, yes, but.... If the ticket is restricted to the services of 'Southern' and the ticket says 'Rte Southern Only', in what way are they breaking condition 10?

 

[embers25]

Yes, yes, yes, but.... If the ticket is restricted to the services of 'Southern' and the ticket says 'Rte Southern Only', in what way are they breaking condition 10?

Because the GEx website says "GEx operated by Southen" therefore they themselves say it is a service of Southern. If the website said "GEx operated by Southern Railway" then maybe you might be right

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Okay, I'll try to simplify.

If Gatwick Express is not part of Southern, how are they breaking condition 10?

If Gatwick Express is part of Southern, how are they breaking condition 10?

In other words, how are they breaking condition 10?

 

[embers25]

Okay, I'll try to simplify.

If Gatwick Express is not part of Southern, how are they breaking condition 10?

If Gatwick Express is part of Southern, how are they breaking condition 10?

In other words, how are they breaking condition 10?

My tickets says route Southern only and that means valid on Southern Railway services operated by their "Southern" arm and the GEx website says it operated by "Southern" so is a "Southern" arm service therefore my ticket is valid by Condition 10. If the website said "GEx operated by Southern Railway" then it technically wouldn't be valid by Condition 10.

They basically need to change all the maps, literature and websites to say "GEx a Southern Railway Company" and "Southern, a Southern Railway Company" only they can't because legally GEx and Southern are not TOC's or Companies despite what Appendix C says. You cannot be a Train Operating Company without actually being a company despite ATOC's made up Appendix C

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Condition 10 says

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies

The validity of a ticket may:

a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit

travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.....

So how would Southern be breaking it by saying 'Southern Only' tickets are not valid on Gatwick Express?

 

[embers25]

Condition 10 says

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies

The validity of a ticket may:

a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit

travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.....

So how would Southern be breaking it by saying 'Southern Only' tickets are not valid on Gatwick Express?

The GEx website says GEx is a Southern service that means its TOC is Southern by their argument and so a Southern only ticket has to be valid unless the ticket is clearly printed "Southern Only Except GEx".

By Condtion 10 a TOC CANNOT ban passengers from travelling on certain services without it being printed on the ticket and if GEx is operated by Southern then the ticket MUST say "Southern except GEx trains"

How is this so complicated, it is very basic logic.

If GEx change their website to operated by Southern Railway they have more argument but even then Southern and GEx are the same TOC regardless of what Southern say.

 

[jon0844]

There's only limited space on the ticket, so they can't say 'except GatEx' and if the argument is now about Southern and Southern Railway, then what about the Ltd bit - or indeed, if GatEx would be clearly known as Gatwick Express.

What's more, many trains just say 'Express' without the Gatwick bit! All of this is a total cock up by Southern, ATOC and/or DfT. I believe that if tested in court, it would be ruled that Southern would mean both, simply as they couldn't fit on any more words to further clarify. No member of the public would be expected to think anything else.

That's why it won't ever get to court. Southern has cleverly worked out that by making this go around in circles continuously, there will never be any confirmed answer and so they can continue doing what they want to do. If the DfT did mess up, they may well agree to 'stand back' and not get involved, simply to allow Southern to get away with it.

Eventually when they all become one single franchise, no doubt the Southern only deals will go anyway - as there will be no incentive to offer special fares with no competition with FCC.

I am definitely torn between thinking Southern are clueless, or whether they're being VERY clever and laughing at all of us. I am beginning to think that it's the latter.

If it wasn't for the fact FCC is quicker for me to use to get to the airport anyway, I'd happily travel every single time with a Southern ticket and watch them cave in every time when I tried to escalate things further. We all know from other experiences that Southern won't actually do anyone, as it's far better to let those off and continue to rake in the extra money.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Is Gatwick Express a train company?

If not, why would the restriction have to appear on the ticket?

It only need be noted if it is a particular train company.

If it were the case that a restriction on a particular train had to be noted, some tickets, like Off-Peak, Super Off-Peak, Rovers and Rangers, would be in breach of condition 10 (some might argue that Advance fares are too).

 

[yorkie]

So if the ticket is restricted to the services of 'Southern' and the ticket says 'Rte Southern Only', in what way are they breaking condition 10?

If the ticket says Southern Only then it is valid on all trains run by the Southern Train Operating Company.

If it were the case that a restriction on a particular train had to be noted, some tickets, like Off-Peak, Super Off-Peak, Rovers and Rangers, would be in breach of condition 10 (some might argue that Advance fares are too).

Time restrictions go under the 'Validity' field, not the 'Route' field. If Southern wanted to restrict their Off Peak tickets to bar certain departures in the same style that FGW do by listing their 'fast' trains then they are permitted to do so. However they have chosen not to do that. Also they can only do that for Off Peak tickets, not Anytime tickets. An Anytime Day ticket has validity "On date shown".

 

[jon0844]

Southern simply needs to allow any tickets, but offer tickets for sale on board at a premium (if HEX charges £5, then make it £5 for the 'convenience'). Problem solved and everyone is happy.

Plenty of people going to/from an airport will find it convenient to buy on the train (plenty of people do on HEX and it's pretty easy to get your ticket before travel there).

Yet, I guess Southern gets away with the current mess because the media isn't really that interested and neither is ATOC or the DfT. It's a problem that everyone seems to be turning a blind eye to.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If the ticket says Southern Only then it is valid on all trains run by the Southern Train Operating Company.....

I'm sorry, I appear to have missed the part of condition 10 that says a Southern only ticket is valid on ALL services run by the "Southern Train Operating Company", please enlighten me.

.....Time restrictions go under the 'Validity' field, not the 'Route' field. If Southern wanted to restrict their Off Peak tickets to bar certain departures in the same style that FGW do by listing their 'fast' trains then they are permitted to do so. However they have chosen not to do that. Also they can only do that for Off Peak tickets, not Anytime tickets. An Anytime Day ticket has validity "On date shown".

So if only the train company restriction has to be shown, why do people think Southern are breaking condition 10?

 

[calc7]

I am definitely torn between thinking Southern are clueless, or whether they're being VERY clever and laughing at all of us. I am beginning to think that it's the latter.

Without a doubt. The people on the ground are clueless (through no fault of their own) but Liam Ludlow et al know exactly how to play out this one.

 

[bb21]

Okay, I'll try to simplify.

If Gatwick Express is not part of Southern, how are they breaking condition 10?

If Gatwick Express is part of Southern, how are they breaking condition 10?

In other words, how are they breaking condition 10?

Southern are not breaking Condition 10 by simply having Southern Only tickets.

They are breaking Condition 10 by not allowing Southern Only tickets to be used on Gatwick Express.

There is a small difference.