Which TOC/ route has the worst fare evasion?

Simon11 · 28 Apr 2013

I regularly travel on a late Chiltern service from a local station in London to Birmingham on Sunday evenings. On average, there is only a 20% chance of my ticket being inspected whether by member of staff or ticket barrier. There are no barriers at my first station and barriers at moor street are always wide open. Therefore the only check is the train manager onboard from Banbury, but they hardly seem to bother. Any reason why a TM doesn't check tickets at least once? I can understand TMs not wishing to check tickets on Friday/Saturday evenings due to not wishing to confront drunk people, but Sunday evening?

I also recently travelled from Birmingham NS to Euston with Virgin on a 5pm ish service. As usual, the barrier staff at Birmingham were more interested in chatting so got through not showing anything. Then I was surprised that the TM didn't make one trip on the service to check tickets. Then Euston, there was nothing. Have people noticed less ticket checks on Virgin's service, possibly as a result of TM not wishing to trek through 11 carriages?
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YorkshireBear · 28 Apr 2013

Northern is pretty bad altogether... and FTPE. Mainly due to some of the areas they pass through.

craigwilson · 28 Apr 2013

YorkshireBear said:
Northern is pretty bad altogether... and FTPE. Mainly due to some of the areas they pass through.

Although they sometimes don't help themselves. I used both of those operators last month on a return journey Manchester - Liverpool (TPE outbound, Northern return) and didn't get my ticket checked at any point. Including at any gateline.

Starmill · 28 Apr 2013

craigwilson said:
Although they sometimes don't help themselves. I used both of those operators last month on a return journey Manchester - Liverpool (TPE outbound, Northern return) and didn't get my ticket checked at any point. Including at any gateline.

Now, you see, the last time I made this journey, I was checked by G4S at Piccadilly, checked outbound by TPE and then again on arrival at Lime St. Then the return by the Northern guard and the barriers at Oxford Rd!

gnolife · 28 Apr 2013

starmill said:
Now, you see, the last time I made this journey, I was checked by G4S at Piccadilly, checked outbound by TPE and then again on arrival at Lime St. Then the return by the Northern guard and the barriers at Oxford Rd!

I think my worst one was from Manchester Airpt - Lime Street via Newton-le-Willows. I got checked at a barrier at MIA, the guard checked between MIA and MAN, there was a crew change, I got checked again between Newton and St Helens. Then an RPI boarded at Wavertree, and did a full check, before getting to Lime Street, and getting my ticket checked at the barrier there.

p123 · 28 Apr 2013

May be selfish in choosing my local ToC, but I'd have to say it's a high chance it's Scotrail on their Glasgow suburban routes. Although, I think they know it themselves, hence the installation of all the ticket gates in the city centre.

There are few - genuinly very very few - occasions when I'm on a train on the North Clyde or Argyle Lines where I don't see kids/teenagers/young adults constantly walking up and down the train avoiding the ticket inspector. Often the toilets are constantly 'engaged' with people hiding from ticket inspectors, and I also often see people running off a train, along the platform and back on at the other end to avoid ticket checks.

Furthermore, around once a fortnight (on average) I see people lying about which station they've boarded at when purchasing tickets.

I've also seen neds (Scottish 'chavs') simply say to ticket inspectors that they've not got any money, and won't be paying.

The whole situation on N. Clyde and Argyle is a disgrace at the moment with regards to fare evasion - although I'm sure my frustration is nothing compared to what the staff have to put up with. I really wish Scotrail would make all the stations on this route like LU with one entrance and exit with a ticket office and ticket gates!

Swirlz · 28 Apr 2013

I suspect Merseyrail or Arriva Trains Wales.

Merseyrail has stops incredibly close together with no onboard ticket sales, and the majority of stations are "open" without barriers. The ones with barriers can be got through by paying a £1.60 single fare.

Whilst I think fare evasion is high, the value of fares lost is probably low.

Arriva Trains Wales has a lot of unstaffed stations, on packed commuter routes.
Fare evasion is probably quite low, but the value of fares lost due to being unable to collect them in time is probably quite high.

ChilternHenry · 28 Apr 2013

Simon11 said:
I regularly travel on a late Chiltern service from a local station in London to Birmingham on Sunday evenings. On average, there is only a 20% chance of my ticket being inspected whether by member of staff or ticket barrier. There are no barriers at my first station and barriers at moor street are always wide open. Therefore the only check is the train manager onboard from Banbury, but they hardly seem to bother. Any reason why a TM doesn't check tickets at least once? I can understand TMs not wishing to check tickets on Friday/Saturday evenings due to not wishing to confront drunk people, but Sunday evening?

?

Maybe because on Sunday, less people use the train, less people are employed, and there are less services, meaning less money will be lost, or the money that it would cost to employ a person to check the tickets outweighs the total amount of the penalty fares they may issue.

However, on a seperate note, you make a valid point about the problem on the route. I know many people from my college who regularly use the train at night safe in the knowledge they probably wont get a fine. People in the Risborough area have also got the hang of being able to abuse the 'permit to travel' tickets, and there a many youths that are going to the unstaffed Monks Risborough in order to get these permits from the machines as 'extra security' against ticket inspectors. I'd obviously like to say that what i have said are just from my observations as an 18 year old from the risborough area, but of course, these generalizations will not apply to everyone, or even the majority of people, but i would say still a sizable number of devious people.

Gareth Marston · 28 Apr 2013

Swirlz said:
I suspect Merseyrail or Arriva Trains Wales.

Merseyrail has stops incredibly close together with no onboard ticket sales, and the majority of stations are "open" without barriers. The ones with barriers can be got through by paying a £1.60 single fare.

Whilst I think fare evasion is high, the value of fares lost is probably low.

Arriva Trains Wales has a lot of unstaffed stations, on packed commuter routes.
Fare evasion is probably quite low, but the value of fares lost due to being unable to collect them in time is probably quite high.

I did an all day rover on Merseyrail starting at Hooton last October and was never asked for ticket once but had to use it for barriers at central changing from Wirral to northern lines. Ticket checks on Cambrian and Marches are very good though I split ticket at Cwmbran and am never queried why I'm still aboard when I've only presented one ticket.

tbtc · 28 Apr 2013

I'd say that PTE areas (where there are subsidised fares, so less incentive for the "Guard" to collect money) with stations close to each other and rolling stock like Pacers where the "Guard" is never far from the doors because they have to work the controls...

...in which case I'd suggest Sheffield to Meadowhall - no ticket barriers, no DOO, only a five minute journey... I've very rarely had a ticket checked between these two stations - so rare that I tend to remember when it happens.

sheff1 · 28 Apr 2013

Lack of ticket checks does not automatically equate to fare evasion.

In recent weeks, I have used the 2137 from Liverpool Lime St to Sheffield on a regular basis. At Lime St the gate staff have seemingly no interest at all in whether you hold a ticket of any description. On at least 50% of occasions there has been no onboard check before Sheffield. However, when tickets have been checked - sometimes once, sometime more frequently - everyone I could see in my carriage has produuced a (presumably valid) ticket.

I was also absolutely amazed when my Merseyrail train was checked one day - again everyone in eyesight produced something which satisfied the checkers.

One section where fare evasion is rife is Doncaster - York. I know this from overhearing passengers openly discussing non-payment on the later trains returning south. I am as certain as I can be that these people are telling the truth and not just 'showing off' to their friends. Certainly on one Saturday evening train, when an inspection did take place, at least a dozen tickets were sold in the carriage I was in and the conductor never reached the end before Donny. Plenty of people had joined other carriages and a good number in my carriage decided they would quite like a change of scenery when the inspection started

Eagle · 28 Apr 2013

Coventry to Birmingham is a terrible one for fare evasion. No barriers at any station along the route, except the manual ones at New St (which are not known for their stringency and are bypassable by using the lift subway), and passengers travelling from COV to BHM in particular will usually take a long and typically busy 390, as Virgin fares on this route are cheaper than Any Permitted, which for a 20 minute journey gives a low likelihood of being caught.

Virgin really scored an own goal by removing the barriers at Coventry in 2007(?). One of the first things First WC were going to do when they took over was put them back in.

Welshman · 28 Apr 2013

Swirlz said:
I suspect Merseyrail or Arriva Trains Wales.

Arriva Trains Wales has a lot of unstaffed stations, on packed commuter routes.
Fare evasion is probably quite low, but the value of fares lost due to being unable to collect them in time is probably quite high.

Perhaps it's ATW's Valley lines in S.Wales which are the centre of your speculation.

I travel regularly on the Llandudno-Manchester services in the North, and despite the number of unbarriered stations these trains serve, I can vouch the conductor usually keeps very fit in ensuring everyone has had the pleasure of contributing towards the cost of their ride.

ANorthernGuard · 28 Apr 2013

Northern (sorry bosses) and the Hadfield line. Due to numerous factors (areas, timings between stations and a stupid Plunger at Newton for Hyde) makes life as a guard hard work on that route and practically impossible after 9pm (self preservation time).

12CSVT · 28 Apr 2013

Ticket checks on FCC overnight services are about as rare as hens teeth. And this is when ticket offices are closed and gatelines are open.

class303 · 28 Apr 2013

As mentioned above, Glasgow area has to be up there. It's one thing gating a "ring of steel" around Glasgow city centre but all the many intermediate stations on the many lines out of Glasgow (inverclyde, ayrshire etc) are rife with it. May not be practical to install barriers but Penalty Fares should be in operation as there is zero incentive to buy a ticket before boarding currently (ticket inspectors almost never charge the full single rate from what i've heard).

Also the suburban greater Anglia network out of Liverpool street. There are frequently HOARDS of people who just walk past the oyster readers on the intermediate stations. I've never seen ticket checks on stations like Walthamstow central, Bethnal green or Hackney downs. In nearly 1 year travelling the line daily I've encountered RPIs once on a train ( they got on at bethnal green, next stop Liverpool street so no fare evaders by this point, pointless) & once at Clapton. Bethnal green, Hackney downs and Walthamstow central really need gated and i assume same situation on the other lines out of Liverpool Street.

edwin_m · 28 Apr 2013

Eagle said:
passengers travelling from COV to BHM in particular will usually take a long and typically busy 390, as Virgin fares on this route are cheaper than Any Permitted, which for a 20 minute journey gives a low likelihood of being caught.

I can understand why evaders would choose a long train that makes fewer stops, but I can't see why the operator offering cheaper tickets would be of any relevance to them!

Oswyntail · 28 Apr 2013

sheff1 said:
Lack of ticket checks does not automatically equate to fare evasion.....

I would go further, and say the question posed is unanswerable by definition. The fares have not been collected, therefore there is no record of them. Unless, of course, there is an accurate count of passenger numbers associated with known journeys, which is compared with fares taken. Even guards on supposedly badly hit routes are guessing. It is always easier to blame these mysterious "fare dodgers" for poor returns than find a tangible answer.
I wonder if there are any published figures covering revenue changes when improvements such as gating or RPI checks are instituted.

Eagle · 28 Apr 2013

edwin_m said:
I can understand why evaders would choose a long train that makes fewer stops, but I can't see why the operator offering cheaper tickets would be of any relevance to them!

I was explaining why the trains were particularly busy (thus further hindering any ticket checks).

Darren R · 28 Apr 2013

In my experience, in terms of deliberate fare evasion Northern has to be one of the worst. For the most part I find Northern guards are very good and are canny enough, but the stations are too close for even the canniest guard. People are aware of this and frequently catch the train from my local station for the seven minute ride to the next big town openly discussing their chances of a free ride. Annoying for those of us who are honest enough to go out of our way to buy a ticket even when the guard has been too busy.

transmanche · 29 Apr 2013

Oswyntail said:
I would go further, and say the question posed is unanswerable by definition. The fares have not been collected, therefore there is no record of them.

One exception to that is DLR, which has an automated passenger counting system to capture the number of passengers using each station. There's a contractual target to keep ticketless travel below 3% across the system, with no single station exceeding 6%. (In 2011 the level of ticketless travel on DLR was running at 1%.)

Stonesourscotty · 29 Apr 2013

What about lines that dont get Ticket conductors? and then we all get to put up with the g4s idiots at Victoria. ive not seen a single ticket Conductor on a Kirkby-Victoria train this year i have obviously seen conductors but not one has sold me a ticket on the train since 24/12/12 which was the last day i bought a ticket on that line appalling from Northern. Yet oddly ive been on a Victoria-Wallgate Stopper that had checked tickets between Victoria and Central which is kudos to the conductor.

furlong · 29 Apr 2013

ChilternHenry said:
People in the Risborough area have also got the hang of being able to abuse the 'permit to travel' tickets, and there a many youths that are going to the unstaffed Monks Risborough in order to get these permits from the machines as 'extra security' against ticket inspectors.

But wasn't the idea that once fare dodgers began to co-operate with the system and pay their 5p insurance premium, in return management would gain far better insight into when and where and how often people travel without paying the correct fare?

Wolfie · 29 Apr 2013

class303 said:
Also the suburban greater Anglia network out of Liverpool street. There are frequently HOARDS of people who just walk past the oyster readers on the intermediate stations. I've never seen ticket checks on stations like Walthamstow central, Bethnal green or Hackney downs. In nearly 1 year travelling the line daily I've encountered RPIs once on a train ( they got on at bethnal green, next stop Liverpool street so no fare evaders by this point, pointless) & once at Clapton. Bethnal green, Hackney downs and Walthamstow central really need gated and i assume same situation on the other lines out of Liverpool Street.

That does assume that season tickets/travelcards are all on Oyster. Mine for one is paper and as such I have zero need to touch an Oyster reader at an intermediate station.....

ChilternHenry · 29 Apr 2013

furlong said:
But wasn't the idea that once fare dodgers began to co-operate with the system and pay their 5p insurance premium, in return management would gain far better insight into when and where and how often people travel without paying the correct fare?

Its all very good knowing that, but acting on that is another thing. It still may not be cost effective to put ticket inspectors on those trains. AS a seperate point, I think it should be remembered that a lot of fare evasion happens against the general flow of people, that is to say, fare evaders look for quiet trains as much as busy trains. People often fare evade because they feel they can get away with it: either the trains are so packed the ticket collecter wont be able to get to them in time OR so few people on the train fare evaders gamble no one will bother checking tickets.

trainophile · 29 Apr 2013

Gareth Marston said:
I did an all day rover on Merseyrail starting at Hooton last October and was never asked for ticket once but had to use it for barriers at central changing from Wirral to northern lines. Ticket checks on Cambrian and Marches are very good though I split ticket at Cwmbran and am never queried why I'm still aboard when I've only presented one ticket.

Really? No barriers at Central between Wirral and Northern line platforms now, just a succession of escalators.

Gareth Marston · 29 Apr 2013

trainophile said:
Really? No barriers at Central between Wirral and Northern line platforms now, just a succession of escalators.

sticks in memory as the barriers wouldn't accept my rover ticket and i had to show barrier staff after a refusal.The next time I went though I went straight for member of staff who started clucking at me about going through barrier first!

trainophile · 29 Apr 2013

Gareth Marston said:
sticks in memory as the barriers wouldn't accept my rover ticket and i had to show barrier staff after a refusal.The next time I went though I went straight for member of staff who started clucking at me about going through barrier first!

Hmm, still doesn't tie in with my experience (as recently as yesterday!). Wonder if the layout was different before last year's major station refurb - I wasn't so familiar with Central then.

You do mean "northern lines" as in Southport/Ormskirk/Hunts Cross/Ellesmere Port don't you? Just wondering if you are thinking of Lime Street rather than Central, although this doesn't connect to the aforementioned "northern lines" that I'm talking about.

Flamingo · 29 Apr 2013

Oswyntail said:
I would go further, and say the question posed is unanswerable by definition. The fares have not been collected, therefore there is no record of them. Unless, of course, there is an accurate count of passenger numbers associated with known journeys, which is compared with fares taken. Even guards on supposedly badly hit routes are guessing. It is always easier to blame these mysterious "fare dodgers" for poor returns than find a tangible answer.
I wonder if there are any published figures covering revenue changes when improvements such as gating or RPI checks are instituted.

Extrapolate what you like from these figures for Grangetown station in Cardiff, closest to Cdf Central, before and after the majority of mainline stations in South Wales became barriered, as opposed to just Cardiff itself.
2004/05 *0.601 million
2005/06 0.326 million
2006/07 0.115 million

Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grangetown_railway_station

A drop of nearly half a million ticket sales over a two year period with no demographic changes to the area indicates a lot of short-travel tickets no longer being purchased!

BrownE · 29 Apr 2013

I'd say Guildford Station is quite bad:

Michael Keeber (Crime said:
We do not sell platform tickets (sic - Didcot) as these have been abused by persons in the past, and, as an example, Guildford looses 1000 passes a week that allow persons to cross the station

So I'd say that means Guildford have 1000 people evading a fare per week, that's not a small number for one station.

Alternatively, the staff are really clumsy or the figure was rounded up (I have no evidence of either - obviously)

Which TOC/ route has the worst fare evasion?

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