Trains run by at least two operators

northern156 · 23 Aug 2013

Hi all
I was curious to know. Are there many train services in the UK that are ran by more than one TOC? And what/whose rolling stock is used on these services? By this I mean individual trains where staff are changed mid-journey; not whole routes which are shared.

The most prominent one I can think of is one that runs past my house on the Tyne Valley every day - Glasgow Central to Newcastle (via Kilmarnock, Dumfries and Carlisle) services. The stock used is ScotRail Class 156s throughout and ScotRail have a guard and conductor who run the train to Carlisle who then swap to a Northern Rail guard and conductor over to Newcastle. Vice versa for going west/northbound too.

Just had a small nose around on the new Realtime Trains (which now actually shows trains as having more than one TOC) and I've seen Sevenoaks to Bedford trains which are ran by Southeastern from Sevenoaks to London Bridge and FCC from London Bridge to Bedford. What trains are used on this service normally?

Sean

RailUK Forums

142094 · 23 Aug 2013

TPE crews do Barton on Humber to Cleethorpes services with Northern stock (still a Northern service).

island · 23 Aug 2013

The Sevenoaks to Bedford trains are necessarily 319s due to the requirement to change from third rail to overhead power.

SteamPower · 23 Aug 2013

Why would such a situation occur? As a one off for a charter or a route not usually passed over I can understand, but a daily service, why?

northern156 · 23 Aug 2013

SteamPower said:
Why would such a situation occur? As a one off for a charter or a route not usually passed over I can understand, but a daily service, why?

Perhaps because it would cost too much/take too much time to increase route knowledge for drivers and guards possibly?

IanXC · 23 Aug 2013

142094 said:
TPE crews do Barton on Humber to Cleethorpes services with Northern stock (still a Northern service).

Although there's no changeover of crews from different TOCs in that example.

I'd need to check the diagrams properly but I'd be surprised if there wasn't an example of Northern and TPE crew working the same service on the Yorkshire Coast Line. TPE work some Scarborough to Hull Northern services, plus some in fill Hull to Beverley, so I'd be surprised if none of these services continued west of Hull. These are all 158s.

jopsuk · 23 Aug 2013

island said:
The Sevenoaks to Bedford trains are necessarily 319s due to the requirement to change from third rail to overhead power.

Um, FCC also have a fleet of dual voltage 377s that can be used for these services.

The joint FCC/Southeastern services are all run using FCC stock- Southeastern do have Dual Voltage stock though, in the shape of 30 of their 375s and also the high speed 395s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

SteamPower said:
Why would such a situation occur? As a one off for a charter or a route not usually passed over I can understand, but a daily service, why?

to provide a through service (useful for passengers- not necessarily for end-to-end) without crews having to work too far from their home depot.

Anvil1984 · 23 Aug 2013

northern156 said:
Hi all
I was curious to know. Are there many train services in the UK that are ran by more than one TOC? And what/whose rolling stock is used on these services? By this I mean individual trains where staff are changed mid-journey; not whole routes which are shared.

The most prominent one I can think of is one that runs past my house on the Tyne Valley every day - Glasgow Central to Newcastle (via Kilmarnock, Dumfries and Carlisle) services. The stock used is ScotRail Class 156s throughout and ScotRail have a guard and conductor who run the train to Carlisle who then swap to a Northern Rail guard and conductor over to Newcastle. Vice versa for going west/northbound too.

Just had a small nose around on the new Realtime Trains (which now actually shows trains as having more than one TOC) and I've seen Sevenoaks to Bedford trains which are ran by Southeastern from Sevenoaks to London Bridge and FCC from London Bridge to Bedford. What trains are used on this service normally?

Sean

Just on the Glasgow - Newcastle example there is a service which uses a Northern 156 from Dumfries to Newcastle. Scotrail staff to Carlisle and Northern crew to Newcastle

starrymarkb · 23 Aug 2013

The Waterloo to Penzance used to change operator at Exeter St Davids with an FGW crew taking it west of Exeter. I believe it used to require a 158 after an incident involving a 159 and it was found that FGW crews didn't have the paperwork to crew a 159. :roll:

142094 · 23 Aug 2013

SteamPower said:
Why would such a situation occur? As a one off for a charter or a route not usually passed over I can understand, but a daily service, why?

The Northern - Scotrail service has been around for a good few years, certainly I remember it when Arriva Trains Northern/Northern Spirit ran what is now the Northern franchise and when Nat Ex had Scotrail. There used to be a service to/from Stranraer to Newcastle as well, which provided a good link to Northern Ireland.

IIRC there are one or two early morning services between Carlisle and Dumfries which use Northern 156s, so there is mutual benefit for both Northern and Scotrail in this case.

AlexS · 23 Aug 2013

I've caught a Sheffield to Scarborough via Hull service before that was a Northern guard from Sheffield to Hull, then a TPE guard to Scarborough.

swt_passenger · 23 Aug 2013

We need to be careful here, because sub contracting another operators train crew for operational convenience does not generally make a service a 'joint operation'. An example such as SN crewing an FGW service to Gatwick still shows up in timetables as an FGW service.

For a long time after the western area franchise re-organisation you regularly saw ATW staff on the Portsmouth Harbour - Cardiff service, but it was always considered to be operated by FGW.

thelongestroad · 23 Aug 2013

Another FGW example would be Arriva Trains Wales drivers operating selected FGW services between Bristol and Cardiff.

jnjkerbin · 23 Aug 2013

jopsuk said:
Um, FCC also have a fleet of dual voltage 377s that can be used for these services.

However, in practice, none of the Sevenoaks - Thameslink trains use 377s, although the peak time services to/from Ashford and Rochester do.

Tomonthetrain · 23 Aug 2013

Back when central trains were existing, didn't the Birmingham to London service become a Silverlink service at Northampton

Anvil1984 · 23 Aug 2013

142094 said:
The Northern - Scotrail service has been around for a good few years, certainly I remember it when Arriva Trains Northern/Northern Spirit ran what is now the Northern franchise and when Nat Ex had Scotrail. There used to be a service to/from Stranraer to Newcastle as well, which provided a good link to Northern Ireland.

IIRC there are one or two early morning services between Carlisle and Dumfries which use Northern 156s, so there is mutual benefit for both Northern and Scotrail in this case.

The Glasgow / Stranraer services pre-date privatisation as I remember reading about them as a young un in one of my books. Services used to be from Glasgow / Girvan / Stranraer to / from Newcastle and IIRC started when the Stranraer to Euston services were axed in about 1988.

These services have seen an array of liveries in that time starting with the SPT Black and Orange which was a familiar sight then the Carmine and Cream in mid to late 90s to recently. However just like at every other franchise it wasn't unfamiliar to see a "foreign" unit work the service so Nat Ex Scotrail swoosh units were seen, then First "Barbies" and now its boring as they all have the same livery

As for the latter paragraph as already pointed out there is a service which is joint operated using a Northern unit but both crews which is the 082x service from Carlisle to Newcastle (Starts at Dumfries but forgot what time)

Carlisle · 23 Aug 2013

Anvil1984 said:
Just on the Glasgow - Newcastle example there is a service which uses a Northern 156 from Dumfries to Newcastle. Scotrail staff to Carlisle and Northern crew to Newcastle

i think the Anglo Scottish services described in this thread are legacy workings continued from the old BR timetable, i don't think they would operate the way they do if we were starting from scratch with the present railway structure

quarella · 23 Aug 2013

I am sure there was a hangover from BR when I started in 1995. Train Operating Units had been created but not sold off. I think it was the last Bristol Temple Meads to Birmingham Service. South Wales and West as far as Gloucester then turned into a Central Trains service. It wasn't long before it became two separate services.

Cherry_Picker · 23 Aug 2013

Chiltern & London Midland (and also when LM were Central Trains) have worked services which are in each others franchise commitments over the years.

I'm fairly sure that 2U93, the 23:30 stopping service from Birmingham Snow Hill to Banbury is or was a service which London Midland are commited to provide between Birmingham and Leamington Spa. I've not checked in a long time but it might still be listed as LM train in their printed timetables. It certainly used to be when it ran at 23:15.

tractakid · 23 Aug 2013

Trainbasher said:
Back when central trains were existing, didn't the Birmingham to London service become a Silverlink service at Northampton

This might explain why, long ago, I recall getting off a terminating service at Northampton and then being shocked to get back on the same train! I was young and my memory hazy so couldn't work out what was causing that to be the case.

MK Tom · 24 Aug 2013

tractakid said:
This might explain why, long ago, I recall getting off a terminating service at Northampton and then being shocked to get back on the same train! I was young and my memory hazy so couldn't work out what was causing that to be the case.

That still happens all the time.

I never understood what the point was of taking Northampton-Birmingham out of the Silverlink franchise, or why all the Canley and so on stops were added into the previously useful Birmingham NSE services.

Carlisle · 24 Aug 2013

MK Tom said:
That still happens all the time.

I never understood what the point was of taking Northampton-Birmingham out of the Silverlink franchise, or why all the Canley and so on stops were added into the previously useful Birmingham NSE services.

Was that anything to do with the VHF timetable that came in about 2009 i think when a lot of the slower services on the southern section of the WCML were changed to make way for a lot more inter city services

hairyhandedfool · 24 Aug 2013

It was years before that, it started before the 350s arrived.

Carlisle · 24 Aug 2013

hairyhandedfool said:
It was years before that, it started before the 350s arrived.

Ok understand,so maybe part of the earlier series of cutbacks on the WCML due to its modernisation around 03 that also saw the likes of stone and Norton bridge loose their services

northern156 · 24 Aug 2013

Anvil1984 said:
As for the latter paragraph as already pointed out there is a service which is joint operated using a Northern unit but both crews which is the 082x service from Carlisle to Newcastle (Starts at Dumfries but forgot what time)

There's two ex-Dumfries Northern Rail services each Mon-Fri morning: 2N08 0617 and 2N12 0745.
On Saturdays it is only the one - 2N08 0617 DMF-NCL.

I remember the SPT Carmine & Cream Class 156s passing once every so often on their way to Stranraer... One of the best liveries carried by those trains in my opinion.

Tomnick · 24 Aug 2013

I'd always thought that Northern crews at Carlisle signed as far as Dumfries and worked those two right through?

MK Tom · 24 Aug 2013

Carlisle said:
Ok understand,so maybe part of the earlier series of cutbacks on the WCML due to its modernisation around 03 that also saw the likes of stone and Norton bridge loose their services

I assumed it was to do with improving the service to Berkswell, Lea Hall and so on. I don't know if the Silverlink Euston-Birmingham services weren't getting much trans-Northampton traffic. The LM ones do now and they're far less convenient than the BHM-International-Cov Silverlink ones were.

mister-sparky · 24 Aug 2013

northern156 said:
Just had a small nose around on the new Realtime Trains (which now actually shows trains as having more than one TOC) and I've seen Sevenoaks to Bedford trains which are ran by Southeastern from Sevenoaks to London Bridge and FCC from London Bridge to Bedford. What trains are used on this service normally?
Sean

The FCC/Southeastern services from Sevenoaks don't serve London Bridge. They run via the Catford Loop to Blackfriars, crew change there, and terminate at Kentish Town. It's only in the peaks that some routes from Southeastern run through to Bedford.

12CSVT · 25 Aug 2013

jopsuk said:
Um, FCC also have a fleet of dual voltage 377s that can be used for these services.

The joint FCC/Southeastern services are all run using FCC stock- Southeastern do have Dual Voltage stock though, in the shape of 30 of their 375s and also the high speed 395s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

to provide a through service (useful for passengers- not necessarily for end-to-end) without crews having to work too far from their home depot.

When FCC / Southeastern services first started the Ashford services were operated by FCC north of Blackfriars, by Southeastern south of Blackfriars, using 377/2 units hired from Southern.

westcoaster · 25 Aug 2013

mister-sparky said:
The FCC/Southeastern services from Sevenoaks don't serve London Bridge. They run via the Catford Loop to Blackfriars, crew change there, and terminate at Kentish Town. It's only in the peaks that some routes from Southeastern run through to Bedford.

Not all crew changes happen at blackfriars, southeastern drivers sign all the way to Bedford and FCC drivers sign all the way to Orpington and Sevenoaks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

12CSVT said:
When FCC / Southeastern services first started the Ashford services were operated by FCC north of Blackfriars, by Southeastern south of Blackfriars, using 377/2 units hired from Southern.

377/2's have never made it to ashford, only /5's. the /2's have a set diagram and can not be moved of it, they have to stay as a 12 car and are not interchangeable with /5's.

Trains run by at least two operators

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