Northern Rail policy on holding last connections

Crossover · 13 Oct 2013

I was wondering what Northern's (primarily) policy was on holding last connections?

Yesterday, myself and starmill were on the 22:00 arrival at Huddersfield from the Penistone Line, which got delayed due to a mechanical fault with an actual arrival of 22:21. I needed to get the 22:20 local stopper to Leeds via Dewsbury, to Mirfield, and this was the last connection of the night to there.

Speaking to the guard on the Penistone Line service, he called control and got the connection held for 5 minutes (though it then got pathed behind the Leeds via Bradford stopper)

Arriving at the 22:20, the guard wasn't overly chuffed and gave us chapter on verse of how "Northern never hold connections" and haven;t done in all the 8 years he had been working for them. He even went to the extent of announcing over the PA that the train was "being held for some passengers from the late running Sheffield, but I don't know why as we don't usually hold connections"

Kudos to Northern for taking the sensible approach and thanks to the guard of the Penistone line service for putting the steps in place, but I wondered whether the guard on the Leeds all shacks had a point or if he was just being bitter about being 3 minutes later home than he otherwise would have been and if Northern would minorly delay last connections?

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CalderRail · 13 Oct 2013

If they hadn't delayed the service, they'd have had to pay for a taxi home for you.

I'm betting Northern Rail's policy on this is "make a profit".

YorkshireBear · 13 Oct 2013

Seems unproffesional from the guard to be honest and quite bitter.

Eagle · 13 Oct 2013

Northern will sometimes even hold connections from other TOCs. When I recently travelled on the 19.00 King's Cross to Edinburgh, which was delayed by about 20 minutes due to an unscheduled stop at Peterborough (so that a passenger could be arrested), the guard of that service managed to get the 21.11 York to Leeds via Harrogate held for a few minutes because there were a few passengers heading for that train.

Starmill · 13 Oct 2013

It was quite a thing walking through the coach after having had the guard announce that we were "for some reason and I'm not sure why" being held to wait for a some passengers from a late running service from Sheffield. I did say to him "Well you know this is the last train home to Mirfield." and even this was met with "But they NEVER hold connections!" Frankly I'm not sure why he got so agitated about the whole thing. It made complete sense to put the Bradford stopper out first because we were calling at Deighton and it wasn't, and those 6 delay minutes should have been cheaper for Northern than a taxi from Huddersfield to Mirfield - and an hours delay for me to get back to Leeds - having to wait for the 23:15 TPE no less! No emotion at all on learning that we did in fact run across Huddersfield station - about as far as it was possible to have to run too, just "Well we've lost our slot now". When we arrived too it was actually the guard of the Bradford service who directed us to the correct train, as our guard had already shut the doors and was talking to the driver down the front. I'd be very interested to learn how the signaller gets informed of the late departure in this case. I'm assuming that our signal went off because our guard had locked up (we got in only through the local door) but then was put back on again because the Bradford train left! doesn't the signaller need to speak to the driver to do that? Or did our guard lock the doors when the signal wasn't off. All in all seems a tad iffy. Is it?

I also was very pleasantly surprised with the guard on the Penistone line train. Once we helped him work out where Mirfield actually was he proved most helpful. Well done to him, well done to Northern control for seeing the bigger picture, unlike somebody.

Qwerty133 · 13 Oct 2013

Think the guard may be better suited to EMT who never hold connections under any circumstances even when 30 seconds would be long enough and it's the second time in 4 days that they will be causing passengers inconvenience.
(for info I'm on about the 06:52 XC from Birmingham into the 07:57 to Sheffield at leicester, last week)

because of the number of different trains and operators running along our route, we don't generally hold connections

causton · 13 Oct 2013

I would assume that the guard of your train really wanted to get home on time that night, and so to avoid any door problems closed the doors, leaving just a local door open for any late running (literally!

) passengers...! As I am sure as well that a signal cannot be replaced without informing/being informed by the driver themselves, unless it's an emergency, which holding a connection isn't :P

Crossover · 14 Oct 2013

We approached the Penistone train guard around Honley IIRC...around 5 stops from HUD anyway, so loads of time to sort things. I suspect in this case the signaller would know in advance and not give us the route in the first place

Thankfully after legging it from platform 2 to 4, at least we had Northerns finest of a double 158, not a Pacer!

CalderRail · 14 Oct 2013

The fact that a 158 stinkbucket is Northern Rails 'finest' says a lot, really.

But yes, at least their control people (and the guard on your first train) did their job right.

Xenophon PCDGS · 14 Oct 2013

CalderRail said:
The fact that a 158 stinkbucket is Northern Rails 'finest' says a lot, really.

I thought that it was the Class 142 Pacers held that title, as they are often referred to as "Newton Heath's finest"...

johntea · 14 Oct 2013

Ironically, I was planning to catch that same 22:20 service yesterday! (Luckily I caught the slightly delayed 22:16 TPE instead!).

Considering the plan was to get back to Leeds and hot foot it to the bus station for the 23:10 bus service home I would have probably been cursing had the train not left on time. Funny how delays can affect people in different ways

34D · 14 Oct 2013

your train departed seven minutes late, and arrived Leeds 3 mins late.

Anyone who was hoping to catch the 22:56 from Leeds to Micklefield & York or Keighley/Skipton would have been disappointed, ditto those planning to catch buses at 11pm ish.

Unlike yourself, for those people it would have been bad luck, whereas you had entitlement to a taxi.

Personally it wouldn't surprise me if someone got in trouble for this.

jopsuk · 14 Oct 2013

34D makes a good point- what may be the last connection for you may in turn have "last connections" from itself (and not just trains).

AlexS · 14 Oct 2013

Anyone silly enough to risk a 1 minute connection to a train or even 5 minute connection to a bus at that time of night deserves no sympathy, whereas the OP allowed plenty of time so it seems entirely reasonable to take the short delay.

cuccir · 14 Oct 2013

I've benefitted from Northern holding a connection to Doncaster at Sheffield, following a delayed train from the Hope Valley Line. This was the last connection for multiple destinations to the north, including ours! So it's something that's done.

34D said:
your train departed seven minutes late, and arrived Leeds 3 mins late.

Anyone who was hoping to catch the 22:56 from Leeds to Micklefield & York or Keighley/Skipton would have been disappointed, ditto those planning to catch buses at 11pm ish.

Unlike yourself, for those people it would have been bad luck, whereas you had entitlement to a taxi.

Personally it wouldn't surprise me if someone got in trouble for this.

But that's not a valid connection, as the Penistone train was only due in at 22:55. The arrival time was three minutes late - if that's enough for you to not get the last bus, then I'd also argue that you've not left enough time or at least, could reasonably expect to be delayed by that amount and miss the bus and (therefore) hopefully have an alternative plan. But this point does indicate why trains cannot be held for very long late at night!

Essexman · 14 Oct 2013

CalderRail said:
If they hadn't delayed the service, they'd have had to pay for a taxi home for you.

I'm betting Northern Rail's policy on this is "make a profit".

Indeeed.
In my (limited) experience Northern are more likely to hold a connection if they will have to pay for the taxis ' compensation, than if they can pass this on to someone else.

yorksrob · 14 Oct 2013

Having last connections at such ridiculously early times doesn‘t help the situation. Supposing you have a slightly unreliable five minute connection at around 22:00, but the train connecting into it is hourly, so to be on the safe side, you have to get the preceeding train there at 21:00. Your journey there might take an hour, so you have to leave at 20:00. Hardly the thriving evening economy we‘re told is supposed to exist.

Very poor behaviour from the Leeds guard IMO.

TUC · 14 Oct 2013

Crossover said:
I was wondering what Northern's (primarily) policy was on holding last connections?

Yesterday, myself and starmill were on the 22:00 arrival at Huddersfield from the Penistone Line, which got delayed due to a mechanical fault with an actual arrival of 22:21. I needed to get the 22:20 local stopper to Leeds via Dewsbury, to Mirfield, and this was the last connection of the night to there.

Speaking to the guard on the Penistone Line service, he called control and got the connection held for 5 minutes (though it then got pathed behind the Leeds via Bradford stopper)

Arriving at the 22:20, the guard wasn't overly chuffed and gave us chapter on verse of how "Northern never hold connections" and haven;t done in all the 8 years he had been working for them. He even went to the extent of announcing over the PA that the train was "being held for some passengers from the late running Sheffield, but I don't know why as we don't usually hold connections"

Kudos to Northern for taking the sensible approach and thanks to the guard of the Penistone line service for putting the steps in place, but I wondered whether the guard on the Leeds all shacks had a point or if he was just being bitter about being 3 minutes later home than he otherwise would have been and if Northern would minorly delay last connections?

Why would the guard on the 2220 take up the issue with you? If he had a problem with the decision, surely its for him to take up with control or with the other guard. Taking it up with passengers is unprofessional

34D · 14 Oct 2013

cuccir said:
I've benefitted from Northern holding a connection to Doncaster at Sheffield, following a delayed train from the Hope Valley Line. This was the last connection for multiple destinations to the north, including ours! So it's something that's done.

But that's not a valid connection, as the Penistone train was only due in at 22:55. The arrival time was three minutes late - if that's enough for you to not get the last bus, then I'd also argue that you've not left enough time or at least, could reasonably expect to be delayed by that amount and miss the bus and (therefore) hopefully have an alternative plan. But this point does indicate why trains cannot be held for very long late at night!

Please re-read my original post. I said "Unlike yourself, for those people it would have been bad luck, whereas you had entitlement to a taxi."

Ie I was referring to people who didn't have a valid connection but were relying on that train being on time or early.

Had I missed my last bus (and had to fork out for a taxi) I would not be at all comforted by the fact that at least two people from Mirfield were tucked up in bed only 6 minutes late.

breadfan · 14 Oct 2013

Some years ago, maybe 6, I left a gig at Manchester Academy early in order to make the last Preston train from Oxford Road (TPE). We caught the train fine but when we got to Bolton we were held for a considerable time to await a connection from Manchester Victoria (Northern) which was prevented from departing Victoria due to Take That (or someone like that) having come on stage late, so their show was finishing late.

All very heart-warming, making sure that a young audience got home but if I was at that gig with a kid and needing to get the last train I would have considered missing some of the show hard luck and made sure we left the gig in plenty of time to catch the train.

hairyhandedfool · 14 Oct 2013

I've been struggling to find the connections policy on the intranet at work and thus far failed, but if memory serves the policy said something along the lines of a train will only be held for 5 minutes and only if it has no affect on other services, 10 minutes may be allowed in exceptional circumstances. My experience is that Northern control believe a 5 minute delay on pretty much any service will affect another service.

cuccir · 14 Oct 2013

34D said:
Had I missed my last bus (and had to fork out for a taxi) I would not be at all comforted by the fact that at least two people from Mirfield were tucked up in bed only 6 minutes late.

Oh I know that you pointed it out; but if people are feeling unhappy because they missed their 5 minute bus or rail connection, then more fool them for expecting to be able to make it - there's a whole myriad of reasons the service could be delayed.

34D · 14 Oct 2013

cuccir said:
Oh I know that you pointed it out; but if people are feeling unhappy because they missed their 5 minute bus or rail connection, then more fool them for expecting to be able to make it - there's a whole myriad of reasons the service could be delayed.

Sometimes one has no choice but to 'try'. We can't all plan our lives with lots of padding. But to be told that you have to pay a £15 taxi fare just so that two people from Mirfield can get home is basically a kick in the teeth.

cuccir · 14 Oct 2013

34D said:
Sometimes one has no choice but to 'try'. We can't all plan our lives with lots of padding. But to be told that you have to pay a £15 taxi fare just so that two people from Mirfield can get home is basically a kick in the teeth.

If someone can't accept that sometimes they'll be put out so that others can have an easier life, then frankly they're a 'see you next Tuesday'.
--
Edit - that post is a bit blunt. The point that I was wanting to make is that in either situation, someone is going to be let down by the service and forced to arrive home late. It seems reasonable to me that it's the people who left 20 minutes for the connection who receive the break here, rather than the ones who didn't. It's harsh but those of us who've lived long parts of our life without cars have to learn to deal with these realities: either pull out of whatever it was that was keeping you elsewhere late, or accept that you may be delayed en route.

Dunc108 · 14 Oct 2013

CalderRail said:
The fact that a 158 stinkbucket is Northern Rails 'finest' says a lot, really.

But yes, at least their control people (and the guard on your first train) did their job right.

158 Stinkbucket? Don't tell me 150s have better toilets than a 158?! :lol:

Lampshade · 14 Oct 2013

34D said:
your train departed seven minutes late, and arrived Leeds 3 mins late.

Anyone who was hoping to catch the 22:56 from Leeds to Micklefield & York or Keighley/Skipton would have been disappointed...

I don't know what the minimum connection time at Leeds is but I'd wager it's more than 3 minutes.

theblackwatch · 14 Oct 2013

34D said:
your train departed seven minutes late, and arrived Leeds 3 mins late.

Anyone who was hoping to catch the 22:56 from Leeds to Micklefield & York or Keighley/Skipton would have been disappointed, ditto those planning to catch buses at 11pm ish.

Unlike yourself, for those people it would have been bad luck, whereas you had entitlement to a taxi.

Personally it wouldn't surprise me if someone got in trouble for this.

So you think somebody (who?) may have got into trouble because a passenger at Leeds may have missed being able to get between two trains which weren't supposed to connect?

Starmill · 14 Oct 2013

34D said:
Sometimes one has no choice but to 'try'. We can't all plan our lives with lots of padding. But to be told that you have to pay a £15 taxi fare just so that two people from Mirfield can get home is basically a kick in the teeth.

Everyone needs to get home. Why should someone from Mirfield have less right to do so than someone from Micklefield? There's no way to distinguish other than by who has followed the 'rules' and who hasn't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Lampshade said:
I don't know what the minimum connection time at Leeds is but I'd wager it's more than 3 minutes.

10, isn't it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

hairyhandedfool said:
I've been struggling to find the connections policy on the intranet at work and thus far failed, but if memory serves the policy said something along the lines of a train will only be held for 5 minutes and only if it has no affect on other services, 10 minutes may be allowed in exceptional circumstances. My experience is that Northern control believe a 5 minute delay on pretty much any service will affect another service.

Right or wrong as the attitude is, they'd be broadly right in that wouldn't they? Crossover found an ECS move that was possibly delayed by two minutes as a result of our being 7 down at Mirfield.

The first guard did relay the info that it was a specified "5 minute hold" rather than a hold until we were onboard. Still that throws up some interesting questions. 5 minutes and we were not there, the train leaves without us (notwithstanding the signalling), but what if one of us had had the reduced mobility that meant we would need to wait for both lifts down and up in the subway? Then Northern would have delayed the train and buggered up various paths, and still had two unaccounted for passengers. If we made up time somehow and were on the Leeds train only one or two minutes after booked departure, would we have gone immediately then? Assuming the guard recognised us, he was so cross we weren't quite sure if he'd put the two and two together (asked to hold for late connection, two stragglers turn up) when he went to make that PA, it was as if we weren't both right outside his cab door listening to him diss us to the rest of the passengers!

I digress, if there's nothing official on it, perhaps they were more inclined because it was the last connection back to Mirfield. Even with a double back at Dewsbury it wouldn't be possible to get back there from Huddersfield once the 22:20 had departed.

I think the main point that needs a bit more emphasis here is that the fault lies squarely on Northern for their crappy pacer breaking down. Circumstances were exacerbated, for example the train from Huddersfield entering the single line first so we had to wait at Pensitone for 5 minutes for it to clear (or so the driver said and it looked like that was what happened) despite already being 20 minutes late. It's a lesson in how easy it is for delays to ripple out - there will probably be other effects we haven't identified.

Deerfold · 14 Oct 2013

34D said:
your train departed seven minutes late, and arrived Leeds 3 mins late.

Anyone who was hoping to catch the 22:56 from Leeds to Micklefield & York or Keighley/Skipton would have been disappointed, ditto those planning to catch buses at 11pm ish.

Not sure how anyone would get from platform 15 to platform 1-6 (usually 2) for the Skipton train in 1 minute!

I regularly do connections at Leeds that are below the recommended minimum and save myself up to half an hour. But I've never planned for one for the last train. Here anyone going to Keighley or Skipton would get the 2318 - as they most likely would have anyway. Those for Micklefield would have been stuffed - but would have been banking on a 1 minute connection! Those for York would have been delayed by 33 minutes.

YorkshireBear · 14 Oct 2013

Leeds i regularly make two minute connections between Airedale and Harrogate line trains but this is not planned for it is to save myself 30-60 minutes. Never have i relied on on time running or early running for a late night train. You are just asking for trouble.

Northern Rail policy on holding last connections

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