Lancaster to Carlisle Engineering Works

Whistler40145 · 4 Jan 2014

I have noticed that the WCML between Lancaster & Carlisle is closed after 12pm on Saturdays for Engineering Works.

How many weekends is the line closed?

Also, why isn't Virgin sending Voyagers via the Settle & Carlisle line?

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TOCDriver · 4 Jan 2014

TimSYoung40145 said:
I have noticed that the WCML between Lancaster & Carlisle is closed after 12pm on Saturdays for Engineering Works.

How many weekends is the line closed?

Also, why isn't Virgin sending Voyagers via the Settle & Carlisle line?

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6 weekends in total. And Virgin Drivers do not sign Settle. Why would they have to? The bus replacement service is well organised if truth be told, and only adds on another 1.5 hours to the total journey (having experienced it myself). Why would you send a Voyager towards Leeds for a WCML diversion?

MidnightFlyer · 4 Jan 2014

I'm 99% certain some Virgin drivers sign via Preston-Clitheroe-Settle-Carlisle. Can't remember which depot / grade but one somewhere certainly does.

TOCDriver · 4 Jan 2014

MattE2010 said:
I'm 99% certain some Virgin drivers sign via Preston-Clitheroe-Settle-Carlisle. Can't remember which depot / grade but one somewhere certainly does.

Maybe from the old days but the bus would still be quicker going down the M6. And I would be very surprised if any current VT driver still had that route on their card now. Most of that route is 60mph. The bus can travel at 70 mph up the motorway which is much more direct

MidnightFlyer · 4 Jan 2014

I should add when it does happens it's not every train that does it - usually something like two northbound in the morning and two southbound in the evening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TOCDriver said:
Maybe from the old days, but truth be told, the bus would still be quicker going down the M6. And I would be very surprised if any current VT driver still had that route on their card now.

I did one Glasgow-Preston via Settle on a Voyager 18 months ago and I'm sure they were also on at some point in 2013 too.

TOCDriver · 4 Jan 2014

MattE2010 said:
I should add when it does happens it's not every train that does it - usually something like two northbound in the morning and two southbound in the evening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I did one Glasgow-Preston via Settle on a Voyager 18 months ago and I'm sure they were also on at some point in 2013 too.

I bow to your knowledge but remember that they have to service Penrith and Oxenholme too, so a rail diversion is out of the question in terms of economics. Only the bus can do the job

MidnightFlyer · 4 Jan 2014

There are also these moves every Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday (as required), a light loco from Preston-Settle-Carlisle-Settle-Preston, according to RTT a Virgin service. Seems a bit of an odd move, so it might be for route knowledge retention purposes?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81002/2014/03/13/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81009/2014/03/13/advanced
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TOCDriver said:
I bow to your knowledge but remember that they have to service Penrith and Oxenholme too, so a rail diversion is out of the question in terms of economics. Only the bus can do the job

Yeah, like I said above it's only once or twice a day each way when it happens. Would be interesting to know what split though would use the bus or remain onboard when it's advertised as a through service.

EE Andy b1 · 4 Jan 2014

MattE2010 said:
There are also these moves every Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday (as required), a light loco from Preston-Settle-Carlisle-Settle-Preston, according to RTT a Virgin service. Seems a bit of an odd move, so it might be for route knowledge retention purposes?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81002/2014/03/13/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81009/2014/03/13/advanced
[.

Spot on. Virgin trains Preston based drivers and train managers use this light engine movement for route knowledge retention. Normally a Class 57 as and when required like you say.

Why Virgin trains haven't had train diversions via Settle/Carlisle for through passengers as in the past is a bit of a mystery. Maybe it's down to costs and the short period of closure.

The last thing you really want is to be stuck on a coach instead of a train! IMO.

Timothy Turtle · 4 Jan 2014

MattE2010 said:
Yeah, like I said above it's only once or twice a day each way when it happens. Would be interesting to know what split though would use the bus or remain onboard when it's advertised as a through service.

I would think that quite a few passengers would prefer to stay on the train rather than the hassle of transferring to a bus. Otherwise, why bother with the train - simply go coach all the way.....

yorksrob · 4 Jan 2014

TOCDriver said:
Maybe from the old days but the bus would still be quicker going down the M6. And I would be very surprised if any current VT driver still had that route on their card now. Most of that route is 60mph. The bus can travel at 70 mph up the motorway which is much more direct

What passenger in their right mind would prefer a bus transfer, even against a slightly slower rail route

Whistler40145 · 4 Jan 2014

What work is being carried out & where is it taking place?

I can imagine that Virgin isn't diverting via the Settle & Carlisle is that they now run Euston to Glasgow/Edinburgh via Birmingham, whereas when they did divert this way, the services started at Birmingham, therefore if there were any delays, it would potentially put the timetable "Up Sh*t creek"!

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yorksrob · 4 Jan 2014

Since these are planned engineering works, you'd have thought they'd put at least a couple of diversions in, even if they don't run all of them. Then at least those that wanted to, could congregate on the through trains.

TOCDriver · 5 Jan 2014

yorksrob said:
What passenger in their right mind would prefer a bus transfer, even against a slightly slower rail route

True, but logistically it would be far more complicated splitting passengers up for through diversions and coaching off those to intermediate stations. Much more costly too. Better and cheaper to use 100% bus

yorksrob · 5 Jan 2014

TOCDriver said:
True, but logistically it would be far more complicated splitting passengers up for through diversions and coaching off those to intermediate stations. Much more costly too. Better and cheaper to use 100% bus

I'm not convinced. On some of the longer bustitutions I've been unfortunate enough to encounter, the TOC has split passengers going straight to the destination on to a separate bus from the stopper. Infact, I think when they were doing Ore tunnel recently, I believe they had a mixture of fast and stopper buses between Ashford and Hastings, so it must be much more compelling to at least divert the long distance passengers on an InterCity main line.

Not to seems like corporate penny pinching.

thealexweb · 5 Jan 2014

MattE2010 said:
I'm 99% certain some Virgin drivers sign via Preston-Clitheroe-Settle-Carlisle. Can't remember which depot / grade but one somewhere certainly does.

It is true that at least Virgin drivers are trained for this route. This image confirms it.

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=19301

yorkie · 5 Jan 2014

thealexweb said:
It is true that at least Virgin drivers are trained for this route. This image confirms it.

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=19301

Does that image confirm that the Virgin Trains driver signed the route?

I am not suggesting you are incorrect in your assertion that there wasn't additionally a driver from another company who signs the route, as I have no idea myself, but I am not sure how we can confirm that fact based on the photo.

thealexweb · 5 Jan 2014

yorkie said:
Does that image confirm that the Virgin Trains driver signed the route?

I am not suggesting you are incorrect in your assertion that there wasn't additionally a driver from another company who signs the route, as I have no idea myself, but I am not sure how we can confirm that fact based on the photo.

As it was a Virgin thunderbird I made the assumption it was a Virgin driver. Guess that was a big assumption in hindsight.

scotsman · 5 Jan 2014

I'm aware of at least one Virgin driver who signs the route - from Preston - , which somewhat sets the precedent and concurs with the previous assertion that (some?) Virgin TMs and Drivers from Preston sign the route

Eagle · 5 Jan 2014

TimSYoung40145 said:
I can imagine that Virgin isn't diverting via the Settle & Carlisle is that they now run Euston to Glasgow/Edinburgh via Birmingham, whereas when they did divert this way, the services started at Birmingham, therefore if there were any delays, it would potentially put the timetable "Up Sh*t creek"!

I think it's to do with this.

Since the new timetable, more trains to Scotland are Pendolinos (and fewer are Voyagers), and of course it's much more logistically complicated to divert a Pendolino via Settle.

class26 · 5 Jan 2014

TOCDriver said:
Maybe from the old days but the bus would still be quicker going down the M6. And I would be very surprised if any current VT driver still had that route on their card now. Most of that route is 60mph. The bus can travel at 70 mph up the motorway which is much more direct

Coaches CANNOT travel at 70 mph in the UK or any other EU country. They are all limited by speed governers that restrict speed to 100 KILOMETRES PER HOUR which is 62 mph. This puts severe limits on coaches on motorways as they have not the overtaking ability that 70 mph would allow as they simply run out of acceleration just over 60 mph.

d429uk · 5 Jan 2014

I see TPE are providing a through service by diverting via Newcastle well actually extending the Newcastle's to EDB and GLC which has to be better than a Bus

55018ballymoss · 5 Jan 2014

MattE2010 said:
There are also these moves every Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday (as required), a light loco from Preston-Settle-Carlisle-Settle-Preston, according to RTT a Virgin service. Seems a bit of an odd move, so it might be for route knowledge retention purposes?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81002/2014/03/13/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81009/2014/03/13/advanced
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah, like I said above it's only once or twice a day each way when it happens. Would be interesting to know what split though would use the bus or remain onboard when it's advertised as a through service.

Yes, it is the route learner. Using the Preston Thunderbird Class 57 (provided it is not needed elsewhere). Usually runs early, and despite the schedule, turns round as soon as it gets to Carlisle, so can run anything up to three and a half hours early southbound!

Whilst it is true that buses on the M6 are quicker than the route via Clitheroe and Settle, some passengers especially those with a lot of luggage appreciate a through service. Good on Virgin for maintaining the diversions, and shame on TransPennine Express who do not!

TOCDriver · 5 Jan 2014

yorkie said:
Does that image confirm that the Virgin Trains driver signed the route?

I am not suggesting you are incorrect in your assertion that there wasn't additionally a driver from another company who signs the route, as I have no idea myself, but I am not sure how we can confirm that fact based on the photo.

That Pendolino will be loco hauled because there are no wires there. Therefore, the driver will probably not be a virgin man.

yorksrob · 5 Jan 2014

55018ballymoss said:
Good on Virgin for maintaining the diversions, and shame on TransPennine Express who do not!

Provided they actually use this capability and don't just shove everyone onto a bus instead.

TOCDriver · 5 Jan 2014

class26 said:
Coaches CANNOT travel at 70 mph in the UK or any other EU country. They are all limited by speed governers that restrict speed to 100 KILOMETRES PER HOUR which is 62 mph. This puts severe limits on coaches on motorways as they have not the overtaking ability that 70 mph would allow as they simply run out of acceleration just over 60 mph.

So I'm 8 mph out! Big deal. They can still overtake Lorries at that speed and a coach would still be quicker going down the M6
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

thealexweb said:
It is true that at least Virgin drivers are trained for this route. This image confirms it.

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=19301

An electric train running without electricity! How do they do that? lol

yorksrob · 5 Jan 2014

TOCDriver said:
So I'm 8 mph out! Big deal. They can still overtake Lorries at that speed and a coach would still be quicker going down the M6

If people wanted to whizz up and down motorways on a coach, they'd shell out twenty quid for the National Express.

TOCDriver · 5 Jan 2014

yorksrob said:
If people wanted to whizz up and down motorways on a coach, they'd shell out twenty quid for the National Express.

Well let them shell out 20 quid when engineering works are on. Nobody is forcing them to buy rail tickets. What is the rail industry supposed to do when main lines are shut off? Buy air tickets for them all?

Tomnick · 5 Jan 2014

TOCDriver said:
What is the rail industry supposed to do when main lines are shut off? Buy air tickets for them all?

If a sensible and appropriate diversionary route is available, then why shouldn't its use be encouraged? I'm sure there are good reasons for not diverting over the S&C in this case, but I doubt the majority of passengers are delighted at having to change from train to bus and back again.

yorksrob · 5 Jan 2014

TOCDriver said:
Well let them shell out 20 quid when engineering works are on. Nobody is forcing them to buy rail tickets. What is the rail industry supposed to do when main lines are shut off? Buy air tickets for them all?

Er, use a diversionary route :idea:

47802 · 5 Jan 2014

I think its very poor really its not that long ago virgin would provide a significant number of services routed via the S&C for such engineering works, both Pendolino + 57 and voyager.

Of course since then virgin have got rid of all their 57's with only a few retained by DRS for thunderbird duties.

Never the less that doesn't stop them running some voyagers wasn't that part of the justification for retaining so many voyagers on the west coast for diversionary purposes, however it would seem to now fall under the carn't be arsed/ too expensive category. One wonders if its the provision of the current contract that virgin have that they dont have to provide so much in the way of diverted services.

I seem to recall similar engineering works last year and I think there was 1 voyager service via the S&C.

Of course the north west electrification will give increased electrified diversonary routes south of Preston, but doesn't improve the situation north of Preston that's why I think the Newcastle Carlisle route should have high consideration for electrification, and should offer a reasonable bin a railbus return. Ok probably wouldn't be that much help between Preston and Carlisle but would be useful north of Carlisle and Newcastle.

Lancaster to Carlisle Engineering Works

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