Cut off points for booking Advance tickets by TOC

gray1404 · 6 Sep 2015

I found the following list of cut of points for advance tickets on Martin Lewis site. Can anyone comment if this list is correct. I believe 11.59pm the day before travel is the most generous, 6pm the night before can be annoying!

On the day: CrossCountry (up to 15 minutes before subject to availability), Heathrow Express.

11.59pm the day before Abellio Greater Anglia, Virgin East Coast, Grand Central, London Midland, South West Trains, Virgin Trains

6pm the day before Arriva Trains Wales, Chiltern Railways (at ticket offices; 9pm via website or app), East Midlands Trains, First Great Western, First Hull Trains, First TransPennine Express, Northern Rail, ScotRail, Southeastern, Southern Rail.

Others Stansted Express (online only at least seven days in advance), C2C (must be at least seven days in advance).

Advance tickets not available Gatwick Express, Merseyrail, Thameslink

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island · 6 Sep 2015

Well Heathrow Express should be under "Advance tickets not available", for starters.

dzug2 · 6 Sep 2015

island said:
Well Heathrow Express should be under "Advance tickets not available", for starters.

Why? They are available with a cut off of before boarding

I think the list is correct

Simon11 · 6 Sep 2015

c2c Advance tickets are available up to 3 days before departure.

island · 6 Sep 2015

dzug2 said:
Why? They are available with a cut off of before boarding

I think the list is correct

Heathrow Express does not issue Advance tickets, only Anytime tickets.

gray1404 · 6 Sep 2015

For a couple of those TOCs listed as 6pm the day before above, this is normally true, but I have on occasion found exceptions to this and been able to book Advance tickets later the night before. This can be very hit and miss though for some reason and I would certainly not rely on it.

yorkie · 6 Sep 2015

gray1404 said:
For a couple of those TOCs listed as 6pm the day before above, this is normally true, but I have on occasion found exceptions to this and been able to book Advance tickets later the night before. This can be very hit and miss though for some reason and I would certainly not rely on it.

Indeed, and reservations may close earlier for some early morning services I believe.

gray1404 · 6 Sep 2015

Forgot to add in OP, if journey on Advance ticket involves travel on reservable services across more then one TOC, and both have different cut off times, then would it be the cut time for the fare setter that would apply, or that of the TOC which had the earliest cut off point of the 2?

najaB · 6 Sep 2015

gray1404 said:
Forgot to add in OP, if journey on Advance ticket involves travel on reservable services across more then one TOC, and both have different cut off times, then would it be the cut time for the fare setter that would apply, or that of the TOC which had the earliest cut off point of the 2?

The latest it could be is the reservation cut-off point e.g. four hours for VTWC.

dzug2 · 6 Sep 2015

island said:
Heathrow Express does not issue Advance tickets, only Anytime tickets.

but at a reduced price.

Stansted Express is much the same but a longer cut off period.

SickyNicky · 7 Sep 2015

It's also worth pointing out that brfares.com lists the cut-off points (or booking deadlines) against each ticket.

Mojo · 7 Sep 2015

This post is from April 2013 but may be of interest:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1436091&postcount=6

DaiGog · 7 Sep 2015

In practice, a TOC listing its cut-off time as 18:00 the previous day will often offer Advance tickets later, but will not guarantee availability any later. Reservations (not Advance bookings) often close simply when the labels are printed, which can be as late as 2 hours before departure.

Mojo · 7 Sep 2015

CrossCountry will offer Advance tickets, bought through their website or App, at very short notice.

Paul Kelly · 7 Sep 2015

gray1404 said:
Forgot to add in OP, if journey on Advance ticket involves travel on reservable services across more then one TOC, and both have different cut off times, then would it be the cut time for the fare setter that would apply, or that of the TOC which had the earliest cut off point of the 2?

Technically, the booking deadline is defined by ticket type, and in theory can be different for each advance tier - London Midland are the worst culprits for this; if you look at standard class advances available for a Rugby to Stafford journey, there are three different booking deadlines for the different advance tiers: 18:00, 18:10 and 23:59!

The fact that each TOC generally has a set of unique ticket types that it uses for advances priced by it means it is possible to generalise the booking deadline by TOC in most cases, though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

DaiGog said:
In practice, a TOC listing its cut-off time as 18:00 the previous day will often offer Advance tickets later

Surely it needs to abide by the deadline corresponding to the ticket type? Otherwise it would have an unfair advantage over third party booking engines that need to do so.

Bletchleyite · 7 Sep 2015

Indigo2 said:
Surely it needs to abide by the deadline corresponding to the ticket type? Otherwise it would have an unfair advantage over third party booking engines that need to do so.

No booking engine needs to do so. All of them can do tickets (walk-up) close to departure time, though WebTIS obviously closer than Trainline.

Paul Kelly · 7 Sep 2015

Neil Williams said:
No booking engine needs to do so. All of them can do tickets (walk-up) close to departure time, though WebTIS obviously closer than Trainline.

Well walk-up tickets don't have a booking deadline obviously!

I was talking about advance tickets.

CyrusWuff · 7 Sep 2015

A quick look through the 552(!) Advance ticket types in the ATOC NFM21 fares feed gives us the following:

206 have a cutoff of 1800 the day before travel, encompassing Southern, Transpennine Express, Arriva Trains Wales, First Great Western, Caledonian Sleeper, Scotrail, London Midland, Grand Central, Hull Trains and Abellio Greater Anglia
The former Central Trains 1 Day Advance (ticket type C1S) is set at 18:10
SuperAdvance Singles are set at 18:30
First Great Western "Inclusive Tour" tickets (CL1, CL2, CM1, CM2, CH1 and CH2) are set for 19:00
The majority (282 types) are set for 23:59 the day before travel
Chiltern's £6 Advance tickets are set to 21:00 three days before travel
CrossCountry "Small Group" tickets are set to 23:59 seven days before travel
SailRail from Harwich - Hook of Holland has 1, 3, 7 and 14 day Advance options, all by 23:59

Bletchleyite · 7 Sep 2015

Indigo2 said:
Well walk-up tickets don't have a booking deadline obviously! I was talking about advance tickets.

My point was just that none of the booking engines have any technical disadvantage with regard to late booking of Advance tickets provided the TOC makes them available.

button_boxer · 7 Sep 2015

Indigo2 said:
Technically, the booking deadline is defined by ticket type, and in theory can be different for each advance tier - London Midland are the worst culprits for this; if you look at standard class advances available for a Rugby to Stafford journey, there are three different booking deadlines for the different advance tiers: 18:00, 18:10 and 23:59!

That's just bizarre. I could kind of understand it if the cheaper ones had an earlier cutoff and the more expensive ones later, but the tiers (from cheapest to most expensive) cut off at 1800, 2359, 1800, 2359 and 1810 in that order!

Bletchleyite · 7 Sep 2015

button_boxer said:
That's just bizarre. I could kind of understand it if the cheaper ones had an earlier cutoff and the more expensive ones later, but the tiers (from cheapest to most expensive) cut off at 1800, 2359, 1800, 2359 and 1810 in that order!

Knowing LM as a regular passenger, it wouldn't completely surprise me if this was just incompetence rather than deliberate, based on different people having added the different tiers to the system without having bothered talking to each other

lemonic · 7 Sep 2015

button_boxer said:
That's just bizarre. I could kind of understand it if the cheaper ones had an earlier cutoff and the more expensive ones later, but the tiers (from cheapest to most expensive) cut off at 1800, 2359, 1800, 2359 and 1810 in that order!

It is logical if the intention is to potentially increase the price a little bit but not by too much (which could risk that the sale isn't made altogether). However, there is also a chance that the different cut-offs have been in there awhile and no-one at London Midland has known about them, especially if the 1810 time dates from Central Trains days!

I know a lot of TOCs automatically give some of the cheapest tiers a zero quota a certain number of days before travel for certain trains.

Paul Kelly · 7 Sep 2015

Neil Williams said:
My point was just that none of the booking engines have any technical disadvantage with regard to late booking of Advance tickets provided the TOC makes them available.

But even if the reservations system still allows reservations to be made, each advance tier has an associated fixed booking deadline independent of the reservations system, beyond which it is not supposed to be sold.

If what DaiGog was suggesting is true, it would mean you could possibly go to a booking office after that deadline and the clerk might use his/her discretion ignore it and sell you the advance anyway, as long as the reservations system was still accepting bookings for that train. Whereas booking engines, without that human level of flexibility/discretion, are required to enforce the deadlines associated with each advance tier in the fares data, and indeed would likely fail their accreditation if they didn't. (As far as I know anyway; to be fair I haven't tested different booking engines to see if they all enforce the deadlines correctly.)

island · 8 Sep 2015

lemonic said:
It is logical if the intention is to potentially increase the price a little bit but not by too much (which could risk that the sale isn't made altogether). However, there is also a chance that the different cut-offs have been in there awhile and no-one at London Midland has known about them, especially if the 1810 time dates from Central Trains days!

I know a lot of TOCs automatically give some of the cheapest tiers a zero quota a certain number of days before travel for certain trains.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

gray1404 · 8 Sep 2015

Where abouts on Brfares do you find the cut off point for a specific fare that you've brought up?

dzug2 · 8 Sep 2015

gray1404 said:
Where abouts on Brfares do you find the cut off point for a specific fare that you've brought up?

It's shown against the individual fare when you bring up the list of fares for a journey. For example (formatting only slightly awry):

ADVANCE 1ST
W1Q Route
GREAT WESTN ONLY Validity
BOOKDTRAINONLY
Restrictions
QS GWR ADVANCE Adult
£34.00 Child
£17.00 ◊

VALID ON DATE&TRAIN SHOWN ONLY.LMTD CHNGE.NO RFND.

Ticket issued to: LONDON TERMINALS
Fare Setter: FIRST GREAT WESTERN ADVANCE

Booking Deadline: 18:00, 1 day in advance of travel Journey must include travel on the following main TOC: FIRST GREAT WESTERN
Connecting travel (where permitted by routeing) is allowed on: any TOC

gray1404 · 8 Sep 2015

dzug2 said:
It's shown against the individual fare when you bring up the list of fares for a journey. For example (formatting only slightly awry):

ADVANCE 1ST
W1Q Route
GREAT WESTN ONLY Validity
BOOKDTRAINONLY
Restrictions
QS GWR ADVANCE Adult
£34.00 Child
£17.00 ◊

VALID ON DATE&TRAIN SHOWN ONLY.LMTD CHNGE.NO RFND.

Ticket issued to: LONDON TERMINALS
Fare Setter: FIRST GREAT WESTERN ADVANCE

Booking Deadline: 18:00, 1 day in advance of travel Journey must include travel on the following main TOC: FIRST GREAT WESTERN
Connecting travel (where permitted by routeing) is allowed on: any TOC

Thank you! I see it now. I was looking in Expert mode so was not seeing it. However, a switch to Simple mode and I see it.

I assume it doesn't show in Expert mode?

Eboordna · 11 Sep 2015

As of Sept 6th, TPE now offer AP until 23:59.

Cut off points for booking Advance tickets by TOC

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