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Corby to Derby Train - What type of train is it?

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RyBro5676

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I am talking about the 09:26 leaving Corby and arriving at Derby at 10:45

This is a parliamentary train where there is one service a day there and back.

I live in Melton Mowbray where I would catch this train to go to Derby as a day trip since it is the only direct service that goes there.

The train company is East Midlands Trains where the last time I went there was 2 years ago where it was a class 222 Merdian which was 4 cars.

I have checked the timetable, and it says that this service is operated by a HST!

I would like to know if this is right and if it is, when did East Midlands Trains start doing this and why are they doing it?

p.s. I am going to Derby in a months time and if it is operated by a HST, this has got to be the shortest journey ever by that train class.
 
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PHILIPE

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Here is the Meridian 4 Car Diagram:-
Is it a Parliamentary or Route Retention train ?

Diagram 3
5P99 0513 Etches Park Sdgs to Corby 0654
1P12 0708 Corby to Kettering 0717
1M00 0738 Kettering to Corby 0747
1P19 0802 Corby to Kettering 0811
1M05 0832 Kettering to Corby 0841
5M05 0851 Corby to Corby North Run-round Loop 0853
5M06 0918 Corby North Run-round Loop to Corby 0920
1M06 0926 Corby to Derby 1045
5M06 1055 Derby to Etches Park Sdgs 1109
5P69 1613 Etches Park Sdgs to Derby 1627
1P69 1636 Derby to St Pancras International 1926 (Via Corby)
1D74 2030 St Pancras International to Nottingham 2218 (Leading unit)
5D74 2240 Nottingham to Etches Park Sdgs 2330
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fishquinn

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Oh ok. I checked both the EMT timetable and RTT. Both said tram so I just assumed.

Before someone comes along and says that RTT doesn't show what a train is booked for, I know. RTT is usually quite accurate for the EMT intercity services.
 
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70014IronDuke

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PHILIPE said:
Here is the Meridian 4 Car Diagram:-
Is it a Parliamentary or Route Retention train ?


__________________
Click to expand...

Surely it is not a parliamentary train. There was no service north of Corby for many years, and no legal need to introduce one. (Unless it was in the franchise bid as a condition - I doubt it.)

But, having done so, what now? Does it mean the operator must maintain the service?

There is still the one up and evening return via Melton to St Pancras, of course.
 
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swt_passenger

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70014IronDuke said:
Surely it is not a parliamentary train. There was no service north of Corby for many years, and no legal need to introduce one. (Unless it was in the franchise bid as a condition - I doubt it.)

But, having done so, what now? Does it mean the operator must maintain the service?
Click to expand...

I agree, an 'off pattern' service on its own (even if one way) doesn't make something parliamentary, what they are presumably doing is putting into public use a train which would otherwise cover the same route from the depot to enter service as empty stock (ECS).

In the general case DfT can eventually make any service part of a franchise specification, but they still have a means of treating it as some sort of a 'medium term trial' # and therefore there'd still be a possibility of cancelling it without formal closure procedures.

# There's a name for this type of service but I'm blowed if I can find it at the moment.

Edited to add:

Is it an 'experimental service' under what was known as the Speller Amendment, IIRC they can be run for up to 5 years and closed without fuss?
 
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louis97

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70014IronDuke said:
Surely it is not a parliamentary train. There was no service north of Corby for many years, and no legal need to introduce one. (Unless it was in the franchise bid as a condition - I doubt it.)

But, having done so, what now? Does it mean the operator must maintain the service?

There is still the one up and evening return via Melton to St Pancras, of course.
Click to expand...

I presume Manton has always been a diversion route, does that count? At the moment it (and the return in the afternoon) basically acts as a route retention service - however in service instead of ECS.

Hairy Bear said:
Its booked a 4-car meridian. It will only be a HST if theve ran out of meridians and have one spare, which no longer happens anymore.
Click to expand...

Can't happen anymore, no spare set at Derby! Although that is highly likely the reason why the morning part of the diagram is timed for a HST, to allow for it to be one without causing any issues.
 
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70014IronDuke

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louis97 said:
I presume Manton has always been a diversion route, does that count?
Click to expand...

I thought at first you might be trolling here, but then decided perhaps not.

The Melton "Back Road" route was a main line until c1968, although at the end it was somewhat less so than up to 1966. Traditionally, most of the St Pancras - Sheffield - Bradford expresses went this way, along with the Waverley (but not the Thames-Clyde).

After the loss of the Manchester exrpesses to the WCML, BR decided it was no longer viable to keep open as a parallel route to the Trent-Leicester-St Pancras main line we have today.

Pancras - Sheffield expresses that went via Nottingham had to reverse there.

In fairness, Melton passengers could go to Leicester, Oakham (a small place in any case) to Peterborough. Only Corby really missed out - they were expected to bus it to Kettering.

It was kept open for freight, as its gradient profile is much better than the main line over Desboro summit.

louis97 said:
At the moment it (and the return in the afternoon) basically acts as a route retention service - however in service instead of ECS.
Click to expand...

Doesn't EMT say that it's timed to give Corby (and other stations) a connectoin into and out of a Glasgow XC train at Derby? In other words, a genuinely commercial service?

I think i remember reading that if successful, more trains would be considered.

Does anyone know how well (or poorly?) used it is?
 
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fsmr

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Yes the Corby line takes scheduled trains and planned diversions. It also takes emergency diversions such as occurred with last weeks signal cable damage below Leicester In that case none of the EMT diverted trains showed correctly on RTT as according to RTT they dont go in the systems the same so the train effectively vanishes at Leicester as it then has to head North to Syston and around through Oakham to re-join at Kettering

Interesting one today on driver training that went from St Pancras to Syston via Corby line and Oakham and then back to Cricklewood same way,

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C82761/2015/09/24/advanced

I live in Oakham, BTW
 
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fsmr said:
Interesting one today on driver training that went from St Pancras to Syston via Corby line and Oakham and then back to Cricklewood same way,

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C82761/2015/09/24/advanced
Click to expand...
That's been a fairly regular runner for some months now, for route retention as opposed to route learning as I understand it - London drivers, I'm told, have very little booked work between Syston and Corby (just 5P79 on a Saturday afternoon?), hence the addition of this one. 5Z44, on the other hand, which has run several times over the last few weeks (but cancelled today), is a route learner for Derby folk.
 
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tocguard

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70014IronDuke said:
Doesn't EMT say that it's timed to give Corby (and other stations) a connectoin into and out of a Glasgow XC train at Derby? In other words, a genuinely commercial service?

I think i remember reading that if successful, more trains would be considered.

Does anyone know how well (or poorly?) used it is?
Click to expand...

Quite possibly this may have been a thought to be operated by local route trains and crew. All emt sprinters have "Corby" and "Kettering" on the blinds. Presumably it could be operated as Corby or Kettering to Derby using existing Ivanhoe line stations therfore giving those communities direct services to new destinations.

Don't know about the patronage of the service as it's currently operated by Derby Mainline crew.

Unless anyone has any other ideas i can't understand why emt would have had those destinations printed on the blinds?

Obviously, providing such a service would mean having to have extra stock. Perhaps it was an initial thought towards the start of the franchise and the opening of corby station.
 
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Am i mis-reading this thread? Not sure whats unusual about Derby-Corby via Melton. Been booked trains on this route for years now.
 
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tocguard said:
Quite possibly this may have been a thought to be operated by local route trains and crew. All emt sprinters have "Corby" and "Kettering" on the blinds. Presumably it could be operated as Corby or Kettering to Derby using existing Ivanhoe line stations therfore giving those communities direct services to new destinations.

Don't know about the patronage of the service as it's currently operated by Derby Mainline crew.

Unless anyone has any other ideas i can't understand why emt would have had those destinations printed on the blinds?

Obviously, providing such a service would mean having to have extra stock. Perhaps it was an initial thought towards the start of the franchise and the opening of corby station.
Click to expand...
At some point, wasn't it proposed that the Corby service would consist of no more than a shuttle to Kettering, more suited to 15x traction? Obviously that was knocked on the head by the time that a through London service became a commitment, but the first part of the diagram above (5P99, 1P12, 1M00, 1P19, 1M05, 1M06) would, leaving aside the crewing issues, probably be adequately served by a local unit, maybe releasing the four-car unit to cover something else in the morning peak.
 
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swt_passenger

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dk1 said:
Am i mis-reading this thread? Not sure whats unusual about Derby-Corby via Melton. Been booked trains on this route for years now.
Click to expand...

A think a couple of us were just challenging the OP's presumption that it was a 'parliamentary', purely because of it being infrequent.

There was also the tangential question of whether any service once introduced automatically became permanent and would have to undergo closure proceedings if it ceased, and I found that there can be a 5 yr trial period, but the point wasn't about this particular train... That all probably lost the focus of the thread...
 
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dk1

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swt_passenger said:
A think a couple of us were just challenging the OP's presumption that it was a 'parliamentary', purely because of it being infrequent.

There was also the tangential question of whether any service once introduced automatically became permanent and would have to undergo closure proceedings if it ceased, and I found that there can be a 5 yr trial period, but the point wasn't about this particular train... That all probably lost the focus of the thread...
Click to expand...

Ok thanks. Confused me that one. I've used it a few times & the afternoon up train can be reasonably busy as they sell bargain basement APs to London St.Pan.
 
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tocguard

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Tomnick said:
At some point, wasn't it proposed that the Corby service would consist of no more than a shuttle to Kettering, more suited to 15x traction? Obviously that was knocked on the head by the time that a through London service became a commitment, but the first part of the diagram above (5P99, 1P12, 1M00, 1P19, 1M05, 1M06) would, leaving aside the crewing issues, probably be adequately served by a local unit, maybe releasing the four-car unit to cover something else in the morning peak.
Click to expand...

Tbh would make much more sense for a 9 minute journey! Total waste of a mainline unit and also in my opinion is a waste of time running direct Corby - STP every hour. I'm sure a waiting connection for 9 minutes is hardly an inconvenience to change trains!
 
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Tomnick

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tocguard said:
Tbh would make much more sense for a 9 minute journey! Total waste of a mainline unit and also in my opinion is a waste of time running direct Corby - STP every hour. I'm sure a waiting connection for 9 minutes is hardly an inconvenience to change trains!
Click to expand...
In fairness, the through trains (after the shuttles in the morning peak) do provide a fifth train per hour south of Kettering and take some of the pressure from intermediate stations off the longer distance services. I doubt it could ever be justified on the basis of the benefits to Corby alone!
 
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A0wen

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Tomnick said:
In fairness, the through trains (after the shuttles in the morning peak) do provide a fifth train per hour south of Kettering and take some of the pressure from intermediate stations off the longer distance services. I doubt it could ever be justified on the basis of the benefits to Corby alone!
Click to expand...

It was (and still is) a bit of a mixed blessing to the intermediate stations (Kettering, Wellingboro', Bedford and Luton) in that these services are usually quieter and the chances of getting a seat are much better than on the longer distance services - however it did mean the reduction, by 50%, of a useful northbound service to Leicester and beyond.

What they should have done is retained the Kettering stop to allow an every 30 min service from Kettering onto Leicester but deleted the others.

Longer term - the correct thing to do would be have Corby every 30 mins stopping at Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford and one of the Luton stations and then an hourly (Nottingham or Sheffield) service which runs fast to Wellingborough and then covers Kettering, Mkt Harborough and Leicester.
 
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Tomnick

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A0wen said:
It was (and still is) a bit of a mixed blessing to the intermediate stations (Kettering, Wellingboro', Bedford and Luton) in that these services are usually quieter and the chances of getting a seat are much better than on the longer distance services - however it did mean the reduction, by 50%, of a useful northbound service to Leicester and beyond.

What they should have done is retained the Kettering stop to allow an every 30 min service from Kettering onto Leicester but deleted the others.

Longer term - the correct thing to do would be have Corby every 30 mins stopping at Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford and one of the Luton stations and then an hourly (Nottingham or Sheffield) service which runs fast to Wellingborough and then covers Kettering, Mkt Harborough and Leicester.
Click to expand...
What, not everyone wants to travel to London?!

Although it does represent quite an improvement for Loughborough (as one train per hour is now fast to London after Leicester), it does limit the options for journeys to intermediate stations south of Leicester compared to the previous timetable, but then I suppose 1tph wouldn't be considered bad for a regional link between relatively small towns if they didn't happen to be on the way to London!
 
CockneySparrow

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RyBro5676 said:
I am talking about the 09:26 leaving Corby and arriving at Derby at 10:45

This is a parliamentary train where there is one service a day there and back.

I live in Melton Mowbray where I would catch this train to go to Derby as a day trip since it is the only direct service that goes there.

The train company is East Midlands Trains where the last time I went there was 2 years ago where it was a class 222 Merdian which was 4 cars.

I have checked the timetable, and it says that this service is operated by a HST!

I would like to know if this is right and if it is, when did East Midlands Trains start doing this and why are they doing it?

p.s. I am going to Derby in a months time and if it is operated by a HST, this has got to be the shortest journey ever by that train class.
Click to expand...

I think the service has been in place since Corby station reopened again, not really a parliament train in the sense that the route has always been a diversion route, nearly every winter on Sundays there were booking to go that route as maintenance was taking place between Leicester and Kettering
 
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bunnahabhain

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I can't quite remember, but I'm fairly sure the plan was for a Corby to Bedford (London off peak?) service operated using 2x158 sets, these being released by using the 222/4 sets on certain Nottingham to Liverpool diagrams. This wasn't really suitable to either service for capacity reasons so it didn't happen!
 
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rower40

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Currently on board this (derby to st p via corby).
while we crawled round the Syston north curve, a freight came the other way.
How often has anyone seen two trains pass on that curve?
 
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70014IronDuke

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rower40 said:
Currently on board this (derby to st p via corby).
while we crawled round the Syston north curve, a freight came the other way.
How often has anyone seen two trains pass on that curve?
Click to expand...

I am intrigued by such odd workings.

What are the loadings like? Has anyone got on a Melton, or Oakham?

Or off, for that matter?
 
rower40

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Not very busy. I was travelling Derby to Cambridge; and the only other passenger in 1st class also alighted (alit?) at Oakham.

When I used this a few weeks ago on a Friday evening, the conductor told me that EM Trains sold many cheap tickets on that train, to boost the loadings.
 
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