Great Northern train order

The Ham · 22 Dec 2015

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ed-to-supply-moorgate-suburban-emu-fleet.html

Passenger franchisee Govia Thameslink Railway announced on December 22 that it had selected Siemens as preferred bidder for a contract to supply 25 six-car electric multiple-units for use on Great Northern suburban services from Welwyn Garden City, Hertford, Stevenage and Letchworth into London's Moorgate station from 2018.

The contract is expected to be finalised in the New Year. GTR is to run a separate competition to provide financing for the order, which would be worth more than £200m.

Intended to replace the ex-British Rail Class 313 fleet dating from 1976-77, GTR said the dual voltage 25 kV 50 Hz/750 V DC third rail EMUs would be a variant of the Class 700 Desiro City trainsets which Siemens is building for use on GTRs Thameslink route.

The high-capacity trains will have full width inter-vehicle gangways, although will not have longitudinal seating. They will have air-conditioning, power sockets, 'the latest in passenger information systems', and be fully compliant with accessibility legislation. Toilets will not be fitted. Plans for the installation of wi-fi are being discussed with the Department for Transport as part of a wider programme for the GTR fleet.

'Coupled with the seven-day-a-week service to Moorgate that we started this month, these new trains will give our passengers a superior, modern, comfortable journey with more capacity, improved reliability, air-conditioning and passenger information systems that can be remotely updated to provide real-time information', said GTR Fleet Director Gerry McFadden.

...so more 70x commuter trains heading to London.

RailUK Forums

Peter Mugridge · 22 Dec 2015

The front end in that artist's impression is just about the most sinister I have ever seen.

swt_passenger · 22 Dec 2015

The Ham said:
...so more 70x commuter trains heading to London.

They could even just be a sub class of 707 as they seem to be basically a 6 car version of the SWT 707 order.

Interesting that the manufacturer has been announced despite people unsuccessfully scouring the interweb for any info about the ITT and the selected bidders. Perhaps it was a negotiated order...

(Although the Rail Magazine version of the story says they'll be 700s. Short 700s or long 707s, I guess we'll have to wait and see...)

petersi · 22 Dec 2015

It makes a lot of sense
Hornseywill be set to maintain the trains
Minimises the driver training requirement

Philip Phlopp · 22 Dec 2015

Can I ask for permission to buy a locomotive and turn the Class 313 units into LHCS, RailUK Forums ?

Stats · 22 Dec 2015

petersi said:
It makes a lot of sense
Hornseywill be set to maintain the trains
Minimises the driver training requirement

With lineside signals being removed from the Moorgate branch shortly after the units are introduced it makes sense for them to have units they have some experience of running with ETCS, rather than introducing and have to learn how to overcome a whole new set of problems with another manufacturer's technology.

100andthirty · 22 Dec 2015

Peter Mugridge said:
The front end in that artist's impression is just about the most sinister I have ever seen.

Perhaps it is the combination of the angle of the computer image and the different shape necessary to accommodate a front door which I assume is required for emergency evacuation in the single track tunnels

HMS Ark Royal · 22 Dec 2015

Looks a bit like a reworked 442 to me

Stats · 22 Dec 2015

Other images (courtesy GTR)
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B37S24j3JgC7R0tTLWkySXhTZlk&usp=sharing

AM9 · 22 Dec 2015

100andthirty said:
Perhaps it is the combination of the angle of the computer image and the different shape necessary to accommodate a front door which I assume is required for emergency evacuation in the single track tunnels

I think that it looks even more like a grasshopper or praying mantis than a 700. I think that now a yellow end is not needed the all white bodywork emphasises the blacked-out windscreen.

Domh245 · 22 Dec 2015

My observations:

Central door, so cab layout will be something like the 378s. The cab section has been widened to enable this, as seen by the narrower white strip next to the windscreen, as well as the single lamp per cluster. Everything else just looks like a standard Desiro City, so it should *only* be a different cab assembly.

NickBucks · 22 Dec 2015

Excuse my naivety but how can Govia get away with no toilets on these new units whilst other very old stock is having to be made compliant with easy access toilets within the next few years ? I foresee problems on a late running service to Welwyn when someone has had a little too much to drink.

cjmillsnun · 22 Dec 2015

NickBucks said:
Excuse my naivety but how can Govia get away with no toilets on these new units whilst other very old stock is having to be made compliant with easy access toilets within the next few years ? I foresee problems on a late running service to Welwyn when someone has had a little too much to drink.

Do 313s have toilets? Nope... In that respect it's a like for like replacement.

An alternative to make trains compliant is to remove the toilet altogether.

A-driver · 22 Dec 2015

NickBucks said:
Excuse my naivety but how can Govia get away with no toilets on these new units whilst other very old stock is having to be made compliant with easy access toilets within the next few years ? I foresee problems on a late running service to Welwyn when someone has had a little too much to drink.

The units will only be going as far as welwyn and Stevenage-trips which are currently done by 313s with no toilets.

swt_passenger · 22 Dec 2015

NickBucks said:
Excuse my naivety but how can Govia get away with no toilets on these new units whilst other very old stock is having to be made compliant with easy access toilets within the next few years ? I foresee problems on a late running service to Welwyn when someone has had a little too much to drink.

There are plenty of new trains on order without toilets. 345s for Crossrail, 707s for SWT, 7xx for LO West Anglia transferred routes, and Goblin electrification.

RVAR requirements universal access only apply if toilets are fitted.

Brian Aylott · 22 Dec 2015

cjmillsnun said:
Do 313s have toilets? Nope... In that respect it's a like for like replacement.

An alternative to make trains compliant is to remove the toilet altogether.

This surely is not allowed in the regulations
Brian

TheNewNo2 · 23 Dec 2015

Peter Mugridge said:
The front end in that artist's impression is just about the most sinister I have ever seen.

I personally thought it looked a rather happy train.

Doesn't the Northern City Line have a reduced loading gauge compared to the rest of the network, necessitating 313s as they're small? I'd have thought 700s would be too big to fit.

Clip · 23 Dec 2015

Brian Aylott said:
This surely is not allowed in the regulations
Brian

What regulations state that then?

Surely the bigger worry is that they would try and use these on longer services where it would be nice to have a toilet on

Philip Phlopp · 23 Dec 2015

TheNewNo2 said:
I personally thought it looked a rather happy train.

Doesn't the Northern City Line have a reduced loading gauge compared to the rest of the network, necessitating 313s as they're small? I'd have thought 700s would be too big to fit.

If the Class 700 family are similar in size/shape to the Class 380 units in Scotland, they'll also be very close in size, height and width to the 313 family. We managed restricted clearance electrification of Paisley Canal because the 380 and 314 units, which are so similarly shaped, are nice and low in comparison with some other stock.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Clip said:
What regulations state that then?

Surely the bigger worry is that they would try and use these on longer services where it would be nice to have a toilet on

The toilet is a modular component on these units, from memory, and can quickly be installed with minimum downtime if required.

Clip · 23 Dec 2015

Philip Phlopp said:
The toilet is a modular component on these units, from memory, and can quickly be installed with minimum downtime if required.

That doesn't quite help if they decide to switch one to a Peterborough service or some such does it?

ainsworth74 · 23 Dec 2015

Clip said:
That doesn't quite help if they decide to switch one to a Peterborough service or some such does it?

Depends on how quick it can be installed

Clip · 23 Dec 2015

ainsworth74 said:
Depends on how quick it can be installed

You'd probably find it better just to spend 30 pee at the cross whilst waiting

deltic08 · 23 Dec 2015

Peter Mugridge said:
The front end in that artist's impression is just about the most sinister I have ever seen.

I think they look more friendly that a 700.

Hadders · 23 Dec 2015

If the new trains are like the 313s then the top speed will only be 75mph meaning that they won't run to Peterborough or Cambridge as they won't be able to keep to time as these trains require 10mph.

The only time I can remember 313s running to Cambridge was after one of the accidents in the early 00's (either Hatfield or Potters Bar IIRC) when they were used to run a Stevenage-Cambridge shuttle as they were the only trains that were available in the area.

Toilets are not really required on the inner suburban services - it's more Metropolitan Line than Inter-City!

AM9 · 23 Dec 2015

Brian Aylott said:
This surely is not allowed in the regulations
Brian

The regulation is the Equality Acr (2010), (formerly the Disability Discrimination Act (1995)), which requires any facilities provided to apply equally to all whether able bodied, disabled etc..
Therefore if a facility isn't provided, there is no discrimination, and for short journeys like the Moorgate services, (the maximums are mostly are under 1 hour), it would be the same as for most other metro journeys, (including buses).
In practice, provision is usually based on average journey times to optimise passenger accomodation. For the Moorgate line trains ther avreage is likely to be under 30 minutes.

A0wen · 23 Dec 2015

Hadders said:
If the new trains are like the 313s then the top speed will only be 75mph meaning that they won't run to Peterborough or Cambridge as they won't be able to keep to time as these trains require 10mph.

The only time I can remember 313s running to Cambridge was after one of the accidents in the early 00's (either Hatfield or Potters Bar IIRC) when they were used to run a Stevenage-Cambridge shuttle as they were the only trains that were available in the area.

Toilets are not really required on the inner suburban services - it's more Metropolitan Line than Inter-City!

Even if they aren't limited to 75mph, they will definitely be geared for acceleration over top speed - but even then it's unlikely they'll stray onto outer-suburban workings other than in exceptional circumstances.

I can only think of a couple of occasions where I saw a 313 operating north of WGC on the mainline (i.e. not on Hertford - Stevenage - Letchworth service).

Given WAGN, FCC and now GTR seem capable of keeping the fleets separated for inner / outer work, I don't believe there will be a problem in future.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TheNewNo2 said:
Doesn't the Northern City Line have a reduced loading gauge compared to the rest of the network, necessitating 313s as they're small? I'd have thought 700s would be too big to fit.

NC loading gauge isn't a problem AIUI - other than the fact there's no height to allow for OHLE, hence the use of 3rd rail from Drayton Park.

In fact when BR first took over the line, they used converted Class 501 EMUs as battery locos whilst they were re-fitting the line before opening to passenger service - and a Class 501 height and width wise is slightly bigger than a MK3 EMU - and I can't believe a Desiro or Electrostar is that different to a MK3 EMU given the units they've replaced.

ainsworth74 · 23 Dec 2015

Clip said:
You'd probably find it better just to spend 30 pee at the cross whilst waiting

Probably

But on the issue of lack of toilets seeing as these are replacing 313s (that don't have them) do they (the 313s) ever end up going as far as Peterborough?

petersi · 23 Dec 2015

No they are not cleared for Peterborough
You would not want to run a 75 mph unit between Huntingdon and Peterborough as it would cause to much delay

ChiefPlanner · 23 Dec 2015

Not cleared north of Royston either ! - (they were used one weekend on an innovative semi-fast Royston - Moorgate service during engineering works)

313001 ought to be a candidate for the NRM - being the first of it's kind ?

D365 · 23 Dec 2015

ChiefPlanner said:
313001 ought to be a candidate for the NRM - being the first of it's kind ?

Currently running as 313201 under Southern (Coastway routes) and is not due to be replaced under the current franchise; it has a few more years of running left

Great Northern train order

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