But the alternative on offer was not PR.
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Second Scottish Independence Referendum
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Tim R-T-C
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Petition against having another referendum:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642
Interesting to see people talking in this thread about voting SNP but not wanting independence. If this represents a fair number of people in the country, SNP could lose out at the next election.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642
Interesting to see people talking in this thread about voting SNP but not wanting independence. If this represents a fair number of people in the country, SNP could lose out at the next election.
Hmm... interesting use of the word "persecution".
Also interesting that, despite the wording of the petition referring to "We in Scotland", some people have signed in every single constituency outwith Scotland as well. (EDIT - not that people outwith Scotland aren't entitled to have an opinion, it just seems strange that quite a lot of people outwith Scotland seem keen to suppress a democratic referendum in another country).
Meaningless, anyway. It'll almost certainly get to the 100,000 mark, maybe the opposing (equally meaningless) petition will as well (it's trailing quite a bit at the moment, but probably likely to get to at least the 10,000 mark). They'll have a symbolic debate, a quick vote to agree that the debate happened, and they'll do whatever they want anyway. Surely we've learned this from every other time a petition starts to take off?
Also interesting that, despite the wording of the petition referring to "We in Scotland", some people have signed in every single constituency outwith Scotland as well. (EDIT - not that people outwith Scotland aren't entitled to have an opinion, it just seems strange that quite a lot of people outwith Scotland seem keen to suppress a democratic referendum in another country).
Meaningless, anyway. It'll almost certainly get to the 100,000 mark, maybe the opposing (equally meaningless) petition will as well (it's trailing quite a bit at the moment, but probably likely to get to at least the 10,000 mark). They'll have a symbolic debate, a quick vote to agree that the debate happened, and they'll do whatever they want anyway. Surely we've learned this from every other time a petition starts to take off?
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Only if the Unionist parties get their acts together to present themselves as a viable alternative to the SNP.
You are assuming that people vote in the same way under a PR system. Many people vote tactically under FPTP and vote for the "least worst" rather than their preferred choice. Your party of choice may not even have a candidate in your constituency under FPTP as smaller parties have to prioritise their resources on the seats they are most likely to win.
The SNP has occupied a gap previously filled by the Labour Party. Voters may believe they're supporting a grassroots, socially aware party, but it's also a fundamentally nationalist party, like Sinn Fein, who also do good work at a local level. The SNP is a symptom of the failure of British politics north of the border. Voters who think they're subscribing to anything other than an independent Scotland are naïve IMO.
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http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-economics-guru-warns-independent-10028721
How has Scotlands overall performance been in the last 10 years of the SNP being in power? Coudl they handle another 10 years of misery?
How has Scotlands overall performance been in the last 10 years of the SNP being in power? Coudl they handle another 10 years of misery?
You are entitled to hold that opinion, but it is completely wrong.
backontrack
Established Member
Theresa May's attitude seems to be that if we're to go down then we should drag Scotland down too. It reeks of the Brexit attitude to drag everyone, even a country that didn't vote for Brexit, out of the EU because 'it's the will of the people'.
backontrack
Established Member
Who's going to lead the No campaign this time? Better Together were canny last time in choosing a figure who was actually Scottish in Alistair Darling, and who wasn't a Tory (they're still regarded as toxic by many). Who will do that job now? Ruth Davidson's ruled herself out...will it be J.K. Rowling or someone like that? Alistair Darling again? Ed Balls on a post-Strictly popularity drive? Ed Milliband? Probably not Tony Blair...is David Mundell all the Tories have left?
Personally, I think it might be Gordon Brown this time round.
Personally, I think it might be Gordon Brown this time round.
The evidence suggests I'm correct. The SNP will use any opportunity to represent political differences as the reason why Scotland should be an independent nation. That's their ultimate aim every bit as much as Sinn Fein's is a united Ireland. They're legitimate political ambitions but if people think the SNP's ambition goes no further than ensuring the bins are emptied and the buses keep running, they're deluding themselves and everyone else. Saying that's not true does not mean it isn't and time will show I'm correct.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
However, it doesn't mean that everyone who votes for them shares their core ambition.
A recent survey on attitudes of voters in the Republic of Ireland showed that 20% of Sinn Fein voters wouldn't vote for a unified Ireland in a border poll. (In any case, *all* the large parties in the Republic of Ireland state that the unity of the island is their long-term goal.)
Given that any constitutional change in Ireland or Scotland can only come about as the result of a plebiscite and cannot be decided by any party or politician, I don't see the hypocrisy myself. Many people think that Sinn Fein or the SNP or Plaid Cymru are simply the party that best shares their values on things like social justice, and aren't bothered about their central aim of independence/unification.
Even if the SNP were to get 100% of the vote in a the Scottish Parliament, General, Local Government and European Elections they would still need to hold a referendum in order to gain the mandate to seek independence.
At the very least, what you can probably agree on is that voting for the SNP is quite likely to lead either to demands for a referendum or a referendum itself.
Whilst it might be possible to find other reasons to vote for them (not least due to the state of Labour), they are currently not the party for voters who wish to avoid the distractions and risks and antagonisms of referendums and who just wish to continue with the devolution status quo.
I'm sure you're right, UKIP is a case in point.
backontrack
Established Member
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/168781 is a petition for IndyRef2.
That I agree with, and it seemed a small price to pay for a (comparatively) progressive government.
overthewater
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The reason the SNP win the last election was the meltdown of Scottish labour, and its failure to pick it self back up. The other BIG problem for Scottish Labour is its voters: Basiclicy there split right down the middle.... So the pro unionist voters back the Tories because there got fed up. While the pro indy people went to the SNP. While everyone in the middle who just wants everything else to get sorted like Roads, trains, health, education, police gets screwed.
Anyways I like this: I be dam if I take the euro...
The following photo is of EU, has man walking who is Jean-Claude Juncker ( with is mouth WIDE Open) holding a lead to a dog and the dogs Face is Nicola Sturgeon and in her mouth is the flag of scotland.
Anyways I like this: I be dam if I take the euro...
The following photo is of EU, has man walking who is Jean-Claude Juncker ( with is mouth WIDE Open) holding a lead to a dog and the dogs Face is Nicola Sturgeon and in her mouth is the flag of scotland.
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Here's a well informed, reasoned, intellectual discourse from a skilled orator about the new Scottish referendum. Clicky.
Warning: Video most definitely not safe for work, or for anyone with delicate ears. I can't even post the title of the video or I'll get banned.
Warning: Video most definitely not safe for work, or for anyone with delicate ears. I can't even post the title of the video or I'll get banned.
overthewater
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What that man fails to get is the turnout was much much higher for the Scottish ref, compared to the EU. Its like talking cheese and biscuits. I still believe a good number of people voted to stay in the EU, to get this second vote. There are plenty of SNP people who dislikes the EU just as much as tories.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Aww, it really was good fun too. 
Here's a mirror, an abbreviated version unfortunately but you'll get the general idea. Once again, I stress this is not safe for work.
Here's a mirror, an abbreviated version unfortunately but you'll get the general idea. Once again, I stress this is not safe for work.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
I like how he's referring to a script but trying not to make it obvious.
I love haggis!
I love haggis!
PaulLothian
Member
Among the reasons why the SNP won the last election was the fact that they are reasonably competent - not necessarily brilliant, but sound compared with the Westminster Government. These are, despite the way things are reported by the main-stream media, attributes that seem to go down well with many Scots. "I kent his faither" can still occasionally be heard about someone who is apparently getting above himself. I am still waiting to hear "I kent her faither" about Nicola Sturgeon!
Worth noting that the SNP won a substantially higher proportion of constituency votes at Holyrood than the Conservatives did in the UK parliamentary elections.
Labour's demise in Scotland is in many ways regrettable - I know a few Labour politicians with integrity and values that I would respond to, and would consider voting for again, if the UK and Scottish Labour parties generally held those values. Sadly, their aligning themselves closely with the Tories rather than with a broadly social-democratic SNP will keep Labour away from power in Scotland for a long time.
Trog
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overthewater
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RichmondCommu
Established Member
In all fairness I don't think that anyone is suggesting that it isn't.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
However roughly 50% of Scots appear to be keen to be part of a United Kingdom.
Personally I hope that given the opportunity Scots do indeed vote for independence but I get the feeling that perhaps 48% of the population would be very unhappy with that decision. Which of course is rather like the Brexit vote.
If I were PM I'd insist on at least a 2:1 vote (so 67%) in favour of a change of such magnitude. I suspect that wouldn't go down well with her hypocritical "we should leave this union" stance
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