Tornado tested at 100 mph overnight

hexagon789 · 12 Apr 2017

The A4-hauled Glasgow-Aberdeen expresses of 1962-66 were quite well known for fairly sprightly running. Much of the route is quite hilly, the notable exception being the now closed Strathmore line between Stanley and Kinnaber Junctions via Forfar which was flat and straight save for the curve through Forfar itself. The Forfar-Perth stretch was quite tightly timed 32.5 miles in 32 mins non-stop (60.9 mph). I have seen several logs of trains running at 80 mph plus even when on time, but the best has to be a run where speeds of over 85 mph were maintained for 18 miles with two peaks of 92 mph, including one through Coupar Angus station. The booking was slashed from 32 mins to 27 mins 32 seconds. The stretch from Perth to Stirling also usually produced 80 mph, particularly downhill through Dunblane. These high speeds of 80 mph and more are notable for being in excess of the 75 mph ceiling on the Scottish Region which lasted until the upgrade of the Edinburgh to Glasgow line in 1972. Deputisations by A1s and A2s even on the two three-hour turns in either direction were also quite capable of pushing 80 mph and the odd-substitution by a Stanier Five (as they were always referred to by Scottish crews) were also able performers.

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Spartacus · 12 Apr 2017

QueensCurve said:
Even more kudos to the drivers who drove trains with no speedometer and no lineside speed limit boards - having to know all the limits and turnouts and judge compliance.

There's a few reports of when locos were fitted with speedos that the trains they hauled began to lose time. It was discovered that train crews had a tendency to underestimate the speeds they were doing in the absence of a speedo.

jmcg · 12 Apr 2017

https://www.facebook.com/BBCLookNorthYorkshire/videos/10155257515554626/

What an amazing sight to see... 60163 has set a new precedent... surely this will pave the way for a higher speed limit for steam loco's?

Bornin1980s · 12 Apr 2017

That was some achievement, especially with a 90 ton dead weight at the rear. I mean, would be possible to supply train power with something lighter, like a 68, a generator coach, or an HST power car.

70014IronDuke · 12 Apr 2017

Deepgreen said:
If the load was 8 coaches (say 30 tons each) and a loco, then the load was more like 320+ tons - still not heavy but substantial. Roughly equivalent to 11 coaches.

Apologies, I misunderstood the OP. I hadn't realised he'd meant 'hauling' a locomotive.

Actually, I'd imagine it was more than your estimation in that case - as a lot of the Mk !s that i've seen still in use use Commonwealth bogies, I'd assumed 35 tons per carriage, not 30. (and surely even the early Mk 2s were still 32 tons).

If the trailing locomotive weighs in at 80 tons, I'd put the trailing load at closer to 335-340 tons. And that is starting to get heavy for a high-speed run with steam. Certainly not featherweight.

70014IronDuke · 12 Apr 2017

AM9 said:
There were some reports about in the late '50s/early '60s when Britannias went through Diss in the nineties. With 9 or 10 coach mixed bags of gresley bogies and MkIs with BR1s, the load certainly wouldn't have unduly taxed the then pretty new standards over fairly level routes.

Yes, Diss was "the hot spot" on the GER - 90+ was certainly reached on numerous occasions over the years. However, I have made efforts to ascertain if an Britannia ever made it to 100 mph there, and drawn a blank. I'd be interested if you can find evidence to the contrary.

Spamcan81 · 12 Apr 2017

Bromley boy said:
https://youtu.be/IDlqHuEE50g

This video is around one year old and purports to show Tornado running at 100mph.

While it certainly looks like it could be 100mph, I imagine it can't be more than 75?

The video has been speeded up to look like 100.

70014IronDuke · 12 Apr 2017

46223 said:
I was on that and the top speed was somewhere in the mid 80's.

Were you? Well, as it happens, so was I - and I'm afraid I can't agree at all.

There was no way that Black 5 attained such a speed that night.

I didn't time it myself. I could accept it if someone said 72 or some such, but I remember reading in Railway World or some such the top speed was less than 70 mph. I'm pretty sure it was 68 mph.

Peter Mugridge · 12 Apr 2017

jmcg said:
surely this will pave the way for a higher speed limit for steam loco's?

Not really... the tours Tornado will be hauling after gaining 90mph certification will still be timed and booked for 75mph; the 90mph ability will only be used to recover late running where conditions and linespeeds permit it.

edwin_m · 12 Apr 2017

Peter Mugridge said:
Not really... the tours Tornado will be hauling after gaining 90mph certification will still be timed and booked for 75mph; the 90mph ability will only be used to recover late running where conditions and linespeeds permit it.

I'd have thought a railtour that advertised the intention of reaching 90mph would attract a fair few people at premium fares. Although they might have to refund the difference if the 90mph didn't happen on the day.

D1009 · 12 Apr 2017

70014IronDuke said:
Were you? Well, as it happens, so was I - and I'm afraid I can't agree at all.
There was no way that Black 5 attained such a speed that night.

I didn't time it myself. I could accept it if someone said 72 or some such, but I remember reading in Railway World or some such the top speed was less than 70 mph. I'm pretty sure it was 68 mph.

I was on that train as well, there were some runs on that train before the end with speeds in the 70s or possibly low 80s, but the last run was nothing out of the ordinary, probably because of the publicity surrounding it.

edwin_m said:
I'd have thought a railtour that advertised the intention of reaching 90mph would attract a fair few people at premium fares. Although they might have to refund the difference if the 90mph didn't happen on the day.

We've already had that with Bittern, as I recall it reached 94 mph on one of its runs.

SpacePhoenix · 13 Apr 2017

Would going above 100mph (for any steam loco) raise the risk of con rods breaking exponentially for each 1mph above 100mph?

CosherB · 13 Apr 2017

SpacePhoenix said:
Would going above 100mph (for any steam loco) raise the risk of con rods breaking exponentially for each 1mph above 100mph?

Just where do you get your questions from? :roll:

AM9 · 13 Apr 2017

CosherB said:
Just where do you get your questions from? :roll:

Maybe somewhere in 'space', or from a bird that just keeps coming back.

reddragon · 13 Apr 2017

I wonder how fast Tornado could actually go, maybe down a bank with just a few coaches . . . Little Bytham springs to mind?

Engineer · 13 Apr 2017

Guess it will help ease paths if 90mph running allowed later. Does anyone know details of the interesting carriage rake allowed to run at this speed?

DarloRich · 13 Apr 2017

Engineer said:
Guess it will help ease paths if 90mph running allowed later. Does anyone know details of the interesting carriage rake allowed to run at this speed?

just a normal MKii rake as used on charters every weekend.

ac6000cw · 13 Apr 2017

As a bit of background, in BR days the Mk2s were cleared for 100mph, Mk1s with Commonwealth bogies (the ones with heavy-looking cast steel frames and coil springs) were also cleared for 100mph, and Mk1s with the earlier leaf-sprung bogies were normally good for 90mph (but could be a pretty lively ride at that speed!).

edwin_m · 13 Apr 2017

ac6000cw said:
As a bit of background, in BR days the Mk2s were cleared for 100mph, Mk1s with Commonwealth bogies (the ones with heavy-looking cast steel frames and coil springs) were also cleared for 100mph, and Mk1s with the earlier leaf-sprung bogies were normally good for 90mph (but could be a pretty lively ride at that speed!).

Getting off-topic, but some Mk1s also ran on B4 bogies and some of those ran in WCML 110mph formations. However Modern Railways commented at the time that Mk2s couldn't be cleared above 100mph for an unknown reason.

theageofthetra · 13 Apr 2017

ac6000cw said:
As a bit of background, in BR days the Mk2s were cleared for 100mph, Mk1s with Commonwealth bogies (the ones with heavy-looking cast steel frames and coil springs) were also cleared for 100mph, and Mk1s with the earlier leaf-sprung bogies were normally good for 90mph (but could be a pretty lively ride at that speed!).

What about that infamous 115mph run by a REP during testing of the third rail for Eurostar operations. I bet that was lively.

AM9 · 13 Apr 2017

theageofthetra said:
What about that infamous 115mph run by a REP during testing of the third rail for Eurostar operations. I bet that was lively.

It is probably more apochryphal that lively (or even alive).

ac6000cw · 13 Apr 2017

edwin_m said:
Getting off-topic, but some Mk1s also ran on B4 bogies and some of those ran in WCML 110mph formations.

I'd forgotten about those - full brakes and catering vehicles?

edwin_m said:
However Modern Railways commented at the time that Mk2s couldn't be cleared above 100mph for an unknown reason.

Just guesswork, but it could have been bodyshell resonant frequency issues causing poor ride at higher speeds - the sort of problem that led to the fitment of extra dampers at ends of the Mk4s.

70014IronDuke · 13 Apr 2017

ac6000cw said:
I'd forgotten about those - full brakes and catering vehicles? ...

The buffet-restaurants etc had BR5 bogies, didn't they?

AFAIR there were humble Mk1 TSOs (I think) fitted with BR4 bogies. (Or were they CKs? Or some of both? I know we had some on the Midland semi-fasts c 1973.

As for the full brakes -are you not getting them mixed up with the BKs that were a "special maintenance" jobs for 110 mph running on the LNW lines, when 110 mph was first introduced c 1973 or 74? Didn't they have Mk 1 bogies?

70014IronDuke · 13 Apr 2017

ac6000cw said:
As a bit of background, in BR days the Mk2s were cleared for 100mph, Mk1s with Commonwealth bogies (the ones with heavy-looking cast steel frames and coil springs) were also cleared for 100mph, and Mk1s with the earlier leaf-sprung bogies were normally good for 90mph (but could be a pretty lively ride at that speed!).

Mk1s with BR1 bogies were surely CLEARED for 90 mph running! (Whether they were good for it was another matter :

)

More importantly - are you saying here that Mk IIs on B4s are no longer cleared for 100 mph?

Oh, and the Commonwealth bogies were not 'heavy looking' - they were and are heavy! (although I'm sure you know that in any case).

ac6000cw · 13 Apr 2017

70014IronDuke said:
More importantly - are you saying here that Mk IIs on B4s are no longer cleared for 100 mph?

No, I'm not (I don't know what the current situation is with them, which is why I gave a historical perspective on the situation).

70014IronDuke said:
Mk1s with BR1 bogies were surely CLEARED for 90 mph running! (Whether they were good for it was another matter : )

Agreed - vivid memories of 'rockin'n'rollin' along the northern WCML behind an 86 hauled set of 'excursion grade'

Mk1s in the 1970s... (on a Birmingham - Edinburgh excursion)

CarltonA · 13 Apr 2017

SpacePhoenix said:
Would going above 100mph (for any steam loco) raise the risk of con rods breaking exponentially for each 1mph above 100mph?

Generally the harder you work a component the more likely it is to fail.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ata/file/410628/140616_R132014_Winchfield.pdf

Even on Tornado there will be deviations from the original engineering practice. What happened to Tangmere at Winchfield was possibly due to a decision to use a castellated nut instead of a plain one. They were only travelling at forty miles per hour at the time.

Bornin1980s · 14 Apr 2017

edwin_m said:
Getting off-topic, but some Mk1s also ran on B4 bogies and some of those ran in WCML 110mph formations. However Modern Railways commented at the time that Mk2s couldn't be cleared above 100mph for an unknown reason.

Is it that, the newer something is, the less adaptable it is?!

RichmondCommu · 14 Apr 2017

Given the successful Tornado run it will be interesting to see what the P2 is capable of doing given how powerful the design is. 110 mph?

STEVIEBOY1 · 14 Apr 2017

QueensCurve said:
Oh, well that's fine then.

Seriously thought the British railway seems at the moment to be embracing a return to steam. Gobackery akin to returning to blue passports, Imperial measures and £sd.

Sound good to me

In seriousness, I realise that fast running 90 - 100 mph would only be used occasionally as has been mentioned here, but would any other main line steam locos also be able / capable of this very fast running as and when required? I am thinking in Particular of Union of South Africa, Bittern, Sir Nigel, Flying Scotsman, Clan Line, Tangmere, The Duchess, Lizze, King Edward 1? any others?

D6975 · 14 Apr 2017

CarltonA said:
Generally the harder you work a component the more likely it is to fail.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ata/file/410628/140616_R132014_Winchfield.pdf

Even on Tornado there will be deviations from the original engineering practice. What happened to Tangmere at Winchfield was possibly due to a decision to use a castellated nut instead of a plain one. They were only travelling at forty miles per hour at the time.

If anyone wants to know what happens when the wheels go round too fast, look up the pics of Blue Peter after its 'accident' a few years ago.

edit 1994 - Durham

Tornado tested at 100 mph overnight

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