Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

Not quite related to the intricacies of GTR vs guards vs Joe Public, but this is worth a watch and a chuckle over. https://youtu.be/5OR9edcMKfM

The Darkness have done it again.

Not quite related to the intricacies of GTR vs guards vs Joe Public, but this is worth a watch and a chuckle over. https://youtu.be/5OR9edcMKfM

The Darkness have done it again.

59CosG95 said:

Not quite related to the intricacies of GTR vs guards vs Joe Public, but this is worth a watch and a chuckle over. https://youtu.be/5OR9edcMKfM

The Darkness have done it again.

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Aye, came to say the same thing. A few hundred flyers on peak hour services for a Christmas Number 1 campaign wouldn't go amiss!

tsr said:

Just a few technical corrections to that...

East Croydon has fortunately never seen driver-only dispatch using cameras, which would be extremely dangerous. It still retains a considerable quota of platform staff for dispatch of absolutely every passenger train. Although there are hazards associated with platform staff dispatch of DOO services, such as there being no competent second person onboard to act upon a hand danger signal once the train has started moving, it is not as dangerous as places on the network which have gone from platform staff + conductor to just DOO cameras (eg. Oxted, with 377 stock).

It is also worth adding that some of the shortest trains at East Croydon are the four-coach trains (from the affected platforms) which originate from Tonbridge, which are often worked by conductors, and which often end up with people running the furthest down the platform to where the train is positioned.

So this is not about destaffing railways or changing dispatch procedures in this instance, which is a nice change really.

The fact of the matter is that East Croydon has a very poor record when it comes to factors such as passengers trespassing, people running down platforms / steps / ramps and injuring themselves, and also people being struck by trains (GX drivers regularly drive trains through ECR significantly under linespeed for this reason).

A huge amount of time, money, manpower and effort has been put into this problem, some of which has been successful, despite the intransigence of passengers and the fact they are apparently not put off by the regular sights of broken limbs and people rolling down the ramps entangled in their suitcases. The blue lighting under the platforms is in the same vein as the frosted windows on the ramps (to prevent people seeing trains in platforms and running to get them) and the trial of staff on the ramps and platforms with megaphones and instructions to tell people off! The lights have actually been in place for a while, but had not been approved for use. The blue colour is also used at some stations to help prevent suicides, which seems to work, fortunately.

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Don't forget Dorking too.. :cry:

I've just heard from TL colleagues that as of Monday 25/09, ALL services north of Blackfriars (CTK-BDM) are now completely self despatch.. Apparently, despatchers are now "just coming out to watch", as has been common practice at ZFD and STP for many years. This is supposedly due to the full 700 fleet having entered pax service. So GTR now seem to think that a 12 car 700 can be more safely despatched by a single driver and many cameras than three platform staff (City Thameslink / Blackfriars)?!
If this is true then it is outrageous.. Anyone north of the river care to confirm?

This is the beginning of a much larger attack on safety critical grades and a seriously concerning decline in safety standards and practices...
:-x

Please Explain said:

This is the beginning of a much larger attack on safety critical grades and a seriously concerning decline in safety standards and practices... :-x

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Well of course it is, its the whole idea. They have got rid of the guard and now they are getting rid of dispatchers. The idea is to make it as cheap as chips to operate, but that will never reflect in your travel ticket. There has been a common analogy if you look at train fares, previously they were fairly cheap then there were hundreds of thousands of employees, now train fares are fairly expensive but jobs on the railway are now in the tens of thousands. So the more jobs you get rid of, the more the fares go up.

The TOCs only want one grade of safety critical staff >The Driver.

Despatch staff were got rid of at a number of Southern stations a while ago. The union did nothing because it wasn't their little darlings' jobs' on the line.

JamesTT said:

The union did nothing because it wasn't their little darlings' jobs' on the line.

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EVIDENCE please and who are the 'Little Darlings' you refer to?

Kings cross Thameslink/St prancras and Farringdon Thameslink station staff never dispatch the trains unless the Doo montors went down, anyway, next time I am at Blackfriars or City Thameslink I will have a look at the dispacth process.

Please Explain said:

Don't forget Dorking too.. :cry:

I've just heard from TL colleagues that as of Monday 25/09, ALL services north of Blackfriars (CTK-BDM) are now completely self despatch.. Apparently, despatchers are now "just coming out to watch", as has been common practice at ZFD and STP for many years. This is supposedly due to the full 700 fleet having entered pax service. So GTR now seem to think that a 12 car 700 can be more safely despatched by a single driver and many cameras than three platform staff (City Thameslink / Blackfriars)?!
If this is true then it is outrageous.. Anyone north of the river care to confirm?

This is the beginning of a much larger attack on safety critical grades and a seriously concerning decline in safety standards and practices...
:-x

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This is, sadly, correct. A ridiculous farce if you ask me and an accident waiting to happen, but TL drivers accepted the deal so it's on them now..

313103 said:

EVIDENCE please and who are the 'Little Darlings' you refer to?

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I believe he's referring to the guards..

To a certain extent I agree with him, RMT should by fighting EVERYONES corner in this, they -(Govia, the tories and Wilkinson) started all of this with the guards with the eventual aim to screw everyone over and cut the operating costs right down like you rightly say above and I believe the tories ultimately want to use this to justify outlawing and criminalise the trade union movement..
Ticket office and platform jobs are set to go next -see this "station host concept" BS which they will no doubt tell us all in due course that the trial period has been an overwhelming success and then roll it out with the closure of ticket offices to follow..
Actually, when they started picking on the ticket office staff, TSSA initially did very little about it for them and it was RMT who got more vocal with the respective "keep our ticket offices open" and "keep the guard on the train, keep the train safe" campaigns. Then Govia came right back with the most disgusting, demotivating, defamation campaign in a really LOW attempt to try and turn the traveling public against its own staff with those horrible ads they ran in the newspapers! Absolutely unforgivable...
They have not started with the bulk of the platform staff on Southern YET, as they know they have rattled two many cages with the guards, ticket offices and gateline staff for now.

As for: "Despatch staff were got rid of at a number of Southern stations a while ago."

I do know of one location in particular south of the river, where a number of people were taken on, on fixed term contracts from agencies to be "used" as a stop gap measure until all the 700's were delivered for despatching 319s at said location after many complaints from drivers about poor visibility when self despatching an 8-car 319 on the curved platform there.
A few of these "lucky" -(I don't think lucky is the correct word for anyone who has the misfortune of being employed by Gods Terrible Railway, below the grade of Driver..) individuals have been retained to fill some permanent vacancies at other locations. The rest of them had their contracts pulled last week...

The point i was trying to make about the TL situation is that I find it just unbelievable that they have managed to make TL North completely self despatch overnight and as far as I know, hardly anyone seems to have noticed and is even too bothered about it...
From what I heard, some of the staff involved were even happy about it -"oh, we have less work to do now!" E.g. No trains to despatch because the 700 cameras have effectively replaced you, but said individuals seem oblivious to the fact that the no1 function of their role -train despatch has just been taken away from them overnight, leaving them with just customer service duties and security checks etc. This will obviously lead to them losing their SC status and IMHO, ultimate removal, as we have seen with the guards becoming OBS's, the service can now operate without them and they are rendered dispensable. Everyone seen it coming a mile away, RMT have put their foot down for the Southern issues but in this new case of the TL North despatchers, no one seems to have noticed or be even remotely interested..

"Closure by stealth" comes to mind...

Out of interest from your avatar and display name 313103, did you previously work for Silverlink? I've always found that an interesting case in comparison to the current GTR saga.. Just how did London Overground manage to get rid of their guards without a battle with the RMT when they took over from Silverlink? Their drivers were obviously quite happy to lose their guards, with many becoming non-SC "customer ambassadors" who I believe now now customer service duties at London Overground stations. I know some also walked or went to other TOCs.
Did this all actually start several years ago with London Overground being used as the test bed to try this stuff out and then apply it to the rest of the network with Southern guards being the first big cull?

@superhands -(love the display name btw! Peep Show reference there by any chance?! )

City and Blackfriars are CD/RA. Well, City -(and everything north thereof) was until Monday. I wonder if they will go as far as removing the CD/RA equipment.. I believe there is no change at Blackfriars (at least for now anyway..).
Yes, Farringdon and St Pancras widened lines platforms have been self despatch for many years -(maybe even since day one of operation for the new St Pancras platforms, I can't speak for the old Kings X Thameslink, that was before my time, -almost ten years ago now!). But the staff there at the moment, still retain their SC status and would come down to CTK/BFR at least once every four weeks to despatch ten trains in order to maintain their despatch competency and do their rules.

Please Explain said:

Out of interest from your avatar and display name 313103, did you previously work for Silverlink? I've always found that an interesting case in comparison to the current GTR saga.. Just how did LOROL manage to get rid of their guards without a battle with the RMT when they took over from Silverlink? Their drivers were obviously quite happy to lose their guards, with many becoming non-SC "customer ambassadors" who I believe now now customer service duties at LOROL stations. I know some also walked or went to other TOC's.

Did this all actually start several years ago with LOROL being used as the test bed to try this stuff out and then apply it to the rest of the network with Southern guards being the first big cull?

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You would be correct to assume that i did work for Silverlink and its replacement London Overground.

London Overground got rid of their Guards quite easily because of many different reasons:
1. Some were not in a union,
2. Some wanted it,
3. Some were apathetic,
4. ASLEF agreed DOO was the default method of working from 1997,
5. When the RMT did do industrial action on London Overground the non union quota and those who crossed picket lines (including the one i was on) helped maintain a semblance of a service,
6. London Overground offered relative high walk away payments (especially when you take into account that 2013 was bad year in regards of salary,
7. I was thrown in at the deep end by having to take over as a rep when the secretary of the branch jumped ship and joined Aslef, so i had to report and take back to the union the wishes of the staff that they did not wish to continue with industrial action (this broke me on a personal level as it was the last time i would get an audience with Bob Crow, 6 months later he then passed away) i lost a lot of confidence over this issue, and i don't think i will get this back. I let many, many people down, some who i had known for 20 plus years.

I do not think the RMT was to blame, you could blame the lack of support from Aslef absolutely no support from them at all, you could blame TfL for pulling the rug under our feet, i personally feel that a lot was lost on the apathetic Guards who were employed and i think some had delusions of grandeur.

You are correct some stayed and became a grade created for DOO customer service roles (a role that was not properly thought out and major problems within those displaced Guards continue now some four years later), some left, some like myself moved to other tocs.

I believe we were the test bed for the others and as a result of the Guards on London Overground surrendering so easily, this as given the thumbs up for the companies to decimate the Guards grade completely and to get rid of dispatch staff easily.

I speak to many guards on ATW (where i am now) and they are very fearful of the future, most actually say that DOO will come in anyway so its pointless the union doing anything about it. The change of franchise will no doubt add DOO in the transcript.

It has been four years since i joined ATW and i fear for the future of my current grade as dispatcher, i do not feel i have long to go as the class 43s that currently keep me in employment will be withdrawn in the next year to 18 months and these new trains are designed without a guard or dispatcher in mind.

Sorry if i have waffled on but feel free to PM me as people are bored of me repeating this on the forum.

Cancellations on west coastway this morning due to 'shortage of station staff'.

Meanwhile my 07.19 from Bishopstone to Lewes was cancelled due to 'staff shortage', although one that - curiously - didn't prevent this train starting short, from Newhaven Harbour, and it had been on-time inbound.

I was referring to the decimation of platform staff on the coastway east and west routes about 10 years ago. How many strikes took place for those jobs?

JamesTT said:

I was referring to the decimation of platform staff on the coastway east and west routes about 10 years ago. How many strikes took place for those jobs?

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I dont know but you must as you wouldn't of mentioned it, but then at the time i could well of been one of those 'Little Darlings' you referred to up top, but as you havent answered that i dont know if you were referring to the guards or not or provided any information to authenticate that the station staff were shafted and that the RMT did nothing.

Yes I was referring to Guards. However I apologise that was a petty term to use.
Station's such as Worthing, Hove, Lewes and Eastbourne lost platform staff in favour of guard only despatch. At certain stations I cannot see how this was deemed safe. It smacks of a case that the guards jobs' were safe so they were alright jack

313103 said:

Well of course it is, its the whole idea. They have got rid of the guard and now they are getting rid of dispatchers. The idea is to make it as cheap as chips to operate, but that will never reflect in your travel ticket. There has been a common analogy if you look at train fares, previously they were fairly cheap then there were hundreds of thousands of employees, now train fares are fairly expensive but jobs on the railway are now in the tens of thousands. So the more jobs you get rid of, the more the fares go up.

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That does not follow. There are likely other factors that influence rail fares as well as cost of staff employment, which together have a much larger effect.

Just because two things happen together, does not mean one causes the other.

313103 said:

I dont know but you must as you wouldn't of mentioned it, but then at the time i could well of been one of those 'Little Darlings' you referred to up top, but as you havent answered that i dont know if you were referring to the guards or not or provided any information to authenticate that the station staff were shafted and that the RMT did nothing.

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Can the other point view be put on behalf of the public? Axing the North London & gospel oak barking(GOB) guards saved TfL over 2.5 million pounds a year. Remember, those unneeded guards had to be uniformed, pensioned, ,holidayed, managed etc. So DOO has saved the London taxpayers, many of whom earn less than an RMT guard, ten million pounds since ASLEF sensibly & decently agreed to operate all the London Overground lines DOO.

And what is the loss? Nothing.

The lines are as safe or safer than before, despatch is quicker & therefore more London Overground trains ran on time than under old fashioned guard operation & 313 & his long serving guard colleagues got payoffs, some of which were over £50,000. DOO is a win win everywhere. I will be castigated yet again for saying all this, but it is only momentumites who ideologically hate any kind of productivity improvement. If they ruled the roost we would still have second men making tea for the driver in every cab, & a man trotting ahead with a red flag.

Rail fares go up by RPI (or more), and the increase is not connected to the actual cost of manning trains (or anything else on the railway).
This has been government policy (all shades) pretty much since the early 2000s.
The stated aim is for passengers to pay more for the railway, and taxpayers less.
The unions know this perfectly well.

Please Explain said:

I
City and Blackfriars are CD/RA. Well, City -(and everything north thereof) was until Monday. I wonder if they will go as far as removing the CD/RA equipment.. I believe there is no change at Blackfriars (at least for now anyway..).

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Blackfriars is now DOO for 700 units.

ComUtoR do you still sign Bedford?
Just want to know if the platform staff still dispatch the 700.
I imagine both Luton and Bedford platform staff still dispatch East midlands, and St Albans have the ECS into the centre sdieings.
I do feel for the platform staff on Thameslink as it look like uncretan times, just like the ticket office staff.

Oh City Thameslink was self dispatch when I looked today.

JamesTT said:

Yes I was referring to Guards. However I apologise that was a petty term to use.
Station's such as Worthing, Hove, Lewes and Eastbourne lost platform staff in favour of guard only despatch. At certain stations I cannot see how this was deemed safe. It smacks of a case that the guards jobs' were safe so they were alright jack

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The staff themselves didn't fight so how could anyone else strike if they wouldn't ?

superhands said:

ComUtoR do you still sign Bedford?
Just want to know if the platform staff still dispatch the 700.
I imagine both Luton and Bedford platform staff still dispatch East midlands, and St Albans have the ECS into the centre sdieings.
I do feel for the platform staff on Thameslink as it look like uncretan times, just like the ticket office staff.

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Bedford is DOO for 700's

tony6499 said:

The staff themselves didn't fight so how could anyone else strike if they wouldn't ?

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Because it was kept almost quiet. There was a rumor and the next thing a notice went up. At most stations the staff remained, or went elsewhere. One at Worthing, who started as a cleaner, became a guard. Pat at Barnham remained on the platform and was a major asset. When he retired a few months ago, the loss is still being felt at the station.

tony6499 said:

The staff themselves didn't fight so how could anyone else strike if they wouldn't ?

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Were the staff balloted at the time, did the RMT and guards argue against potentially unsafe working practices.

As I said it smacks very much of I am alright jack from the point of view of the guards

JamesTT said:

Were the staff balloted at the time, did the RMT and guards argue against potentially unsafe working practices.

As I said it smacks very much of I am alright jack from the point of view of the guards

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We did argue, esp at lewes where the curves at platform 1&2 meant dispatching a 12 car train was impossible, and staff were kept on for that purpose. I'm not sure if they are still there as I don't work 377's, or when I do I have nothing to do with dispatch. The platform staff would have been members of the RMT and I'm sure discussions would have gone on. It only goes to ballot when they do not agree.

sarahj said:

Because it was kept almost quiet. There was a rumor and the next thing a notice went up. At most stations the staff remained, or went elsewhere. One at Worthing, who started as a cleaner, became a guard. Pat at Barnham remained on the platform and was a major asset. When he retired a few months ago, the loss is still being felt at the station.

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Thought I hadn't seen Pat in a while he was a legend

JamesTT said:

Were the staff balloted at the time, did the RMT and guards argue against potentially unsafe working practices.

As I said it smacks very much of I am alright jack from the point of view of the guards

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Yes unfortunately the RMT in recent times anyway only appear to want to put their heart and soul into campaigns that have potential to cause major disruption in the process, maybe that’s simply the reality of the modern world

sarahj said:

We did argue, esp at lewes where the curves at platform 1&2 meant dispatching a 12 car train was impossible, and staff were kept on for that purpose. I'm not sure if they are still there as I don't work 377's, or when I do I have nothing to do with dispatch. The platform staff would have been members of the RMT and I'm sure discussions would have gone on. It only goes to ballot when they do not agree.

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Sadly, it has spread to Lewes and platform staff are now not involved in dispatch at all*. They have been told to be on platform 2 between 06:00 and 09:00 for customer service duties (although, they tend to be present throughout the day for information on connections etc) and also have to be there for the 2 morning attachments and 1 evening detachment, but come the 2018 timetable, I predict that changes will happen...

*Occasionally, a 171 will terminate at Lewes vice Brighton due to late running. If this occurs on platforms 2 or 4, it needs to be dispatched by platform staff to Conductor against Group Position Lights 53 (platform 2) and 55 (platform 4). .

313103 said:

London Overground got rid of their Guards quite easily because of many different reasons:

I believe we were the test bed for the others and as a result of the Guards on London Overground surrendering so easily, this as given the thumbs up for the companies to decimate the Guards grade completely and to get rid of dispatch staff easily.

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This article is another view on what happened with London Overground: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/11/16/rail-n16.html

Most LO conductors are represented by the Rail Maritime and Transport Workers Union (RMT). The unions’ general secretary, Stalinist Bob Crow, declared the job cuts were only a “taste of what’s to come” and no part of the transport system would “remain unscathed,” after which the RMT deployed its highly polished mechanism of sabotage and betrayal used to suppress hundreds of strikes since the privatisation of the rail industry in 1997.

When attacks are announced, RMT officials feign shock, then declare an all-out struggle is required, usually securing a massive yes in a ballot for strike action...

...On October 14, Crow called off the strikes after LO agreed there will be “no compulsory redundancies”. Accepting the elimination of the conductor grade, Crow added that the salaries of conductor members “will be protected”. LO’s overall plan to introduce driver-only operated trains will not be opposed by the RMT, with Crow stating, “I can confirm that the issue of the safety validation is due to be finalised in mid November and LO will go DOO on its North and West London lines by no later than the 8th December 2013.”

DOO is presented as inevitable, and the RMT has confronted workers with two options—redundancy or transfer out of the grade. The RMT’s collaboration in eliminating the conductor grade exposes once more the fraud of the RMT and the Trades Union Congress’s campaign against the recommendations of Sir Roy McNulty commissioned by the last Labour government and adopted by the Conservative-led coalition...

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Unfortunately we can't trust the unions to always be 100% truthful with members and that will be true for any of the disputes happening