Doors released early at St Neots (20/10)

greaterwest · 21 Oct 2017

Looks like 1P96, the 1807 King's Cross to Peterborough had an early door release at St Neots last night, with my sources telling me the driver was only a trainee. It was a class 365, 3 and a half coaches off the platform edge (almost an entire unit) so wouldn't the pax have been better off pulling the passcom as opposed to alighting the train off the end of the platform?

Here is a video posted on social media; https://twitter.com/mattsydes/status/921434411526250496

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Lrd · 21 Oct 2017

What's more surprising is that the driver didn't see what was going on and close the doors and make a pa...

SpacePhoenix · 21 Oct 2017

If the 365s have a TMS, does it display how many doors (and in what coaches) have been released?

TEW · 21 Oct 2017

SpacePhoenix said:
If the 365s have a TMS, does it display how many doors (and in what coaches) have been released?

I would not have thought that 365s have a TMS. They don't have an SDO system anyway. It's either all doors released or none.

High Dyke · 21 Oct 2017

Of more concern is that the driver didn't report the incident to the signaller until the train reached Huntingdon. AFAIK the station staff at St Neots advised the signaller before the next train passed through the station.

theking · 21 Oct 2017

Surely the di would have done something if it was a trainee.

Monty · 21 Oct 2017

theking said:
Surely the di would have done something if it was a trainee.

Indeed, if this is the case i expect the incident has been reported and will be thoroughly investigated.

Bromley boy · 21 Oct 2017

High Dyke said:
Of more concern is that the driver didn't report the incident to the signaller until the train reached Huntingdon. AFAIK the station staff at St Neots advised the signaller before the next train passed through the station.

Out of interest, where did you get that from? It's a serious allegation.

It seems very hard to imagine that a driver wouldn't report a stop short/release when passengers have exited the train. Let alone a DI with a trainee.

najaB · 21 Oct 2017

Bromley boy said:
It seems very hard to imagine that a driver wouldn't report a stop short/release when passengers have exited the train. Let alone a DI with a trainee.

It does sound a little suspect...

greaterwest · 21 Oct 2017

Bromley boy said:
Out of interest, where did you get that from? It's a serious allegation.

Somebody posted the control log for it.

https://www.facebook.com/craig.johnston.144/posts/1576085459105067

Attached is the photo uploaded by Craig Johnston

Bromley boy · 21 Oct 2017

greaterwest said:
Somebody posted the control log for it.

https://www.facebook.com/craig.johnston.144/posts/1576085459105067

Fair enough, thanks.

E_Reeves · 21 Oct 2017

I'm surprised people were actually jumping off the train

High Dyke · 21 Oct 2017

greaterwest said:
Somebody posted the control log for it.

https://www.facebook.com/craig.johnston.144/posts/1576085459105067

Bromley boy said:
Fair enough, thanks.

I'm so glad I don't do Facebook. It saves me getting myself in any bother...

Loop & Link · 21 Oct 2017

More shocking than the actual incident for me is that people are posting screenshots of the Control log (well the TDA text anyway) on Facebook. Stupidity at its finest.

theking · 21 Oct 2017

Profile of the person says they work at thr RMT..

Bromley boy · 21 Oct 2017

High Dyke said:
I'm so glad I don't do Facebook. It saves me getting myself in any bother...

Yep it's frightening how quickly stuff gets out.

Clearly there is justified cause for concern in this case, but you can imagine eg. a train evacuation being filmed and a clip put onto twitter alleging wrong doing.

It's very difficult to get context from a few seconds of video.

Loop & Link · 21 Oct 2017

theking said:
Profile of the person says they work at thr RMT..

Without getting into another debate on here, I am extremely against DOO (DCO, whatever) so I can understand why this is being highlighted in this case but to be posting confidential log items, big no-no from me.

HarleyDavidson · 21 Oct 2017

Loop & Link said:
Without getting into another debate on here, I am extremely against DOO (DCO, whatever) so I can understand why this is being highlighted in this case but to be posting confidential log items, big no-no from me.

Unless it's heavily redacted of course.

It also makes you wonder about the IQ factor of those on board who jumped onto the track. If the doors opened in front of me and there wasn't a platform there I wouldn't jump out, especially if there was another track there. Still a whole load of them got away with receiving "Darwin Awards" (This time)!

theironroad · 21 Oct 2017

How is doo operated on 365s at sno?

In cab camera? Platform camera? Mirror? Look back?

I dont know area but looks like a classic stop short, possibly 12 on 8 mark.

theironroad · 21 Oct 2017

HarleyDavidson said:
Unless it's heavily redacted of course.

It also makes you wonder about the IQ factor of those on board who jumped onto the track. If the doors opened in front of me and there wasn't a platform there I wouldn't jump out, especially if there was another track there. Still a whole load of them got away with receiving "Darwin Awards" (This time)!

Well it seems from RTT and station layout that the train was in platform 1 and the 6 foot was the width of platform 1&2 at the point they alighted. They've walked through the train to the nearest door to the platform being available very close to ramp, there's no 3rd rail. Tbh no one in that 7sec Twitter clip looks particularly stressed about it.

Having said that, I would really expect (and maybe someone did) pull a passcom to alert driver so that doors could close and draw forward.

theironroad · 21 Oct 2017

Loop & Link said:
Without getting into another debate on here, I am extremely against DOO (DCO, whatever) so I can understand why this is being highlighted in this case but to be posting confidential log items, big no-no from me.

I do wonder who the 'they' he refers to in his Facebook post? Is it the driver and drivers grade in general or the TOC management wishing to remove guards?

Sirgerbil · 21 Oct 2017

Something doesn't add up correctly...I don't see how a DI would miss this happening and not intervene?

Bromley boy · 21 Oct 2017

theironroad said:
Well it seems from RTT and station layout that the train was in platform 1 and the 6 foot was the width of platform 1&2 at the point they alighted. They've walked through the train to the nearest door to the platform being available very close to ramp, there's no 3rd rail. Tbh no one in that 7sec Twitter clip looks particularly stressed about it.

Having said that, I would really expect (and maybe someone did) pull a passcom to alert driver so that doors could close and draw forward.

Yes indeed.

If platform monitors are used (and no passcom) it's conceivable the driver may not have been aware until being alerted later.

At some locations, where the camera angle is flush with the side of the train, it's impossible to see if any carriages are hanging out the back.

Platform staff wouldn't be involved in dispatch and may not have been anywhere near the cab in order to shout a warning.

Bromley boy · 21 Oct 2017

Sirgerbil said:
Something doesn't add up correctly...I don't see how a DI would miss this happening and not intervene?

Quite easily. In fact having more than one person in the cab increases distraction risk and potentially makes a mistake more likely.

Especially an insidious mistake where you're stopping at a station and opening doors, as expected. The DI needs to actively notice the train has been stopped at the wrong point before the doors are released.

One of the more high profile trap and drag incidents in recent years involved a trainee and DI.

Failed Unit · 21 Oct 2017

Loop & Link said:
More shocking than the actual incident for me is that people are posting screenshots of the Control log (well the TDA text anyway) on Facebook. Stupidity at its finest.

I guess it is just the simple fact people make mistakes. It isn’t the first time a guard has opened the doors wrong side. Actually feel sorry for the trainee having this whole incident so public.

Starmill · 21 Oct 2017

I particularly liked the bit where they note that the 1819 London KX > Newcastle passed through at line speed before the incident was reported!

Loop & Link · 21 Oct 2017

Failed Unit said:
I guess it is just the simple fact people make mistakes. It isn’t the first time a guard has opened the doors wrong side. Actually feel sorry for the trainee having this whole incident so public.

Not at all, i’m not having a go a DI/Trainee, mistakes happen, sadly this was a very public mistake.

My issue is people posting screenshots of the Control log, well it’s actually only the TDA text in this case.

Failed Unit · 21 Oct 2017

Loop & Link said:
Not at all, i’m not having a go a DI/Trainee, mistakes happen, sadly this was a very public mistake.

My issue is people posting screenshots of the Control log, well it’s actually only the TDA text in this case.

Agree. Leave the investigations internal. If anything needs to be made public then it should only be done by the correct channels.

This could be the only mistake either make in their career.

BestWestern · 21 Oct 2017

Failed Unit said:
I guess it is just the simple fact people make mistakes. It isn’t the first time a guard has opened the doors wrong side. Actually feel sorry for the trainee having this whole incident so public.

I don't think this incident involved either a Guard or a wrong side door release, though? But yes, it can happen anywhere. It is, however, far more common with DOO, for the reasons that Bromley boy mentions above.

najaB · 21 Oct 2017

Bromley boy said:
Quite easily. In fact having more than one person in the cab increases distraction risk and potentially makes a mistake more likely.

Though, that does make one question the utility of having a DI present. I'm not in the industry but it seems to me that the DI should distance themselves from the direct operation of the train and provide oversight precisely so that things like stopping points don't get missed. E.g. On approach to the station they ask "What stopping point board are you looking for?" and when stopped "What do you need to check before you release the doors?"

Doors released early at St Neots (20/10)

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