• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

30 years ago- the murder that ended the compartment carriages on SR

Status
Not open for further replies.

theageofthetra

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2012
Messages
3,506
A renewed appeal from my local police-

http://www.bromleytimes.co.uk/news/...ey-woman-30-years-after-it-happened-1-5447348
Debbie Linsley from Bromley - but living and working in Edinburgh at the time of her murder - was stabbed to death on the 14.16pm train from Orpington to London Victoria on Wednesday, 23 March 1988.

Police have said that detectives are still exploring ways to identify the suspect using DNA evidence.

She boarded the train at Petts Wood in south-east London and entered an old fashioned compartment with room for six people and doors at each side of the carriage.

The train arrived at platform 2 at Victoria railway station and at around 2.50pm, her body was discovered on the floor by British Rail staff.

A/DI Stansfield said: “It has been 30 years since Debbie was tragically murdered, but our efforts to trace the perpetrator continue.....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
When I started on BR, the unit involved was still in the shed at Grosvenor Sidings outside Victoria. There was police tape to cordon it off and fingerprint powder still visible.
It was always quite eerie being around it.
 

theageofthetra

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2012
Messages
3,506
I remember reading about that incident in a book. I think they limited non-corridor compartment stock to peak-time services only after that.
And our school train- despite our school issuing advice not to use the single compartments!
 

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
4,074
Location
Stockport
When I started on BR, the unit involved was still in the shed at Grosvenor Sidings outside Victoria. There was police tape to cordon it off and fingerprint powder still visible.
It was always quite eerie being around it.

Was it an EPB or a SUB type EMU, sorry to sound a bit pedantic but surely a compartment with side doors to each seating bay would have accommodated 10-12 rather than 6?
 

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
Was it an EPB or a SUB type EMU, sorry to sound a bit pedantic but surely a compartment with side doors to each seating bay would have accommodated 10-12 rather than 6?
I can't recall, I'm afraid. If I had to guess, I'd say an EPB.

EDIT - Having looked at pics of both types, it was an EPB. Wikipedia says SUBs had been withdrawn by this time.
 

eastwestdivide

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2009
Messages
2,551
Location
S Yorks, usually
Would have been an EPB by then, as the SUBs were long gone from the SE division, although the design of the compartments wasn't really any different between the two types.
The article probably meant to say "...compartment with room for six people each side and doors at each side...", and it got edited badly.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,928
Location
Nottingham
Didn't the remaining compartments get a green line above the doors (similar to the yellow line for first class) until withdrawal, so people would know to choose a different door when the train was quiet?
 

AY1975

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,759
Didn't the remaining compartments get a green line above the doors (similar to the yellow line for first class) until withdrawal, so people would know to choose a different door when the train was quiet?

It was a red line (even though that was the same colour used to denote buffet cars!). The remaining compartment Class 302s on the lines out of Fenchurch Street, and some outer suburban services from Liverpool Street, had that too, as did the one non-corridor compartment at the outer end of the DTC on some Class 205 "Thumper" DEMUs (which I think were the last non-corridor compartment vehicles in service on BR).
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,792
Location
Glasgow
It was a red line (even though that was the same colour used to denote buffet cars!). The remaining compartment Class 302s on the lines out of Fenchurch Street, and some outer suburban services from Liverpool Street, had that too, as did the one non-corridor compartment at the outer end of the DTC on some Class 205 "Thumper" DEMUs (which I think were the last non-corridor compartment vehicles in service on BR).

I think the un-connected compartment on the Thumpers was locked out of use at some point.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,018
Location
Yorks
I think the title of this thread is a bit misleading, as it was only non-corridor compartments that were progressively withdrawn as a result of this crime. Corridor compartments succumbed a lot later for different reasons.

Regarding the thumper compartments, I can remember travelling in the 205 ones on the Marshlink quite late in the 90's. I seem to think that they had a door onto the first class corridor (although the corridor didn't continue alongside that compartment). It's been a while since I've been on one though.

(I wait months and months for an EPB thread to come along, and when one does I'm at work )
 

theageofthetra

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2012
Messages
3,506
Didn't the remaining compartments get a green line above the doors (similar to the yellow line for first class) until withdrawal, so people would know to choose a different door when the train was quiet?
I don't recall our school train ones getting that- they were very old with the original string luggage racks.

Had iirc just two low wattage bulbs for lighting too- which naturally we used to unscrew in Sevenoaks tunnel.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,928
Location
Nottingham
It was a red line (even though that was the same colour used to denote buffet cars!). The remaining compartment Class 302s on the lines out of Fenchurch Street, and some outer suburban services from Liverpool Street, had that too, as did the one non-corridor compartment at the outer end of the DTC on some Class 205 "Thumper" DEMUs (which I think were the last non-corridor compartment vehicles in service on BR).
Yes that rings a bell. I must have dismissed it as nobody would have used the same colour as for buffets...
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,302
It was a red line (even though that was the same colour used to denote buffet cars!). The remaining compartment Class 302s on the lines out of Fenchurch Street, and some outer suburban services from Liverpool Street, had that too, as did the one non-corridor compartment at the outer end of the DTC on some Class 205 "Thumper" DEMUs (which I think were the last non-corridor compartment vehicles in service on BR).
BR also reformed the 4-EPB fleet so that all the compartment trailers were formed up as a pair of middle vehicles in the set (units renumbered as Class 415/5), with the plan being to keep these on peak hour workings only (presumably because there would be much less chance of single occupancy of a compartment as a result). They were then targeted as the first sets to be withdrawn.
 

theblackwatch

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2006
Messages
10,713
i can remember this event taking place, and the subsequent reformations as described by 43096, but I was unaware that this murder had never been solved. For some reason, I just assumed it had been.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,051
Location
Airedale
Yes that rings a bell. I must have dismissed it as nobody would have used the same colour as for buffets...
I don't think anyone would have been confused :)

Regarding the thumper compartments, I can remember travelling in the 205 ones on the Marshlink quite late in the 90's. I seem to think that they had a door onto the first class corridor (although the corridor didn't continue alongside that compartment). It's been a while since I've been on one though.

The original ones did, as they were built with 3 first class (19 seats), the end one later being declassified. In the later Berkshire batch the end compartment was a parcels compartment, and first seating was 13 (not 12 - the Southern wasn't known for wasting seating space.
The parcels compartment was later fitted with seating - according to SEMG when they were transferred to the Oxted line - but remained isolated, obviously.There's a photo of 027 somewhere in this thorough feature:
http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class205_01.html
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,018
Location
Yorks
I don't think anyone would have been confused :)



The original ones did, as they were built with 3 first class (19 seats), the end one later being declassified. In the later Berkshire batch the end compartment was a parcels compartment, and first seating was 13 (not 12 - the Southern wasn't known for wasting seating space.
The parcels compartment was later fitted with seating - according to SEMG when they were transferred to the Oxted line - but remained isolated, obviously.There's a photo of 027 somewhere in this thorough feature:
http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class205_01.html

Ah cheers. I think we had far more 'Hampshires' than 'Berkshires' round our way (The size of the headcode window being the giveaway).
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,018
Location
Yorks
BR also reformed the 4-EPB fleet so that all the compartment trailers were formed up as a pair of middle vehicles in the set (units renumbered as Class 415/5), with the plan being to keep these on peak hour workings only (presumably because there would be much less chance of single occupancy of a compartment as a result). They were then targeted as the first sets to be withdrawn.

Some were also opened out during refurbishment or swapped with withdrawn SUB trailers.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,787
Location
Herts
There was always an element of perceived risk in using them off peak - as you never knew who / what could occur - the Watford - Euston DC lines got rid of them first I believe- the level of vandalism in them in the 1970's was heroic - (on the DC) - kicked in ceiling panels , slashed seats etc....smoking of all kinds....
 

AY1975

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,759
I don't recall our school train ones getting that- they were very old with the original string luggage racks.

Had iirc just two low wattage bulbs for lighting too- which naturally we used to unscrew in Sevenoaks tunnel.

It depends which era you're talking about. Pre-1988, no, but I am fairly sure they all got red stripes pretty soon after this incident. That is, unless it was unit 5001, which was repainted into SR green. That was the one unit that kept its original formation until the end, with one saloon and one compartment trailer, and it was on the last public working, the 20.02 Charing Cross-Dartford via Sidcup on 31st March 1995, coupled to the BR blue unit 5176 (which I was on!).

Funny you should mention about unscrewing the light bulbs - I grew up in Putney, and went to secondary school in Richmond from 1986-91. By then the EPBs had all gone from the South Western Division, so I mostly travelled to school on 455s, but once I had a VEP, and travelled with some of my mates in the one standard class compartment which at that time still had reading lamps. After a while my mates started unscrewing the bulbs from those, and unfortunately planted one of them on me in a carrier bag full of ingredients that I had for a cookery lesson. I rummaged in my bag for it, and accidentally knocked it out onto the floor and broke it - not that I meant to do that, of course! But had I been only a few years older, they and I could have faced a painful visit to the headmaster or headmistress even if it was their fault not mine!
 

AY1975

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,759
i can remember this event taking place, and the subsequent reformations as described by 43096, but I was unaware that this murder had never been solved. For some reason, I just assumed it had been.

I don't know whether stations had CCTV in those days - trains (or at least 1950s/60s vintage trains!) certainly didn't. Solving any crime on railway property is much easier these days thanks to CCTV on trains and stations, and advances in DNA and facial recognition technology. Even so there's no guarantee that the suspect (and the right suspect at that) will be brought to justice.
 

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,136
There was always an element of perceived risk in using them off peak - as you never knew who / what could occur - the Watford - Euston DC lines got rid of them first I believe- the level of vandalism in them in the 1970's was heroic - (on the DC) - kicked in ceiling panels , slashed seats etc....smoking of all kinds....

Same stock was on the North London line......I seem to remember a number of on-train late night rapes being reported on them
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,787
Location
Herts
Same stock was on the North London line......I seem to remember a number of on-train late night rapes being reported on them

Yes - common pool of stock - the 501's (with bars on the windows) -on some off peak evening services, the middle trailer was locked out as they reckoned with a driver at the front and the guard at the end ,it was safer for lone travellers etc...yesterday , was not always so great.

Single compartments on the LT+S could be very unsavoury - not just the passengers , but what they left behind......
 

theblackwatch

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2006
Messages
10,713
I don't know whether stations had CCTV in those days - trains (or at least 1950s/60s vintage trains!) certainly didn't. Solving any crime on railway property is much easier these days thanks to CCTV on trains and stations, and advances in DNA and facial recognition technology. Even so there's no guarantee that the suspect (and the right suspect at that) will be brought to justice.

I too had been thinking that nowadays, with CCTV on stations, that it would be much more likely that someone would be identified nowadays. Hopefully the perpetrator of this crime will eventually be caught though.
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
14,829
Location
Epsom
Wasn't there a lot of suggestion in the press a few years ago that the murder was thought to have been the work of another criminal who was convicted for a number of other attacks on the railway in the same area around that time?

Can't remember the name now, but he did get a lot of coverage when he was locked up.
 

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
Wasn't there a lot of suggestion in the press a few years ago that the murder was thought to have been the work of another criminal who was convicted for a number of other attacks on the railway in the same area around that time?

Can't remember the name now, but he did get a lot of coverage when he was locked up.
Are you thinking of David Mulcahy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Duffy_and_David_Mulcahy
Duffy was convicted of 17 more rapes and received a further 12 years. Neither man is expected ever to be released from prison. Police suspect them of countless other sex attacks, some dating back to the mid-1970s, while Mulcahy is also suspected of attacks which took place after Duffy was jailed (my emphasis).
I would be extremely surprised if his DNA had not already been compared to that found at the scene of Debbie Linsley's murder. The fact that he hasn't been convicted of that suggests that he's not guilty.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,302
I would be extremely surprised if his DNA had not already been compared to that found at the scene of Debbie Linsley's murder. The fact that he hasn't been convicted of that suggests that he's not guilty.
I would expect they have done a comparison against the entire DNA database. There have been occasions where someone has been DNA tested for something completely different and it has matched against an historical record and the case solved as a result.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top