Don't know if this has been posted before but I'd be interested to know which depots get the most out of their crews (ie: time spent physically working a train) and which are the least productive (ie: lots of passing, long breaks, walking etc) I'm guessing the most productive must be metro depots around the major cities and the the least productive maybe rural depots with long turnaround times. Any thoughts or info anyone?
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Most and least productive traincrew depots
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craigybagel
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Not necessarily. At my own depot (a regional one), for both guards and drivers, one round trip of our core route, with a 1 hour turnaround to fit PNB and timetable requirements, plus booking on/off and walking time, takes around 8 1/2 hours. Given that's not very far off what our average day length should be, an awful lot of our jobs follow that pattern and apparently we are one of the most efficient depots at our TOC because of it.
godfreycomplex
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VTEC at Edinburgh must be up there.
Things have changed slightly since the Stirling terminator started, but aside for one double Newcastle job (clocking in at 9 hours 59, urgh) they’re mostly Edinburgh - Newcastle, break (sometimes up to 4 hours) and back, with a cameo appearance at Craigentinny.
There’s one job that is just Aberdeen to Edinburgh (about two hours forty) but that’s off a lodge at Aberdeen the previous night.
There’s also a Craigentinny-Waverley-Newcastle and pass (travel back as passenger) back, but that’s rather ruined by the 4am start...
Sounds like absolute bliss and is probably why there’s a bit of a queue to get in.
On the other scale; GTR at Selhurst and SWR at Wimbledon/lower links at Waterloo (amongst others) have notoriously long and punishing shifts so they might be the most “productive”
Things have changed slightly since the Stirling terminator started, but aside for one double Newcastle job (clocking in at 9 hours 59, urgh) they’re mostly Edinburgh - Newcastle, break (sometimes up to 4 hours) and back, with a cameo appearance at Craigentinny.
There’s one job that is just Aberdeen to Edinburgh (about two hours forty) but that’s off a lodge at Aberdeen the previous night.
There’s also a Craigentinny-Waverley-Newcastle and pass (travel back as passenger) back, but that’s rather ruined by the 4am start...
Sounds like absolute bliss and is probably why there’s a bit of a queue to get in.
On the other scale; GTR at Selhurst and SWR at Wimbledon/lower links at Waterloo (amongst others) have notoriously long and punishing shifts so they might be the most “productive”
306024
Established Member
Defining productivity isn’t as simple as it sounds. Time spent ‘holding the handle’ is one measure, but a suburban depot with lots of changing ends may not be as ‘productive’ under this measure than a depot that just works out and back.
Measuring unproductive time is arguably a better measure, i.e. once you have done all the things that you can’t do without, (e.g changing ends, preparation, walking, even perhaps travelling passenger) it’s the time left over that can’t be allocated to anything.
Measuring unproductive time is arguably a better measure, i.e. once you have done all the things that you can’t do without, (e.g changing ends, preparation, walking, even perhaps travelling passenger) it’s the time left over that can’t be allocated to anything.
irish_rail
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Most productive - Plymouth, we do London and back about 7 hours of actual driving sometimes more.
Least productive, Bristol who's jobs include passing to London to drive to Oxford and back or pass to London to drive back to Swindon etc etc.
Least productive, Bristol who's jobs include passing to London to drive to Oxford and back or pass to London to drive back to Swindon etc etc.
Shaw S Hunter
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The productivity of a depot's booked turns can vary from one timetable to the next as service changes can very quickly affect how efficiently turns can be put together. As such the OP's question can only have rather vague answers. The whole activity of duty and roster construction is something of a black art and even those directly engaged in it can sometimes struggle to find the "best" solutions. You can be sure that very few people not directly involved have more than a basic understanding and are therefore not terribly qualified to make judgements about how good or bad a particular planning office really is. Bean counters can certainly use all sorts of facts and figures to *try* to make such judgements but rarely do they understand all the issues involved.
In simple terms a depot at the end of a line with a relatively infrequent service may be more difficult to schedule efficiently compared with a depot based at a nodal point of a high frequency network but in the end services have to be crewed somehow. The introduction of flexible rostering in the 1980s was a significant advance in improving traincrew efficiency but short of extending maximum days beyond current limits and/or limiting the amount of paid break time it's difficult to see how much more can be squeezed out of traincrew turns.
In simple terms a depot at the end of a line with a relatively infrequent service may be more difficult to schedule efficiently compared with a depot based at a nodal point of a high frequency network but in the end services have to be crewed somehow. The introduction of flexible rostering in the 1980s was a significant advance in improving traincrew efficiency but short of extending maximum days beyond current limits and/or limiting the amount of paid break time it's difficult to see how much more can be squeezed out of traincrew turns.
I take the points above... To break it down - what I really meant was who does the most work and who does the least? Regarding turnarounds I really meant additional time on top of minimum changing ends time for that traction. So say it's 8 minutes minimum but the train sits there for 45 minutes and the crew have time to go out for a fag, grab a bite to eat and sit around for a bit then that's what I meant by unproductive time. If the train is due back out in ten minutes then I'd class that turnaround as all work. I'm not splitting hairs, just looking for a general idea.
craigybagel
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I wonder how many people would say the most productive depot is the one they work at, and the most cushy one is the one down the road? Not having a dig by the way, I know that's exactly how it is where I am - our two nearest neighbours are always arguing with us and each other about whose staff have it worse off!
Out of East Croydon I never spent more than 25 hours physically working timetabled trains, on a few weeks I worked less than 10 although 1 of those weeks was 4 night shifts with 2 6 hour rostered diagrams on it. Very frustrating giving up a nights sleep for 1 Three Bridges to Vic at 2am. Book on 10.30pm, pass on train to Brighton, sit at Brighton until 1.30ish, pass back to Three Bridges on an empty. Work the train from TBD to Vic, 1 hour TEB and then pass back to ECR arriving 4.30am
superhands
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It must be one of the London based TOC, I hear you get work hard at some of the Thameslink depots
I suppose it depends what you are used to. I owned a busy coffee shop and worked flat out for 70 hours a week so I would probably find the Thameslink diagrams a cakewalk.
306024
Established Member
Hair splitting is actually a good way of producing productivity figures - you’ve understood the basics correctly. The timetable and unit diagrams define the turnround time. So if for example you get a line speed increase which shortens journey times by a minute, then other things being equal turnround times at each end will increase by a minute. Suddenly those diagrams become less productive, although in reality nothing much has changed.
superhands
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Bedford used to have or still do have a 0210 start with around 40 or more stops Doo.
Dieseldriver
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How is that relevant? Sorry but we are discussing Train Driving, not working in a coffee shop. I have also worked in fast paced food making/serving environments, can be hard work. However, it doesn't include erratic and severe shift work, it doesn't involve high levels of responsibility, it doesn't require an intensive 12 to 18 month training course and it doesn't require anywhere near the knowledge/concentration that comes with Train Driving.
So when you want to comment on this thread just bear in mind that a fatigued Driver working an intensive diagram who makes an error faces much worse consequences than you if you get a coffee order wrong.
bramling
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You may think that, but it's hard to say until you've actually worked an intensive driving diagram. Lose concentration for a couple of moments and whoops I've just released the doors on the wrong side, forgot about a TSR, failed to call, stopped short, had a SPAD, or whatever. Train drivers can and do moan at times, and there are a lot of drivers (mainly those who haven't really done anything else) who would do well to see the wider world of work, however please don't let anyone think that potentially seven days of an intensive duty is a cakewalk - it really isn't.
Dieseldriver
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The other option could also be for Emmsie to put their money where their mouth is and actually try to become a Train Driver. Still genuinely amused that someone would compare Train Driving to making cups of coffee
whoosh
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A lot of Southern Metro turns are all work. Six minute turnarounds at each end, and bare minimum PNBs with not much on top of the walking time to reach the messroom.
On top of that, there are a great many risks of stopping right up against the signal with it out of sight at a lot of the stations, and risk of wrong routing at the many junctions. Lose a few minutes and the delay knocks on all day.
Those guys work hard.
Intercity drivers as well - the turnarounds are longer, but over 7 hours of driving in a day, going over 500 miles is hard work as well but in a different way.
On top of that, there are a great many risks of stopping right up against the signal with it out of sight at a lot of the stations, and risk of wrong routing at the many junctions. Lose a few minutes and the delay knocks on all day.
Those guys work hard.
Intercity drivers as well - the turnarounds are longer, but over 7 hours of driving in a day, going over 500 miles is hard work as well but in a different way.
Having a look at the new GTR services you are looking at Rainham to Luton all stations taking two and a half hours, 12 minutes turnaround in the platform (IF it's on time) then all stations back again. Presumably needs a crew change though at some point though. Orpington- Lutons get 10 mins at Luton, Orpington - Kentish Towns get EIGHT minutes at Kentish Town. And then of course there's the Sutton loops.
ugh wouldn't fancy driving that
But the work is very unproductive. The trip is intense but the diagram is unproductive.
Eccles1983
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Kirkby to blackburn via man vic.
2hr 27 mins if on time (never) with a 8 min turnaround. And then straight back to man vic.
All in all 4 hours driving with a few minutes to change ends.
Apologies but I didn't make clear that I was an OBS, I can appreciate that its different for a driver.
Dieseldriver
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You weren't talking about OBS in the comment I quoted though. You were trying to belittle the very real challenges that Drivers face on an intensive diagram because you have worked long hours in a coffee shop. Have you stopped to think that the reason you were able to successfully work those long hours were because your job didn't require your full attention, didn't carry much responsibility and didn't have anywhere near the repercussions if you got it slightly wrong?
As a Train Driver I genuinely wouldn't want to do a 70 hour week of driving because I don't think I would be capable of getting to the end of it without being off track for a/several Safety Of the Line incident (s).
..of course they are the same. They both involve pulling handles and pushing buttons don't they?
My comment was purely based on the role of the OBS as that was my experience. As I said in my other post I appreciate that it would be a lot different for a driver. I am also a qualified pilot and totally appreciate the concentration needed and would certainy not want to fly for 70 hours a week for the same reasons that you give as a driver.
Inverness to Wick is over 4 hours in the cab. Followed by a one hour pnb & over 4 hours continuous driving back to Inverness.
But this gruelling duty is balanced by jobs later in the week towards Aberdeen & Glasgow with less than 4 hours driving per day in total.
But this gruelling duty is balanced by jobs later in the week towards Aberdeen & Glasgow with less than 4 hours driving per day in total.
WCMLaddict
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Just wait for our new Vic - Leeds - Southport - Vic from May timetable change...
Don’t think you can actually say there are least or most productive Depots.
Every depot has jobs that are tight on time, bare minimum PNBs, or long hours in the chair, multiple and monotonous trips, duties that have multiple traction’s...however it does swing & roundabouts. I’m sure where we get 9:30-10hr days but depots can get (on a very rare occasion) 6hr duties and days were you sit spare/cover and not pick up anything.
Every depot has jobs that are tight on time, bare minimum PNBs, or long hours in the chair, multiple and monotonous trips, duties that have multiple traction’s...however it does swing & roundabouts. I’m sure where we get 9:30-10hr days but depots can get (on a very rare occasion) 6hr duties and days were you sit spare/cover and not pick up anything.
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