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Last call for the Charing Cross to Gillingham via Woolwich semi fasts

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Joe Paxton

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So apparently the Medway residents are lobbying KCC (Kent County Council) on the Medway Thameslink service, I have written a letter to the Rochester and Strood MP, Kelly Tolhurst, hoping to get a response but since the there seemed to be little political lobbying in not having the Thameslink im not holding out hope, though because of the fiasco maybe minds will be changed.

I'd hope they are lobbying Medway Council, as since 1998 the Medway area has been under the administrative control of said unitary authority, having ceased to be part of the Kent administrative county.
 
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NorthKent1989

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I'd hope they are lobbying Medway Council, as since 1998 the Medway area has been under the administrative control of said unitary authority, having ceased to be part of the Kent administrative county.

Sorry, seven years down here and I still forget that :D :D

I just lump it all with Kent county council
 

DynamicSpirit

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It all seems so subjective in terms of the perceived hierarchy between the three lines. I always thought the Bexleyheath line was the busiest and most important, as it had Blackheath (as did the Gillingham granted), and was the chosen route for Victoria trains too - but in recent years the Woolwich line has had two DLR links added - and Crossrail obviously will be a game changer. Not to mention (in my lifetime) Bluewater killing off the shopping and overall centre status of Bexleyheath pretty thoroughly.

That surprises me. I don't know what Bexleyheath town centre was like before Bluewater, but today it looks to me like a largish, very pleasant, and thriving centre. I go there a couple of times a month and it's always busy in my experience. I'd say the problem from the point of view of trains is that the Bexleyheath line doesn't actually go anywhere near the town centre, so very few people are going to choose to use the train to go shopping there. It's the same problem at Eltham, and I'd say is a big part of the reason why the Woolwich line is busier: Woolwich Arsenal station is right in Woolwich town centre, and Greenwich station isn't that far from Greenwich centre.

There is also now, I feel, no need for peak or off-peak trains between Blackheath and Charlton. To be honest, the local bus network is such that if you are going from Kidbrooke or Eltham to Charlton or Woolwich it is easily done; and in the unlikely event you are going from Lewisham to all stations via Woolwich you can just go to Greenwich on the DLR. The passenger figures for point-to-point journeys, one assumes, are exceptionally low and hardly worth the added difficulty of pathing those services. As well as that, if you're in Blackheath, the 108 runs every 9-10 minutes to Westcombe Park and takes 8 minutes; so if the reward at the other end was a continuous 8tph from Cannon Street down to Dartford/Barnehurst/Crayford via Woolwich you'd hardly be in S**t Street.

I would disagree for two reasons: Firstly, pricing. If you're using Oyster pay-as-you-go, then getting a bus even for 10 minutes adds £1.50 for a 1-way journey, and £3 for a return journey. That's a huge disincentive for people to do a part-bus part-train journey. Similarly if you want to get to Lewisham by doing train to Greenwich then DLR, you'll wind up paying more on Oyster because you'll have to pay a combined tube/national rail fare instead of a pure national rail fare. That could of course be solved if TfL and the TOCs got their act together on integrated Oyster fares, but there's no sign of that happening. And even if they did, you'd have the problem that the poorer reliability of buses would make a lot of rail users reluctant to use them.

The other reason the direct Lewisham-Woolwich trains are useful is for people wanting onward connections at Lewisham. As an example, I often travel Abbey Wood-Nunhead. Changing at Lewisham, that's perfectly doable and reasonably convenient. but if I had to change at Greenwich as well then the journey starts to look much less convenient, and also becomes much more awkward for timing: The Lewisham-Nunhead trains only go every half hour, and if I have to factor in the uncertainty of how long I need to wait at Greenwich into my calculations of whether I'll make the connection at Lewisham, I'm going to have to add more padding to my journey. Lewisham has trains only half-hourly to a lot of destinations, so I imagine people going to a lot of other places would have similar issues if there were no Woolwich-Lewisham trains. Obviously not a disaster, but does show that those trains do serve a purpose.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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On a slight tangent... It's just occurred to me how many London terminals you'll be able to get to from Abbey Wood once Crossrail is running. Direct trains to London Bridge, Cannon Street, Waterloo (East), Charing Cross, Blackfriars, St. Pancras today, and Liverpool Street and Paddington get added in December for a total of 8 terminals. (Not including Farringdon or City Thameslink as I'm not sure if they count as London terminals). Can any other station beat that!
 

NorthKent1989

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That surprises me. I don't know what Bexleyheath town centre was like before Bluewater, but today it looks to me like a largish, very pleasant, and thriving centre. I go there a couple of times a month and it's always busy in my experience. I'd say the problem from the point of view of trains is that the Bexleyheath line doesn't actually go anywhere near the town centre, so very few people are going to choose to use the train to go shopping there. It's the same problem at Eltham, and I'd say is a big part of the reason why the Woolwich line is busier: Woolwich Arsenal station is right in Woolwich town centre, and Greenwich station isn't that far from Greenwich centre.



I would disagree for two reasons: Firstly, pricing. If you're using Oyster pay-as-you-go, then getting a bus even for 10 minutes adds £1.50 for a 1-way journey, and £3 for a return journey. That's a huge disincentive for people to do a part-bus part-train journey. Similarly if you want to get to Lewisham by doing train to Greenwich then DLR, you'll wind up paying more on Oyster because you'll have to pay a combined tube/national rail fare instead of a pure national rail fare. That could of course be solved if TfL and the TOCs got their act together on integrated Oyster fares, but there's no sign of that happening. And even if they did, you'd have the problem that the poorer reliability of buses would make a lot of rail users reluctant to use them.

The other reason the direct Lewisham-Woolwich trains are useful is for people wanting onward connections at Lewisham. As an example, I often travel Abbey Wood-Nunhead. Changing at Lewisham, that's perfectly doable and reasonably convenient. but if I had to change at Greenwich as well then the journey starts to look much less convenient, and also becomes much more awkward for timing: The Lewisham-Nunhead trains only go every half hour, and if I have to factor in the uncertainty of how long I need to wait at Greenwich into my calculations of whether I'll make the connection at Lewisham, I'm going to have to add more padding to my journey. Lewisham has trains only half-hourly to a lot of destinations, so I imagine people going to a lot of other places would have similar issues if there were no Woolwich-Lewisham trains. Obviously not a disaster, but does show that those trains do serve a purpose.

Barnhurst Is nearer to Bexleyheath town centre than Bexleyheath itself, its rather misleading in a way.

I suspect the line became much busier in the 70s when the Ferrier Estate was first built in Kidbrooke.

I also think in the old days at least it was a snob factor as to why the Woolwich line was buiser after all Greenwich, Blackheath, Shooters Hill/Woolwich Common were and still nice leafy suburban areas, along with Upper Belvedere for Erith which used to have some fasts stop there occasionally.
 

Mikey C

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In terms of serving major shopping areas, the 96 bus does a better job than the rail lines! The centre of Woolwich, Welling, Bexleyheath and Dartford plus Bluewater. Throw in Darent Valley hospital as well
 

4-SUB 4732

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Barnhurst Is nearer to Bexleyheath town centre than Bexleyheath itself, its rather misleading in a way.

I suspect the line became much busier in the 70s when the Ferrier Estate was first built in Kidbrooke.

I also think in the old days at least it was a snob factor as to why the Woolwich line was buiser after all Greenwich, Blackheath, Shooters Hill/Woolwich Common were and still nice leafy suburban areas, along with Upper Belvedere for Erith which used to have some fasts stop there occasionally.

As a resident of Barnehurst, I can confirm! The bus service is almost as good, as well, for those who are less able to do the walk from either Bexleyheath or Barnehurst stations.

With all of this malarkey in the Bexley Council grand plan with a DLR to Belvedere and a potential for some sort of ‘bus track’ between Bexleyheath and other key locations in the borough to encourage more public transport, who knows what Bexleyheath and Bexley borough will look like in 20 years...
 

NorthKent1989

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In terms of serving major shopping areas, the 96 bus does a better job than the rail lines! The centre of Woolwich, Welling, Bexleyheath and Dartford plus Bluewater. Throw in Darent Valley hospital as well

Also Crayford, pretty certain that's a sizable town center, there was a proposal years ago to extend the 96 to Blackheath Royal Standard & North Greenwich, oddly enough Charlton would've been the better route than Blackheath R.S. But the fact that the 96 would run fast to North Greenwich via the A102 was a draw, the proposal was ditched of course.

As a resident of Barnehurst, I can confirm! The bus service is almost as good, as well, for those who are less able to do the walk from either Bexleyheath or Barnehurst stations.

With all of this malarkey in the Bexley Council grand plan with a DLR to Belvedere and a potential for some sort of ‘bus track’ between Bexleyheath and other key locations in the borough to encourage more public transport, who knows what Bexleyheath and Bexley borough will look like in 20 years...

Yes Bexley does have rather grand schemes in mind which is good but some are ludicrous, I doubt a DLR to Belvedere will happen because a quicker route to the Docklands is one stop away soon, they also want the Gospel Oak to Barking line to be extended to Thamesmead or Abbey Wood with services being extended westward to Clapham Junction basically a rail version of the North Circular Road

The tube map will be extremely different in 10 years time, nevermind 20 years :D
 

Joe Paxton

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Local councils public transport wish lists can sometimes be distinctly aspirational, to use diplomatic language!
 

387star

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Do southeastern historically run doo services as far as rainham /Maidstone
 

NorthKent1989

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Just thought I'd let people know that the Medway Thameslink route is not running at all, luckily I'm staying at a mates in town this weekend but GTR should be stripped of their franchise immediately!

Its a shoddy and c**ppy way to treat paying customers and station staff quite frankly, just wait until the Maidstone to Cambridge service is rolled out.....if ever!
 

Class465fan

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Just thought I'd let people know that the Medway Thameslink route is not running at all, luckily I'm staying at a mates in town this weekend but GTR should be stripped of their franchise immediately!

Its a shoddy and c**ppy way to treat paying customers and station staff quite frankly, just wait until the Maidstone to Cambridge service is rolled out.....if ever!
Thank god i won't be having to travel with them this weekend. Entire thing is in complete shambles.
 

NorthKent1989

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Thank god i won't be having to travel with them this weekend. Entire thing is in complete shambles.

Heard a classic conversation at London Bridge, someone said to his mate, who was explaining the Rainham service and the Sidcup fasts “your telling me that Gravesend gets the fast trains now but Gillingham which is further out has the stoppers?” To which his mate said yes, he then replied “they’re f***ing cracked in the head then mate” I had to stifle a laugh :D :D
 

Bromley boy

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“they’re f***ing cracked in the head then mate”

Difficult to disagree with this.

This weekend GTR moves have been diagrammed over lines which are not open. Drivers have not been given proper diagrams and no timings/calling patterns in some cases.
 

ComUtoR

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Drivers have not been given proper diagrams and no timings/calling patterns in some cases.

Initially I was upset, then just frustrated, then got wound up when my train didn't turn up, then just found it funny. Didn't drive a single train today :)
 

NorthKent1989

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Quite why it is deemed necessary for 6tph off-peak via Sidcup is very much beyond me; much the same as why it is deemed appropriate to so very badly damage the 10-minutely service that went all stops via Woolwich and Greenwich which people really found very useful. The new 'compromise' is, well, c**p.

There is also now, I feel, no need for peak or off-peak trains between Blackheath and Charlton. To be honest, the local bus network is such that if you are going from Kidbrooke or Eltham to Charlton or Woolwich it is easily done; and in the unlikely event you are going from Lewisham to all stations via Woolwich you can just go to Greenwich on the DLR. The passenger figures for point-to-point journeys, one assumes, are exceptionally low and hardly worth the added difficulty of pathing those services. As well as that, if you're in Blackheath, the 108 runs every 9-10 minutes to Westcombe Park and takes 8 minutes; so if the reward at the other end was a continuous 8tph from Cannon Street down to Dartford/Barnehurst/Crayford via Woolwich you'd hardly be in S**t Street.

Yes Sidcup going 6tph is a mystery, by all means let Gravesend and Dartford have faster trains but I would have this service run fast from Dartford to London Bridge and it happens run via the Sidcup line, the Sidcup line can do well enough on 4tph, since non of the stations, except Hither Green (if you need Bromley via Grove Park, Orpington or Sevenoaks and beyond without going through London) are major interchange stations that whisk commuters to another part of London, to all intents an purposes they are just marginally busy stations compared to major interchange stations like: Abbey Wood, Woolwich Arsenal, Charlton, Blackheath, Lewisham, Greenwich and New Cross (possibly)

As for withdrawing trains between Charlton and Blackheath, your brave for suggesting it, very brave
Blackheath and Lewisham offer excellent interchanges to other terminals and other districts in South London, also these stations are traditional North Kent line stations would be a shame to lose that connection.
 

NorthKent1989

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Just checked National Rail again and no Thameslink trains on the Medway route still.......yeah I can totally see a serious rethink in the timetable very soon! FAIL/SHAM 10/10
 

Bromley boy

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Initially I was upset, then just frustrated, then got wound up when my train didn't turn up, then just found it funny. Didn't drive a single train today :)

A bit better today by all accounts, although lots have been booked via the loop which is closed.
 

Bromley boy

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Just checked National Rail again and no Thameslink trains on the medeay route still.......yeah I can totally see a serious rethink in the timetable very soon! FAIL/SHAM 10/10

Obviously not any better today in your neck of the woods!
 

ComUtoR

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Just checked National Rail again and no Thameslink trains on the medeay route still.......yeah I can totally see a serious rethink in the timetable very soon! FAIL/SHAM 10/10

If nobody wants it; why does it matter if its cancelled.
 

NorthKent1989

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If nobody wants it; why does it matter if its cancelled.

Because people further into SE London may need it and were probably looking forward to this service, Plumstead and Slade Green were promised an upgrade to 8tph (more mystifying than Sidcup line getting 6tph) but have yet to see it consistently and more importantly the Greenwich branch has probably as to get by on 4tph in some cases!

Obviously not any better today in your neck of the woods!

I just hope they decide to give up on this route entirely and we revert to the timetable we had before, maybe not straight away but some point before 2022
 

Antman

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Just thought I'd let people know that the Medway Thameslink route is not running at all, luckily I'm staying at a mates in town this weekend but GTR should be stripped of their franchise immediately!

Its a shoddy and c**ppy way to treat paying customers and station staff quite frankly, just wait until the Maidstone to Cambridge service is rolled out.....if ever!

The Maidstone East to Cambridge service will be far more useful, apparently it will only call at West Malling, Borough Green, Otford, Swanley and then fast to London Bridge.
 

ComUtoR

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Because people further into SE London may need it and were probably looking forward to this service,

So if these people need it then why should it be reverted to the old timetable just to suit people who already have alternatives.
 

Antman

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So if these people need it then why should it be reverted to the old timetable just to suit people who already have alternatives.

Nobody wants to travel between the Medway Towns and London on a train that serves almost every station on the way.
 

ComUtoR

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It is very much an overstatement to continually push that nobody wants it. There is a demand for additional services and the people who do live along the route are benefiting from more trains and a reduction of cross London travel and another major London terminal being served.

Medway benefits already from having a choice of services and a choice of terminals. Those who live along the route only have a single choice of train. Shouldn't trains be for the many and not the few ?

700's are a far superior and more efficient unit. So you are getting a better train as well.
 

NorthKent1989

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So if these people need it then why should it be reverted to the old timetable just to suit people who already have alternatives.

What alternatives?? Medway trains to Victoria are mostly stoppers to Bromley South, and the Thameslink calls at all stations, or do you mean we should pay premium for HS1? That’s not an alternative for most people for a number of reasons, I will concede that Thameslink may be useful for those in inner SE London, but run it from Dartford, not from Medway as an all stops service why should we call at all stations and have our journey times increase? It’s unreasonable to say the least,
Plumstead and Slade Green don’t need 8tph, they can keep a shortened Thameslink (Dartford to Kentish Town perhaps) while the semi fasts are restored for Medway.
 

NorthKent1989

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It is very much an overstatement to continually push that nobody wants it. There is a demand for additional services and the people who do live along the route are benefiting from more trains and a reduction of cross London travel and another major London terminal being served.

Medway benefits already from having a choice of services and a choice of terminals. Those who live along the route only have a single choice of train. Shouldn't trains be for the many and not the few ?

700's are a far superior and more efficient unit. So you are getting a better train as well.

Yes so superior are the 700s that the seats are made of hard plastic! At least the 465’s were comfortable.

And yes believe it or not no one in Medway wants Thameslink, you keep going about alternatives, but Medway is too far outside London for a train that calls at nearly every stop barring three stations! Why should we have an increase in commute time just because minor stations think 6tph is beneath them, tell me the benefits Thameslink brings to Medway?

Even commuters in Woolwich and Abbey Wood are unhappy they lost the fasts.

As for a single choice of train, most of the North Kent line has both Cannon Street and Charing Cross trains so I don’t know what point your trying to make here
 

Class465fan

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It is very much an overstatement to continually push that nobody wants it. There is a demand for additional services and the people who do live along the route are benefiting from more trains and a reduction of cross London travel and another major London terminal being served.

Medway benefits already from having a choice of services and a choice of terminals. Those who live along the route only have a single choice of train. Shouldn't trains be for the many and not the few ?

700's are a far superior and more efficient unit. So you are getting a better train as well.
Not so superior as soon as you sit on those rock hard seats though, and not to mention the seat reduction.:rolleyes:
 
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