TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable

Kieran1990 · 6 Jun 2018

Think it’s time TPE got honest and owned up that is clearly isn’t working and needs tweaking.
I’ve been 7-13 late into Leeds each night this week (ex1732 Man Vic) and miss by connecting bus. The looping at Dewsbury is so tight and unrealistic in my view and the ex1717 Man Vic-Middlesbrough has been late off Vic all week so usually have to wait for it clear 15B for us.

Does anyone think TPE could tweak as an attempt to improve it for us passangers?

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northernchris · 6 Jun 2018

TPE have been surprisingly quiet so far regarding the timetabling issues. It's clear they are having their own issues - driver shortages and trains being late off depot are fairly common at the moment. I'm not sure though how the timetable can be tweaked as ideally turnaround times should be increased but this is impossible without adding in additional units which they don't have.

notlob.divad · 6 Jun 2018

Am I right in thinking there used to be more interworking of services with units swapping over at Liverpool.

But now there isn't the same interworking because the timetable has been written for the new rolling stock meaning different vehicles will be operating the two services out of Liverpool, this preventing swaps.

I know the blockade is on at the moment it is a more general point about the timetable rather than current situation specifically.

Kieran1990 · 6 Jun 2018

northernchris said:
TPE have been surprisingly quiet so far regarding the timetabling issues. It's clear they are having their own issues - driver shortages and trains being late off depot are fairly common at the moment. I'm not sure though how the timetable can be tweaked as ideally turnaround times should be increased but this is impossible without adding in additional units which they don't have.

Yeah TPE have been very hush hush hush around the issues affecting the North TPE services. I’ve got annoyed at the fact TPE have kind of been let off the hook by the Media & DFT. I get northern is in a right state but TPE have been cancelling, cutting short on the off shots of the core (I.e York-Scar & Leeds- Hull) and cancelling the all shacks Leeds-Picc.

northernchris · 6 Jun 2018

Kieran1990 said:
Yeah TPE have been very hush hush hush around the issues affecting the North TPE services. I’ve got annoyed at the fact TPE have kind of been let off the hook by the Media & DFT. I get northern is in a right state but TPE have been cancelling, cutting short on the off shots of the core (I.e York-Scar & Leeds- Hull) and cancelling the all shacks Leeds-Picc.

Indeed. You would have thought in areas like Scarborough and Hull the local press would have been on to TPE as the pressure isn't on Northern. TPE's PPM has for the majority of the time been worse than Northern's despite them having a 10 minute window, so doubt they are hitting their franchise targets

northernchris · 6 Jun 2018

notlob.divad said:
Am I right in thinking there used to be more interworking of services with units swapping over at Liverpool.

But now there isn't the same interworking because the timetable has been written for the new rolling stock meaning different vehicles will be operating the two services out of Liverpool, this preventing swaps.

I know the blockade is on at the moment it is a more general point about the timetable rather than current situation specifically.

That's right, I believe all routes are now self-contained so no interworking at Liverpool or Newcastle. Once the loco hauled sets enter service it should free up a couple of 185s, so a temporary measure may be to add one to the cycle at Liverpool to boost turnarounds, then work on a more robust timetable in preparation for the new stock arriving

geoffk · 6 Jun 2018

northernchris said:
That's right, I believe all routes are now self-contained so no interworking at Liverpool or Newcastle. Once the loco hauled sets enter service it should free up a couple of 185s, so a temporary measure may be to add one to the cycle at Liverpool to boost turnarounds, then work on a more robust timetable in preparation for the new stock arriving

I understand no interworking at Liverpool as each service will be getting a different type of stock, but won't both the Newcastle services have bi-modes?

wellhouse · 6 Jun 2018

I've encountered a couple of curious 6-car workings with the new timetable.

23rd May, 1P53, the 0745 Departure from Huddersfield to Middlebrough was 6 cars. At Leeds, it was announced that owing to the short platform at Northallerton, the rear set was declared out of use.

1. Is there no provision for SDO at Northallerton? (Both sets were refurbished units)
2. Why was the rear set declared out of use at Leeds rather than York?
3. Is this a planned 6-car working, or was it just a one-off to reposition one of the sets?

Today, Wednesday 5th June, I met a friend at Slaithwaite off 1K10, the 0738 departure from Hull to Manchester Piccadilly. It was also 6-cars, and my friend did not recall any announcement on board in respect of the short platform.

1. Is this a planned 6-car working or just a one-off?
2. What other skip-stop TPE services are planned as 6-car workings?
3. Are there no pre-recorded announcements to advise of short platforms?

Spartacus · 7 Jun 2018

wellhouse said:
I've encountered a couple of curious 6-car workings with the new timetable.

23rd May, 1P53, the 0745 Departure from Huddersfield to Middlebrough was 6 cars. At Leeds, it was announced that owing to the short platform at Northallerton, the rear set was declared out of use.

1. Is there no provision for SDO at Northallerton? (Both sets were refurbished units)
2. Why was the rear set declared out of use at Leeds rather than York?
3. Is this a planned 6-car working, or was it just a one-off to reposition one of the sets?

Today, Wednesday 5th June, I met a friend at Slaithwaite off 1K10, the 0738 departure from Hull to Manchester Piccadilly. It was also 6-cars, and my friend did not recall any announcement on board in respect of the short platform.

1. Is this a planned 6-car working or just a one-off?
2. What other skip-stop TPE services are planned as 6-car workings?
3. Are there no pre-recorded announcements to advise of short platforms?

Seems there are regular 6 car workings to Middlesbrough, though the issue will be at Yarm rather than Northallerton, those platforms are pretty massive. I couldn't say why they took it totally out of use though, before Garforth was lengthened and 6 cars there tended to lock the rear doors, or just the rear carriage doors out, usually resulting in a panicked guard at Leeds or York when they remembered they'd not unlocked them. Maybe procedures have changed by then, but it still doesn't explain why they'd lock it out at Leeds rather than at least York.

scarby · 7 Jun 2018

The 19.35 service into Scarborough/19.46 departure cancelled again!!! Why not just remove it from the timetable?

When are TPE's management going to show leadership and sort this out?

markydh · 7 Jun 2018

geoffk said:
I understand no interworking at Liverpool as each service will be getting a different type of stock, but won't both the Newcastle services have bi-modes?

Yes, but the Liverpool is being extended to Edinburgh.

greyman42 · 7 Jun 2018

The 0138 York - Manchester airport cancelled this morning. I don't know if they laid on alternative transport.

Kieran1990 · 7 Jun 2018

scarby said:
The 19.35 service into Scarborough/19.46 departure cancelled again!!! Why not just remove it from the timetable?

When are TPE's management going to show leadership and sort this out?

Not holding much hope for it tonight to be honest, currently on its ex17:35 off Vic. Arrived at Stalybridge minute down but low and behold the all shacks is 10 late in front. Left Hudds 7/8down and it’s been stop start since. Just looped the stooppsr at Dews but we’ll be 9/10 down by Leeds.
Yeah I don’t really think TPE Mgt are caring at all, they aren’t getting any bad press are they?

transmanche · 7 Jun 2018

wellhouse said:
23rd May, 1P53, the 0745 Departure from Huddersfield to Middlebrough was 6 cars. At Leeds, it was announced that owing to the short platform at Northallerton, the rear set was declared out of use.

Seems a bit odd. VTEC services also call at Northallerton, and if a 91+mark IVs can fit I'm sure a 2x185 can fit on the platforms. And I thought the platforms had been extended so that 2x5-car class 80x formations would fit too...

geoffk · 7 Jun 2018

markydh said:
Yes, but the Liverpool is being extended to Edinburgh.

Oh yes, I'd forgotten that. So no interworking at all.

northernchris · 7 Jun 2018

geoffk said:
I understand no interworking at Liverpool as each service will be getting a different type of stock, but won't both the Newcastle services have bi-modes?

They won't be able to interwork at Liverpool once the new stock is in use, but may be able to add a 185 from July as a temporary measure once the Liverpool blockade is over

Statto · 8 Jun 2018

Just had a look at the timetable & it's far too tight, at Manchester Airport, TPE North trains have 10 minute turn around, that is impossible with cleaning the train of litter, then putting out seat reservations ecc, & that's providing the train has arrived on time. TPE South has more realistic around 30 minutes to turn around.

Spartacus · 8 Jun 2018

Statto said:
Just had a look at the timetable & it's far too tight, at Manchester Airport, TPE North trains have 10 minute turn around, that is impossible with cleaning the train of litter, then putting out seat reservations ecc, & that's providing the train has arrived on time. TPE South has more realistic around 30 minutes to turn around.

30 might be overkill, you'd tie up the platforms for too long, though I think 20 for TPE services might be more reasonable the 10 currently allowed. Then it would be the same as if the stock was coming in empty.

scarby · 8 Jun 2018

Another cracking week for the 06.00 Scarborough-Manchester Airport.

Monday arrived 8L, Tuesday terminated at Man Picc 24L, Wednesday arrived 10L, Thursday terminated at Manchester Picc despite arriving there 7E, Friday terminated at Manchester Picc 14L.

So not a single on time arrival and a 40% success rate in actually making it to the advertised destination.

David Dunning · 10 Jun 2018

northernchris said:
Indeed. You would have thought in areas like Scarborough and Hull the local press would have been on to TPE as the pressure isn't on Northern. TPE's PPM has for the majority of the time been worse than Northern's despite them having a 10 minute window, so doubt they are hitting their franchise targets

We have had a couple of stories about this and also the fact that the Mk3s would not be running in July too. TPE wouldn't do an interview about it though
https://www.minsterfm.com/news/loca...or-delays-on-the-malton-and-scarborough-line/

pdq · 12 Jun 2018

BTL: Batley; HUD: Huddersfield; HUL: Hull: LDS: Leeds; MAN: Manchester Piccadilly; WTT: working timetable

I’ve been taking a look on Real Time Trains at the timings behind my usual homeward train, the 1722 HUD-BTL (1647 MAN-HUL service). I was getting the sense that it was never on time, and generally around 10 minutes late.

This train is formed at MAN from the 1640 arrival (1638 in the WTT) from Hull, and it seems to be this service that causes much of the problem. I’ve taken the timings from the last 10 weekday trains (Tues 29/5 to Mon 11/6). Apart from one cancellation, the train from HUL departed exactly on time. At LDS it was an average of 4.5 late; HUD 7.2 late; arriving MAN nearly 8.6 late (max 17, min 3). With a WTT turnaround of 9 minutes it’s generally impossible for the train to depart on time, which I assume means it’s then losing its path, since it loses time throughout its eastbound journey: average depart from MAN: 6.4 late; HUD 11.8 late; BTL 15.8 late.

An average traveller isn’t going to care what the underlying reasons for the late running are: all they will see is a train that, at HUD, is consistently late and gets later.

Other than the fact that the turnarounds are too tight at MAN, what might be the cause(s) of this persistent lateness of the HUL-MAN incoming train?

Image of data attached, including Median and Mode...

And another version which removes the one day where the service was particularly late:

scarby · 12 Jun 2018

Yet another cancellation at Scarborough yesterday, the 15.46 outward cancelled with the 15.35 arrival yet again terminated at Malton 27 down.

Unacceptable. TPE management - show some leadership skills, if you have any.

yorkguy · 12 Jun 2018

scarby said:
Yet another cancellation at Scarborough yesterday, the 15.46 outward cancelled with the 15.35 arrival yet again terminated at Malton 27 down.

Unacceptable. TPE management - show some leadership skills, if you have any.

It really is unacceptable to cancel a service that only operates hourly anyway. I catch the train in Malton so it doesn’t affect me adversely - in fact the short turned service from Malton rarely has more than 50 passengers on it as far as York. However to chuck a train load of Scarborough bound passengers out at Malton where there is no waiting room, toilet, shop, etc is hugely inconvenient. And for those wanting to travel from Scarborough, a two hour service gap is just not on. It’s bad enough only seeing a 3 car set every hour, let alone every 2 hours

Bovverboy · 12 Jun 2018

scarby said:
Yet another cancellation at Scarborough yesterday, the 15.46 outward cancelled with the 15.35 arrival yet again terminated at Malton 27 down.

Unacceptable. TPE management - show some leadership skills, if you have any.

Some of the TPE turnaround times are quite outrageous, at the moment. Those at Middlesbrough are worse than at Scarborough, only 3-4 minutes for much of the day. No wonder trains are turned at Northallerton. The Manchester Airport to Newcastle is no worse than Scarborough, but no better either, turnarounds of typically 8-15 minutes.

Northern's services have gone to pieces because of a lack of route-trained crews (or so we're told) and, incredibly, a shortage of rolling stock. Whether or not that is excusable is arguable, but TPE seem to have gone down the nick solely as a consequence of penny-pinching.

greyman42 · 12 Jun 2018

Services to Scarborough, Middlesbrough and Newcastle cancelled this afternoon.

J-P_L · 12 Jun 2018

greyman42 said:
Services to Scarborough, Middlesbrough and Newcastle cancelled this afternoon.

I was booked on the 17:57 from Middlesbrough. The last 3 have been cancelled and turned at York or Northallerton.

Currently enjoying Northern’s First Class offering towards Darlington!

Bantamzen · 12 Jun 2018

greyman42 said:
Services to Scarborough, Middlesbrough and Newcastle cancelled this afternoon.

There has been a signalling issue at Micklefield for much of the afternoon, so everything between Leeds and York has been suffering delays and cancellations.

northernchris · 12 Jun 2018

Bovverboy said:
Northern's services have gone to pieces because of a lack of route-trained crews (or so we're told) and, incredibly, a shortage of rolling stock. Whether or not that is excusable is arguable, but TPE seem to have gone down the nick solely as a consequence of penny-pinching.

First penny pinching?! Surely not!! I do wonder though if the sectional running times are accurate as with the lengths of some of TPEs journeys there should be some slack built in to recover small delays

bbrez · 13 Jun 2018

I must say I'm glad I turned down to contract extension at my previous job now. The new timetables would've added a fair chunk of time onto my commute and my experiences so far on travelling on TPE since the timetable change for job interviews and leisure has been pretty poor.

Timetable needs more than a tweak.

scarby · 13 Jun 2018

Absolute garbage service for Scarborough yesterday.

15.35 arrival / 15.46 departure cancelled as usual.

17.35 / 17.50 also cancelled.

19.35 / 19.46 also cancelled.

TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable

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