Manchester Metrolink to Middleton (proposed)

PR1Berske · 21 Jun 2018

I've always treated aspirations to expand Metrolink with some suspicion and doubt given the money involved but you know how both local newspapers and local press can get.
Here's the story from the Evening News. It's a terrible site to copy and paste from because of all the adverts and links so apologies if it's a bit of a mess here.

Metrolink could be coming to Middleton .

Rochdale council ’s hopes of bringing trams to the town have taken another step forward.

.

Council leader Allen Brett had urged transport bosses to back a proposal to extend the Bury to Manchester line into Middleton.

At a meeting between the council and Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM), the body agreed it made financial sense.

The proposal for the new line, which would include a park-and-ride scheme, will now be developed in greater detail so that a fully-costed feasibility study and business case can be presented to Greater Manchester’s political leaders.

Source: https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...rolink-extension-middleton-tram-bury-14812896

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Clarky · 22 Jun 2018

Money and political will aside, linking the Bury line to Middleton seems like a good idea and could potentially link up some close to Manchester but poorly served areas but as a local I cannot see how they will route this, its not like there are great swathes of undeveloped land to build a spur off the existing line and nowhere I can see to route a line. Great idea but I cannot see how it can be built.

radamfi · 22 Jun 2018

Clarky said:
Money and political will aside, linking the Bury line to Middleton seems like a good idea and could potentially link up some close to Manchester but poorly served areas but as a local I cannot see how they will route this, its not like there are great swathes of undeveloped land to build a spur off the existing line and nowhere I can see to route a line. Great idea but I cannot see how it can be built.

The most obvious route would be street running from Bowker Vale via the 59 route.

shredder1 · 22 Jun 2018

I would love to see that, living in the village of Rhodes, but would be surprised if it actually happened, the L and Y was actually granted Parliamentary permission to build a line from Middleton Lancs station to join the Bury line near Bowker Vale, but it was never built, I still have a copy of the original plans which would have involved a goods yard at the back of my house in Rhodes. Of interest one of the original plans of the old Picc Vic link plan was to run a service from Langley to Manchester Airport??? A Middleton LRT extention has been mooted a number of times since Metrolink was first designed, lots of lip service, but thats been it.

Clarky · 22 Jun 2018

A junction at bowler vale the track is on an embankment surrounded mostly by shops and housing, that and Middleton road is a car park traffic wise in the peaks if they are thinking about street running, there is also the m60 junction to contend with, I'd imagine the cost would be prohibitive even if it is buildable

Chester1 · 22 Jun 2018

Clarky said:
A junction at bowler vale the track is on an embankment surrounded mostly by shops and housing, that and Middleton road is a car park traffic wise in the peaks if they are thinking about street running, there is also the m60 junction to contend with, I'd imagine the cost would be prohibitive even if it is buildable

I disagree about Bowker Vale. Its a small row of shops and a small van busineess. There is enough space to move the station and build a steep viaduct down to road level like at Ponoma. The Oldham line solution of a dedicated bridge over the M60 would work. I agree though that the traffic is a huge problem.

Dentonian · 22 Jun 2018

PR1Berske said:
I've always treated aspirations to expand Metrolink with some suspicion and doubt given the money involved but you know how both local newspapers and local press can get.
Here's the story from the Evening News. It's a terrible site to copy and paste from because of all the adverts and links so apologies if it's a bit of a mess here.

Source: https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...rolink-extension-middleton-tram-bury-14812896

As you say, the MEN is a lousy site - overtly controlled by Trinity in London - both technically and in content. Not that the visual media locally is any better - FAR from it, but that's a bit off topic (for now!).

From what i read, the most worrying aspect was that Rochdale Council's arguments in favour of Metrolink was the Middleton area's *low* car ownership. Frightening! And to make it worse, they referred to the declining bus services in Middleton.

158756 · 22 Jun 2018

Dentonian said:
As you say, the MEN is a lousy site - overtly controlled by Trinity in London - both technically and in content. Not that the visual media locally is any better - FAR from it, but that's a bit off topic (for now!).

From what i read, the most worrying aspect was that Rochdale Council's arguments in favour of Metrolink was the Middleton area's *low* car ownership. Frightening! And to make it worse, they referred to the declining bus services in Middleton.

Middleton has low car ownership (only really true of Langley, and even then everyone in the new houses probably has a car), so it needs good public transport. The only way that can really be done will be by tram. There is no point trying to protect a mode of transport that's too slow and isn't wanted by most people in the 21st century - a bus every 2 minutes or whatever it is hasn't persuaded the residents of Middleton to use them. The removal of buses, as well as many cars, will help pollution and congestion in Manchester too.

Dentonian · 22 Jun 2018

158756 said:
Middleton has low car ownership (only really true of Langley, and even then everyone in the new houses probably has a car), so it needs good public transport. The only way that can really be done will be by tram. There is no point trying to protect a mode of transport that's too slow and isn't wanted by most people in the 21st century - a bus every 2 minutes or whatever it is hasn't persuaded the residents of Middleton to use them. The removal of buses, as well as many cars, will help pollution and congestion in Manchester too.

And how far apart will the tram stops be? Too far for most car-less people. Whether you consider it self inflicted or not - and often it certainly is not! - people in poor areas often have poor physical health, and would struggle to walk long distances to/from tram stops especially 240 times a year in all weathers and all "environments". If you remove buses you will *increase* car ownership/use. What makes you think people "want" Metrolink? Politicians want Metrolink; the Media want Metrolink; middle income champagne environmentalists under 35 want Metrolink. Most council tax-payers of GM generally hate it.

158756 · 22 Jun 2018

Dentonian said:
And how far apart will the tram stops be? Too far for most car-less people. Whether you consider it self inflicted or not - and often it certainly is not! - people in poor areas often have poor physical health, and would struggle to walk long distances to/from tram stops especially 240 times a year in all weathers and all "environments". If you remove buses you will *increase* car ownership/use. What makes you think people "want" Metrolink? Politicians want Metrolink; the Media want Metrolink; middle income champagne environmentalists under 35 want Metrolink. Most council tax-payers of GM generally hate it.

The success of Metrolink suggests people on it's routes certainly don't hate it, and compared to the heavy rail Oldham loop or the ever declining bus ridership it looks very popular. If the stops are too far apart there should be some sort of bus service retained (to get people to the tram, if there is an integrated fares system by then) , but there shouldn't be queues of buses like there are now or the frequent routes which exist to compete with some of Metrolink's lines.

Chester1 · 22 Jun 2018

Dentonian said:
And how far apart will the tram stops be? Too far for most car-less people. Whether you consider it self inflicted or not - and often it certainly is not! - people in poor areas often have poor physical health, and would struggle to walk long distances to/from tram stops especially 240 times a year in all weathers and all "environments". If you remove buses you will *increase* car ownership/use. What makes you think people "want" Metrolink? Politicians want Metrolink; the Media want Metrolink; middle income champagne environmentalists under 35 want Metrolink. Most council tax-payers of GM generally hate it.

Do you have any evidence to support those statements?! I am baffled by the assumption that the stops will be too far apart, which lines currently have this problem? Certainly not Eccles, Ashton or Airport lines which are most comparable with a line to Middleton. What proportion of car less people have a disability or health problems that also means they cannot walk a few hundred metres? Outside the (heavy) rail enthusiast community I know litterally no one who "hates" Metrolink. The main complaints are overcrowding, unreliability and that there isn't a line near them. Two out of three of those complaints are a reflection of its popularity.

Clarky · 22 Jun 2018

Chester1 said:
I disagree about Bowker Vale. Its a small row of shops and a small van busineess. There is enough space to move the station and build a steep viaduct down to road level like at Ponoma. The Oldham line solution of a dedicated bridge over the M60 would work. I agree though that the traffic is a huge problem.

I'd like to see them try and ramp down from the embankment without having to remove a few houses and the row of shops, as for moving the existing station there are bridges either side of it and housing beyond that, I'm not saying its impossible but the cost of it all would I'd imagine be eye watering to say the least especially if they have to ramp either side. Will be interesting if this gets off the pages of the MEN and into reality!

PR1Berske · 22 Jun 2018

Looking at a map and without getting out my Crayola, there seems to be only a very limited number of places where a tram stop could be economically viable. Let's be honest (and this is why I tend to be very sniffy about Metrolink extension stories) the core issue is money. Can a station be financially justified, can a modern station (step free access and all) be afforded, can the long time viability of the station be guaranteed? So often these questions are ignored, and I think given that the Middleton idea would only need maybe two, tops three, intermediate stations, I can't see TfGM being that positive about the financial return.

radamfi · 22 Jun 2018

The A664 is a very wide road so there's certainly space for a street running route along the 17 route. BRT would probably be an easier choice on that corridor though.

Dentonian · 22 Jun 2018

158756 said:
The success of Metrolink suggests people on it's routes certainly don't hate it, and compared to the heavy rail Oldham loop or the ever declining bus ridership it looks very popular. If the stops are too far apart there should be some sort of bus service retained (to get people to the tram, if there is an integrated fares system by then) , but there shouldn't be queues of buses like there are now or the frequent routes which exist to compete with some of Metrolink's lines.

Ever declining bus ridership is partly because of Metrolink! Integration is not the way forward, because what you are suggesting is people walking (on average) 400 metres to the bus stop, catching the bus for say, three to four stops (a kilometer) and then walking and waiting for a tram. Its just non sensical unless the overall distance is very long; Langley is barely 6 miles from Manchester.

As for "frequent routes existing to compete with Metrolink lines". WHICH WAS THERE FIRST??????? And what do you mean by "queues of buses"

Chester1 said:
Do you have any evidence to support those statements?! I am baffled by the assumption that the stops will be too far apart, which lines currently have this problem? Certainly not Eccles, Ashton or Airport lines which are most comparable with a line to Middleton. What proportion of car less people have a disability or health problems that also means they cannot walk a few hundred metres? Outside the (heavy) rail enthusiast community I know litterally no one who "hates" Metrolink. The main complaints are overcrowding, unreliability and that there isn't a line near them. Two out of three of those complaints are a reflection of its popularity.

Ashton has probably not been raised as a problem because - so far - there is still a fairly frequent bus service, even if it is only just over half the headway of when Metrolink was first built. There *have* been complaints about people in Woodhouse Park and other parts of the extensive Wythenshawe Estate not being able to use public transport because the tram is too remote, but the bus service has either gone altogether or been reduced/diverted. Eccles is different because apart from the stretch from Langworthy to Eccles it isn't really a residential route anyway. I'm not sure of the proportion of car less people unable to walk, but physical disabilities aren't always obvious (or registered with the DSS). Similarly those with access to a car. A very high proportion of over 50s have some limitation of their movement, so it is a lot of the populous overall. I suffer from anaemia and am more susceptable to other problems - I had heat exhaustion this time last year, due to foolishly walking a mile in typical Mancunian humidity. I don't drive, so without buses within 400 metres (6 per hour to two major destinations), I would struggle without shelling out for taxis regularly. My brother does drive and has a completely different disability which also limits his walking. He occasionally uses the bus, but its obviously much more expensive (and marginally slower) than driving, so its really only if he's drinking or the car is in for MoT or other repairs that he uses the bus. Trams would be an absolute no-no, not only because he can't walk more than about 500 metres without pain, but that pain would get worse sitting on hard plastic. He hates trams; he sees them as a massive waste of public money. He cannot understand why bus services can't be improved/restored at a fraction of the cost.......and (in practical terms) in a fraction of the time. He's not too enamoured with heavy rail either - unless its powered by steam!

WatcherZero · 22 Jun 2018

It would diverge from the Bury line at Crumpsall where the new siding is being built for the Trafford centre service then likely a stop at North Manchester General, one at Blackley then up the A664/Rochdale Rd to Middleton.

Clarky · 22 Jun 2018

WatcherZero said:
It would diverge from the Bury line at Crumpsall where the new siding is being built for the Trafford centre service then likely a stop at North Manchester General, one at Blackley then up the A664/Rochdale Rd to Middleton.

That's not a bad idea, there is a bus lane up the majority of that end of Rochdale road so street running could be possible, maybe a stop at the hospital, one in blackley village or just onto Rochdale road one somewhere near the junction with Victoria avenue, possibly one alkrington and then Middleton and out to Langley should the need be there (puts box of crayons down)

Robertj21a · 22 Jun 2018

Dentonian said:
Ever declining bus ridership is partly because of Metrolink! Integration is not the way forward, because what you are suggesting is people walking (on average) 400 metres to the bus stop, catching the bus for say, three to four stops (a kilometer) and then walking and waiting for a tram. Its just non sensical unless the overall distance is very long; Langley is barely 6 miles from Manchester.

As for "frequent routes existing to compete with Metrolink lines". WHICH WAS THERE FIRST??????? And what do you mean by "queues of buses"

Ashton has probably not been raised as a problem because - so far - there is still a fairly frequent bus service, even if it is only just over half the headway of when Metrolink was first built. There *have* been complaints about people in Woodhouse Park and other parts of the extensive Wythenshawe Estate not being able to use public transport because the tram is too remote, but the bus service has either gone altogether or been reduced/diverted. Eccles is different because apart from the stretch from Langworthy to Eccles it isn't really a residential route anyway. I'm not sure of the proportion of car less people unable to walk, but physical disabilities aren't always obvious (or registered with the DSS). Similarly those with access to a car. A very high proportion of over 50s have some limitation of their movement, so it is a lot of the populous overall. I suffer from anaemia and am more susceptable to other problems - I had heat exhaustion this time last year, due to foolishly walking a mile in typical Mancunian humidity. I don't drive, so without buses within 400 metres (6 per hour to two major destinations), I would struggle without shelling out for taxis regularly. My brother does drive and has a completely different disability which also limits his walking. He occasionally uses the bus, but its obviously much more expensive (and marginally slower) than driving, so its really only if he's drinking or the car is in for MoT or other repairs that he uses the bus. Trams would be an absolute no-no, not only because he can't walk more than about 500 metres without pain, but that pain would get worse sitting on hard plastic. He hates trams; he sees them as a massive waste of public money. He cannot understand why bus services can't be improved/restored at a fraction of the cost.......and (in practical terms) in a fraction of the time. He's not too enamoured with heavy rail either - unless its powered by steam!

I think your oft-repeated hatred of Metrolink can hardly be representative of the Manchester population as a whole. I've heard much praise for it and don't recall any negative comments whatsoever. I know you suffer a level of disability which makes tram travel uncomfortable but it's unfair to assume that everyone else dislikes the trams. Personally, I find them excellent and enjoy the smooth, lengthy rides - to me, it's far better than the buses bouncing along potholed roads.

Ianno87 · 22 Jun 2018

WatcherZero said:
It would diverge from the Bury line at Crumpsall where the new siding is being built for the Trafford centre service then likely a stop at North Manchester General, one at Blackley then up the A664/Rochdale Rd to Middleton.

Would that route not be a bit...topographically challenging?

Bucephalus · 23 Jun 2018

Well... I quite like the idea of an extension to Middleton. crayons are out already...

WatcherZero · 23 Jun 2018

Ianno87 said:
Would that route not be a bit...topographically challenging?

Not really, roads are wide the whole way (3-4 lanes +parking bays with bus lanes that could form a central segregated section in large parts) and the main road has a gentle gradient of a few percent, certainly nowhere near as challenging as Rochdale.

Dentonian · 23 Jun 2018

Robertj21a said:
I think your oft-repeated hatred of Metrolink can hardly be representative of the Manchester population as a whole. I've heard much praise for it and don't recall any negative comments whatsoever. I know you suffer a level of disability which makes tram travel uncomfortable but it's unfair to assume that everyone else dislikes the trams. Personally, I find them excellent and enjoy the smooth, lengthy rides - to me, it's far better than the buses bouncing along potholed roads.

Seat comfort (or total absence of) may be a fairly rare criticism, but I assure you that Metrolink is widely despised by many, many thousands of people who believe their taxes should be better spent on more inclusive transport (or not on transport at all). It is seen as an elitest "white elephant" form of transport for trendy, middle income, twenty somethings living in central or south Manchester, who try to dictate that long standing local tax payers give up their cars (often acquired due to the decline in bus services), yet give them a form of transport that needs a car to reach. They don't get heard because they don't live in marginal constituencies/wards. They also want "TFGM" scrapped because they see it as totally obsessed with Metrolink to the expense of not only bus users, but motorists and even heavy rail users. This is the only place where their argument falls down; they should be aiming their anger at GMCA not TFGM.

Oh, and I just noticed - like everyone else who tries to dictate people's travelling habits - you excluded "Greater" from Manchester. Typical centralism.

Clarky · 23 Jun 2018

Bucephalus said:
Well... I quite like the idea of an extension to Middleton. crayons are out already...

More possibilities...

Chester1 · 23 Jun 2018

Dentonian said:
Seat comfort (or total absence of) may be a fairly rare criticism, but I assure you that Metrolink is widely despised by many, many thousands of people who believe their taxes should be better spent on more inclusive transport (or not on transport at all). It is seen as an elitest "white elephant" form of transport for trendy, middle income, twenty somethings living in central or south Manchester, who try to dictate that long standing local tax payers give up their cars (often acquired due to the decline in bus services), yet give them a form of transport that needs a car to reach. They don't get heard because they don't live in marginal constituencies/wards. They also want "TFGM" scrapped because they see it as totally obsessed with Metrolink to the expense of not only bus users, but motorists and even heavy rail users. This is the only place where their argument falls down; they should be aiming their anger at GMCA not TFGM.

Oh, and I just noticed - like everyone else who tries to dictate people's travelling habits - you excluded "Greater" from Manchester. Typical centralism.

From those comments I guess you don't like the lifestyle of middle income 20 somethings either and think the city centre is being ruined by development instead of being a poster child of industrial decay? I appreciate Metrolink doesn't suit your needs but its constant passenger growth should make you consider that its meeting a need. TfGM has focused heavily on Metrolink because until last year it was the only form of transport that it had real power over. That will change now they have the power to regulate bus services again and intergrate ticketing.

Clarky said:
More possibilities...
View attachment 48712

That could work too. I am surprised that they are not considering using the old four track formation from Victoria to Middleton Junction and then use the route of the old line into Middleton, as an extension of the Airport Line service. Switching Mossley station to Metrolink and building an interchange station at Middleton Junction would provide more connections.

Dentonian · 23 Jun 2018

Chester1 said:
From those comments I guess you don't like the lifestyle of middle income 20 somethings either and think the city centre is being ruined by development instead of being a poster child of industrial decay? I appreciate Metrolink doesn't suit your needs but its constant passenger growth should make you consider that its meeting a need. TfGM has focused heavily on Metrolink because until last year it was the only form of transport that it had real power over. That will change now they have the power to regulate bus services again and intergrate ticketing.

No. What I don't like is that the most politically powerful demography in the richest and most politically correct part of GM are trying to speak for everyone in the county. Metrolink's continued passenger growth is increasingly at the expense (literally and figuratively) of bus services/passengers. This is building up major social and long-term congestion problems for the future. Light Rail should be focussing on getting people out of cars, not destroying bus services which will ultimately force more people INTO cars.

As for the power to regulate bus services. This is becoming less and less likely to happen. The clock is ticking and everything else seems to be overtaking Bus Reform in the list of priorities for the Elected Mayor and GMCA.

Chester1 · 23 Jun 2018

Dentonian said:
No. What I don't like is that the most politically powerful demography in the richest and most politically correct part of GM are trying to speak for everyone in the county. Metrolink's continued passenger growth is increasingly at the expense (literally and figuratively) of bus services/passengers. This is building up major social and long-term congestion problems for the future. Light Rail should be focussing on getting people out of cars, not destroying bus services which will ultimately force more people INTO cars.

As for the power to regulate bus services. This is becoming less and less likely to happen. The clock is ticking and everything else seems to be overtaking Bus Reform in the list of priorities for the Elected Mayor and GMCA.

The powers in the bus deregulation act do not expire, they are there for whenever TfGM are ready to make use of them. There will always be a bitter minority opposing change, its an unfortunate part of human psychology that people get to a point when they don't like any change despite moaning about the status quo. From the perspective of a 20 something middle income person, its pretty laughable to think we have excessive political power. The power and wealth in this country is held by rich and middle class aged 45+, not young adults! The city lifestyle of flats rather than houses, metrolink over cars and coffee shops in preference to cafes etc is not liked simple because its different to other peoples lifestyles at the same age. Many people cannot accept the validity of other people having significantly different priorities and making different decisions to themselves. The decline in bus use in Greater Manchester is not worse than in UK cities without trams, its the result of higher car ownership levels in the last 30 years and the failure of bus deregulation. Middleton should be able to support both 5tph Metrolink and a bus every 10 minutes into central Manchester. The answer is to regulate bus services and intergrate fares with trains and trams, not to stop investing in Metrolink.

Dentonian · 23 Jun 2018

Chester1 said:
The powers in the bus deregulation act do not expire, they are there for whenever TfGM are ready to make use of them. There will always be a bitter minority opposing change, its an unfortunate part of human psychology that people get to a point when they don't like any change despite moaning about the status quo. From the perspective of a 20 something middle income person, its pretty laughable to think we have excessive political power. The power and wealth in this country is held by rich and middle class aged 45+, not young adults! The city lifestyle of flats rather than houses, metrolink over cars and coffee shops in preference to cafes etc is not liked simple because its different to other peoples lifestyles at the same age. Many people cannot accept the validity of other people having significantly different priorities and making different decisions to themselves. The decline in bus use in Greater Manchester is not worse than in UK cities without trams, its the result of higher car ownership levels in the last 30 years and the failure of bus deregulation. Middleton should be able to support both 5tph Metrolink and a bus every 10 minutes into central Manchester. The answer is to regulate bus services and intergrate fares with trains and trams, not to stop investing in Metrolink.

The point about Bus Reform is that the next Mayoral elections are in 2020 and (despite manifesto and TV debate comments) it is possible a more right wing Mayor could be elected as post-Brexit Britain returns to the attitudes of the "Days of Empire". - or the days of the Raj as my brother describes it.

I take your point about older people having more political power in general, but in major cities, especially one with the biggest Student population in Europe, younger people have a lot of influence here. Interesting you say "Metrolink over cars". It is over much Metrolink over buses here - albeit a lot is to do with vote chasing politicians and our elitest mainstream media - of which BBC NW are by far the worst. Its also not about people making different decisions to previous generations, its about the impact of those decisions on others. I would disagree that bus use decline is no worse than anywhere else - especially in the last 5-10 years, but yes, Bus Deregulation certainly accelerated the need to obtain cars. That is now getting worse because its the poorer, low(er) car ownership areas that are seeing the biggest service cuts or fare hikes. At least in 1986-88 it was the poorer areas that suffered the least cuts.
Interesting that you quote 6bph from Middleton to Manchester, as the current figure is 15bph for off-peak direct services (ie. not including less direct Stagecoach/TFGM services or peak time X62). Equally, a 12 minute tram service will only integrate with a 10 minute bus service once an hour! (in paper). Heavy rail is partly irrelevant as Mills Hill is a considerable distance from Middleton centre.......and I gather trains are grossly overcrowded at peak times.

Chester1 · 23 Jun 2018

Dentonian said:
The point about Bus Reform is that the next Mayoral elections are in 2020 and (despite manifesto and TV debate comments) it is possible a more right wing Mayor could be elected as post-Brexit Britain returns to the attitudes of the "Days of Empire". - or the days of the Raj as my brother describes it.

I take your point about older people having more political power in general, but in major cities, especially one with the biggest Student population in Europe, younger people have a lot of influence here. Interesting you say "Metrolink over cars". It is over much Metrolink over buses here - albeit a lot is to do with vote chasing politicians and our elitest mainstream media - of which BBC NW are by far the worst. Its also not about people making different decisions to previous generations, its about the impact of those decisions on others. I would disagree that bus use decline is no worse than anywhere else - especially in the last 5-10 years, but yes, Bus Deregulation certainly accelerated the need to obtain cars. That is now getting worse because its the poorer, low(er) car ownership areas that are seeing the biggest service cuts or fare hikes. At least in 1986-88 it was the poorer areas that suffered the least cuts.
Interesting that you quote 6bph from Middleton to Manchester, as the current figure is 15bph for off-peak direct services (ie. not including less direct Stagecoach/TFGM services or peak time X62). Equally, a 12 minute tram service will only integrate with a 10 minute bus service once an hour! (in paper). Heavy rail is partly irrelevant as Mills Hill is a considerable distance from Middleton centre.......and I gather trains are grossly overcrowded at peak times.

15bph and you think a slight reduction would be awful? Even a very reduced level of 6bph is still service that doesn't require looking at timetables or planning ahead. There is plenty of demand to have both at a good frequency! Students in Manchester predominantly use buses over Metrolink, so if anything they support the wishes of the older generations over those in their 20s and 30s. Andy Burnham will be re-elected as long as he is selected as the Labour candidate because no other party stands any chance whatsoever! Last year he got 63% of first preference votes making second preferences irrelevant. You only need to listen to attitudes about the phenomal growth of the city centre to know most complaints by older residents of Greater Manchester about investment are about change full stop and about an inability to accept people having a different lifestyle to them is not an insult on them. There is litterally no other economically viable alternative to high density residential development and a swathe of land surrounding the city centre is an ex industrial wasteland anyway. Its the same for many of the town centres of Greater Manchester
For instance when I bought my flat (not in the city centre) I had to listen to some truely moronic comments from collegues, aquaitances, friends of friends etc because some people can't get their head around someone in their late 20s not trying to have a partner, 2.4 children, a house with garden and a car etc etc like they did (or were desperate for). Of course theres nothing wrong with those things, which may very well be my future! You maybe genuine about not wanting Metrolink in your area but there are plenty of people who moaned that was not in their area and then when the "big bang" extended it into their area they then moaned about it, they basically just need to have stuff to grumble about. If the buses are regulated then there should be sufficient frequency to have a good service level for both. They are useful for different needs and people and the competition between them if regulated should be small. The obvious option would be to replace double deckers with single. What proportion of buses in Middleton heading to Crumpsall and the city centre are currently double deckers?

Robertj21a · 23 Jun 2018

Dentonian said:
The point about Bus Reform is that the next Mayoral elections are in 2020 and (despite manifesto and TV debate comments) it is possible a more right wing Mayor could be elected as post-Brexit Britain returns to the attitudes of the "Days of Empire". - or the days of the Raj as my brother describes it.

I take your point about older people having more political power in general, but in major cities, especially one with the biggest Student population in Europe, younger people have a lot of influence here. Interesting you say "Metrolink over cars". It is over much Metrolink over buses here - albeit a lot is to do with vote chasing politicians and our elitest mainstream media - of which BBC NW are by far the worst. Its also not about people making different decisions to previous generations, its about the impact of those decisions on others. I would disagree that bus use decline is no worse than anywhere else - especially in the last 5-10 years, but yes, Bus Deregulation certainly accelerated the need to obtain cars. That is now getting worse because its the poorer, low(er) car ownership areas that are seeing the biggest service cuts or fare hikes. At least in 1986-88 it was the poorer areas that suffered the least cuts.
Interesting that you quote 6bph from Middleton to Manchester, as the current figure is 15bph for off-peak direct services (ie. not including less direct Stagecoach/TFGM services or peak time X62). Equally, a 12 minute tram service will only integrate with a 10 minute bus service once an hour! (in paper). Heavy rail is partly irrelevant as Mills Hill is a considerable distance from Middleton centre.......and I gather trains are grossly overcrowded at peak times.

Of course, if we were to better follow European practices, buses would only provide local feeder services into the tram network. That way, useful duplication over the trunk routes into the city would be reduced and the trams could run at frequent intervals with good loads all the time. Instead, we have the usual half-hearted version where buses still trundle around congested roads before also heading into even more congested city centres.

As with most things, we need to keep up with the times and not dwell on how things were 20-30 years ago. The fact is that trams are a popular mode of transport, fast and efficient, with smoother rides than most buses. We're not going to turn the clock back !

Dentonian · 23 Jun 2018

Chester1 said:
15bph and you think a slight reduction would be awful? Even a very reduced level of 6bph is still service that doesn't require looking at timetables or planning ahead. There is plenty of demand to have both at a good frequency! Students in Manchester predominantly use buses over Metrolink, so if anything they support the wishes of the older generations over those in their 20s and 30s. Andy Burnham will be re-elected as long as he is selected as the Labour candidate because no other party stands any chance whatsoever! Last year he got 63% of first preference votes making second preferences irrelevant. You only need to listen to attitudes about the phenomal growth of the city centre to know most complaints by older residents of Greater Manchester about investment are about change full stop and about an inability to accept people having a different lifestyle to them is not an insult on them. There is litterally no other economically viable alternative to high density residential development and a swathe of land surrounding the city centre is an ex industrial wasteland anyway. Its the same for many of the town centres of Greater Manchester
For instance when I bought my flat (not in the city centre) I had to listen to some truely moronic comments from collegues, aquaitances, friends of friends etc because some people can't get their head around someone in their late 20s not trying to have a partner, 2.4 children, a house with garden and a car etc etc like they did (or were desperate for). Of course theres nothing wrong with those things, which may very well be my future! You maybe genuine about not wanting Metrolink in your area but there are plenty of people who moaned that was not in their area and then when the "big bang" extended it into their area they then moaned about it, they basically just need to have stuff to grumble about. If the buses are regulated then there should be sufficient frequency to have a good service level for both. They are useful for different needs and people and the competition between them if regulated should be small. The obvious option would be to replace double deckers with single. What proportion of buses in Middleton heading to Crumpsall and the city centre are currently double deckers?

15 to 6 is not "slight" and how would they work? 3x 17 & 3x 163? In saying that, I know that average loadings on Rochdale Road are much lower than certain other corridors - despite lower fares! Whilst single deckers might work on this corridor, the lack of capacity will play into the hands of the motoring and rail lobbies. But yes, as things stand I believe all Middleton/Rochdale Road services are designated as double-deck operated. A 10 minute service does still need planning ahead, if you are connecting onto a less frequent service. You need to identify the bus that should make the connection and then go out for the one in front! That's what I usually do.

Manchester Metrolink to Middleton (proposed)

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