Manchester Metrolink to Middleton (proposed)

[Bucephalus]

Me thinking way outside of likeliness here, but if the route to Middleton is chosen carefully enough is there potential for a tram to increase bus usage in the surrounding area?

Maybe not, I might just blindly want another tram hehe.

And while the crayons are still out... I have another route, including a 3rd city crossing comprising of street running along the eastern inner ring road (great ancoats st / swan st)...then up Oldham rd followed by a diagonal sidestep across to rochdale rd

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Me thinking way outside of likeliness here, but if the route to Middleton is chosen carefully enough is there potential for a tram to increase bus usage in the surrounding area?

Maybe not, I might just blindly want another tram hehe.

And while the crayons are still out... I have another route, including a 3rd city crossing comprising of street running along the eastern inner ring road (great ancoats st / swan st)...then up Oldham rd followed by a diagonal sidestep across to rochdale rd

The current very hot weather has had something of a detrimental effect on the overhead wires and on Hollyhedge Road in Wythenshawe, a 15mph tram speed limit was imposed, to the annoyance of other road users. Just imagine this same scenario repeated along the line of your new fantasy route.

 

[Clarky]

If street running anywhere up this neck of the woods 15mph would be an improvement unless the tram is segregated it will sit in horrific traffic whichever route they choose, either Rochdale road or Middleton road are stop start all they way through rush hour and beyond.

The current very hot weather has had something of a detrimental effect on the overhead wires and on Hollyhedge Road in Wythenshawe, a 15mph tram speed limit was imposed, to the annoyance of other road users. Just imagine this same scenario repeated along the line of your new fantasy route.

 

[daodao]

Would Rhodes be the only intermediate stop were this line ever built, do you think?

A stop near Victoria Ave/Heaton Park would be justified.

They could run trams into Heaton Park on summer Sundays and for special events, as when the original electric tram service opened in 1903 - the tracks are still extant.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is this thread a development of what seems to be part of an official transport strategy with a proposed time period for completion?

 

[Dentonian]

If street running anywhere up this neck of the woods 15mph would be an improvement unless the tram is segregated it will sit in horrific traffic whichever route they choose, either Rochdale road or Middleton road are stop start all they way through rush hour and beyond.

There are bottlenecks through Blackley and entering the city but my rides along Rochdale Road off peak seem remarkably traffic free.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If construction of the proposed line via mainly from Middleton Road/Bowker Vale, Victoria Avenue and finally Rochdale Road into Middleton took place, what amount of local area road traffic disruption would ensue and also what total time period and total project costs for completion could be envisaged?

 

[shredder1]

On the other hand, there are bus services from Middleton that connect with the Mills Hill railway station and the Manchester Metrolink at Oldham.

Not very good for those of us living in Rhodes and rail services from Mills Hill have a poor record, When I want catch an early train from Piccadilly like the 05.11 Cross Country, or 05.25 Pendolino, I can only get there my either taxi or driving parking in Manchester

 

[shredder1]

If construction of the proposed line via mainly from Middleton Road/Bowker Vale, Victoria Avenue and finally Rochdale Road into Middleton took place, what amount of local area road traffic disruption would ensue and also what total time period and total project costs for completion could be envisaged?

Add to it the savings after completion, in the longer term it would create less car journeys, less pollution, less health issues etc

 

[shredder1]

There are bottlenecks through Blackley and entering the city but my rides along Rochdale Road off peak seem remarkably traffic free.

We have the same problem at the Heaton Park roundabout, traffic coming from the M60 Motorway, 3 into 2 doesnt go.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not very good for those of us living in Rhodes and rail services from Mills Hill have a poor record, When I want catch an early train from Piccadilly like the 05.11 Cross Country, or 05.25 Pendolino, I can only get there my either taxi or driving parking in Manchester

My posting was only concerned with travel from Middleton town centre itself to Mills Hill and to Oldham. It did not form part of an idea from a cross-Middleton route from Bowker Vale and Rhodes to Mills Hill and to Oldham.

Incidentally, perhaps I am giving away my age, but are there many on this thread who remember the 59 bus once running from the Manchester Piccadilly railway station approach through to Bowker Vale, Rhodes, Middleton, Oldham and Shaw?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Add to it the savings after completion, in the longer term it would create less car journeys, less pollution, less health issues etc

In hard cash terms, what total construction completion costs would have to be paid and what annual running costs would be envisaged. Also you have not addressed the other matter of the total time period of construction that I raised.

 

[daodao]

My posting was only concerned with travel from Middleton town centre itself to Mills Hill and to Oldham. It did not form part of an idea from a cross-Middleton route from Bowker Vale and Rhodes to Mills Hill and to Oldham.

Incidentally, perhaps I am giving away my age, but are there many on this thread who remember the 59 bus once running from the Manchester Piccadilly railway station approach through to Bowker Vale, Rhodes, Middleton, Oldham and Shaw?

The 59 bus still runs along Middleton Road, although its route has been slightly altered elsewhere, and (like route 17) it is one of the few bus numbers to have survived unchanged from the previous tramway era.

 

[radamfi]

If street running anywhere up this neck of the woods 15mph would be an improvement unless the tram is segregated it will sit in horrific traffic whichever route they choose, either Rochdale road or Middleton road are stop start all they way through rush hour and beyond.

The A664 and Victoria Avenue are very wide roads so there is plenty of space for tram segregation. There is already a bus lane for most of the route between Victoria Avenue and Middleton.

 

[radamfi]

This may be the case in city centres and south Manchester, but not in the suburbs. Hundreds of thousands are still car less and there would be no problem with parking as they will just park anywhere. Who's going to stop them? Consequently, people acquire cars - which they may or may not insure* - because using it is cheaper, quicker, more convenient and more flexible than using public transport.

* When discussing assertions that less and less young people are driving nowadays - my brother suggested that stats might be skewed by less young people actually learning to drive, passing their test or insuring vehicles. They are still driving.....

Again, you are worrying about car *ownership* when car *usage* is the main issue. You are assuming that car owners will always use the car for all trips. Clearly that can't always be the case, otherwise public transport systems in western Europe would be hardly used.

 

[rebmcr]

If street running anywhere up this neck of the woods 15mph would be an improvement unless the tram is segregated it will sit in horrific traffic whichever route they choose, either Rochdale road or Middleton road are stop start all they way through rush hour and beyond.

Street running up Lightbowne Road would probably be fine, followed by segregated lines alongside Victoria Avenue — the space is there for it, presumably left over from the M66 M60 safeguarding..

 

[jonesy3001]

Just been reading this,
Is there any of the line left that went from oldham werneth to middleton via chadderton or has that been built on?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middleton_Junction_and_Oldham_Branch_Railway

 

[Dentonian]

Again, you are worrying about car *ownership* when car *usage* is the main issue. You are assuming that car owners will always use the car for all trips. Clearly that can't always be the case, otherwise public transport systems in western Europe would be hardly used.

You just aren't getting it! Unless you have disposable cash to burn what possible incentive is there to pay up to 10 times (short trips to Supermarket or GP) as much to use PT or take 2 - 3 times as long (longer trips to work esp. off peak? And that's before we consider reliability, comfort etc.

 

[daodao]

You just aren't getting it! Unless you have disposable cash to burn what possible incentive is there to pay up to 10 times (short trips to Supermarket or GP) as much to use PT or take 2 - 3 times as long (longer trips to work esp. off peak? And that's before we consider reliability, comfort etc.

The only incentive is lack of parking or very expensive parking at one's destination. This is only really applicable in some town and city centres, particularly major conurbations such as Manchester, and major hospitals, where there is limited nearby on-street free parking.

 

[telstarbox]

You just aren't getting it! Unless you have disposable cash to burn what possible incentive is there to pay up to 10 times (short trips to Supermarket or GP) as much to use PT or take 2 - 3 times as long (longer trips to work esp. off peak? And that's before we consider reliability, comfort etc.

Please look at 2011 Census data for "car or van availability" and "method of travel to work" then come back to us.

https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/query/select/getdatasetbytheme.asp?theme=75&subgrp=Quick+Statistics

 

[radamfi]

You just aren't getting it! Unless you have disposable cash to burn what possible incentive is there to pay up to 10 times (short trips to Supermarket or GP) as much to use PT or take 2 - 3 times as long (longer trips to work esp. off peak? And that's before we consider reliability, comfort etc.

So how do you explain the high usage of public transport in many western European cities where car ownership is higher than in GM?

 

[telstarbox]

You just aren't getting it! Unless you have disposable cash to burn what possible incentive is there to pay up to 10 times (short trips to Supermarket or GP) as much to use PT or take 2 - 3 times as long (longer trips to work esp. off peak? And that's before we consider reliability, comfort etc.

Not sure how you've assessed the cost of car use here.

 

[Dentonian]

Not sure how you've assessed the cost of car use here.

Fuel is the only truly variable cost of motoring. Semi variables include depreciation but outside city centres parking is generally free. Current policies seem to be to make all retail parking free soon.

 

[Dentonian]

So how do you explain the high usage of public transport in many western European cities where car ownership is higher than in GM?

Cheaper fares for shorter journeys; higher disposable income; less demonisation of adult bus users; less class and image obsession in general.

 

[Ianno87]

Fuel is the only truly variable cost of motoring. Semi variables include depreciation but outside city centres parking is generally free. Current policies seem to be to make all retail parking free soon.

...out of town retail parking free. Shopping parking most definitely not going that way in Central Cambridge (https://www.cambridge.gov.uk/grand-arcade-car-park)

 

[rebmcr]

Fuel is the only truly variable cost of motoring. Semi variables include depreciation but outside city centres parking is generally free. Current policies seem to be to make all retail parking free soon.

You still have to account for the non-variable costs, or nobody is going to take you seriously.

 

[Dentonian]

Please look at 2011 Census data for "car or van availability" and "method of travel to work" then come back to us.

You still have to account for the non-variable costs, or nobody is going to take you seriously.

On the contrary. If a car is costing money sat on the drive
https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/query/select/getdatasetbytheme.asp?theme=75&subgrp=Quick+Statistics

Is

...out of town retail parking free. Shopping parking most definitely not going that way in Central Cambridge (https://www.cambridge.gov.uk/grand-arcade-car-park)

Context is GM. In Tameside, a £2 maximum has been imposed on Council owned car parks. Retail parking (the majority) is free. Neighbouring Stockport are reducing parking fees, starting with the car park right next to the entrance to the new Interchange site.

 

[mmh]

You still have to account for the non-variable costs, or nobody is going to take you seriously.

It's not that straightforward. If someone owns a car, they are already paying the non-variable costs like insurance whether the car's being used or not, so when people decide whether or not to make a journey by public transport or car they'll consider convenience and speed, and the cost comparison will be the public transport fare against the petrol and parking cost. The other costs of owning the car are irrelevant, they're being paid regardless.

 

[Dentonian]

It's not that straightforward. If someone owns a car, they are already paying the non-variable costs like insurance whether the car's being used or not, so when people decide whether or not to make a journey by public transport or car they'll consider convenience and speed, and the cost comparison will be the public transport fare against the petrol and parking cost. The other costs of owning the car are irrelevant, they're being paid regardless.

Thank goodness for the voice of reason. We have to stop policies effectively forcing car ownership and then the hypocrisy of telling people not to use them.

 

[radamfi]

Cheaper fares for shorter journeys; higher disposable income; less demonisation of adult bus users; less class and image obsession in general.

So it is possible to achieve a respectable modal share for public transport even where car ownership is high. However, in a large conurbation that won't happen unless rail or BRT plays a significant role as long journeys take too long if you have to use stopping buses.

Incomes in first-world countries are high enough so that most people who want a car can afford one. Given that car ownership is already high, there's no way of achieving high PT usage unless car owners use PT. There is certainly no point in trying to boost PT usage by hoping that people will get rid of their car they already have. It is even more crazy to try and maintain the current bus network by hoping that nobody else will buy a car.