Yes - and same for towns outside the "regional centre". The vast majority of those buses are, of course, run at no cost to the tax-payer. In fact, just the opposite as virtually all investment in buses (what little there is) comes from the adult fare payer, as does Fuel Tax, bus station facility charges and other commercial taxes.
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Manchester Metrolink to Middleton (proposed)
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Yes - and same for towns outside the "regional centre". The vast majority of those buses are, of course, run at no cost to the tax-payer. In fact, just the opposite as virtually all investment in buses (what little there is) comes from the adult fare payer, as does Fuel Tax, bus station facility charges and other commercial taxes.
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Encouraged, or forced?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
A difference well noticed. I was trying to highlight the possibilities of such utterly unfair behaviour to those who see tram options as the "only way forward" and would think naught of making people take long walks, ignoring the subtle fact that this current heatwave is not the norm and there can be days of long walks in driving rain, long walks in winter slush and ice to tram stops from areas with poor existing bus service provision and other "such delights".
Your first point is pure theory. Look at any commercial bus route running parallel to Phase III Metrolink and tell me how many of those routes have been reduced or withdrawn - the majority. And has traffic congestion *outside* the city reduced as a result of these trams?
Also, what do you call "long distance"?. Notwithstanding getting to the main road, if bus stops are 300 metres apart and tram stops are (I would think) 1500 metres apart, that suggests an average of 5-6 mins extra walk to the tram (x 2 a day). Then there is the transfer and waiting time at the Interchange point and that's before we get into the argument about seat comfort and the saying that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link! Another car dumped on tramlines at Victoria this morning causing widespread disruption - albeit only for an hour or so.
As explained earlier, the climate in NW England is not particularly harsh compared to places that adopt typically European integrated transport. If the mild British winter is too unpleasant to change, then what about in climates where temperatures regularly drop below -10 degrees Celsius?
Some existing bus passengers may be happy with the current system and it is certainly politically easier to avoid upsetting those people.
Has that comment come straight from the RHA? It is "politically easy" to avoid upsetting any transport user EXCEPT Bus passengers (and pedestrians). Apart from specific attacks on First, where have you seen any politician, Media outlets or strong lobby ever "go into bat" for bus users?
As for the climate; other countries may be far better at looking after people in sub zero temperatures. Are pavements gritted abroad, for instance? As for the other extreme, as we were are experiencing now - I, for one, am struggling with heat exhaustion at present - as I did this time last year - mainly due to walking too far.
There has been little or no attempt at changing the traditional "direct bus" British style of operation over many decades, despite radical changes in regulation and ownership. We had a mix of private and municipal companies, then NBC and PTEs, then deregulation. Throughout all eras, the direct bus has continued to be the fashion. Tyne & Wear PTE made some move towards the European style of operation in the early 80s but elsewhere only tiny attempts at integration were tried. Since 1986 it has been impossible outside London and even London has largely stuck to the traditional British model. Only now that TfL has to implement severe cuts is it rationalising the network so that more people need to change.
Many of the places that suffer bitterly cold winters also "enjoy" scorching hot summers. Not sure what measures other countries have in dealing with walking in hot weather.
Except cross-city services were split in 1986, with cross-town services gradually cut over the last 32 years and in the most "politically inspired" move of all; most services were kicked out of central Manchester in 1995 - and we all know the *real* reason for that! It is significant that many of these services have been restored since, but none from the east of Manchester.
Although, my days of travelling abroad are probably now over, I have spent time in Europe, USA and (much less so) Asia. You will recall from another thread that I recently visited Stockholm, and whilst the temperature there was similar to what Manchester is experiencing now, it was nowhere near as oppressive.
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
Which does actually support my point, which was:
I've already made the point about timed connections.
You obviously have a personal beef with the seats on Metrolink but that shouldn't translate into thinking tram seats are always worse than bus seats. And if the seats are similar, the tram will be more comfortable because it can't swerve like a bus sometimes does and it doesn't suffer from potholes. Failing all else, at least passengers spend less time in them if the journey is quicker!
Bus route changes in GM that have occurred since 1986 have nothing to do with trying to improve integration.
If you have travelled so extensively, surely you will know how integrated transport works outside the UK?
Extremes of weather occur from time to time. Occasionally there is snow. Occasionally there is hot weather. Occasionally there is stormy weather. But most of the time weather in the UK is mild with light rain from time to time. There are probably not that many places in the world that have a less extreme climate than Britain. As an example, I frequent another forum where people around the world discuss ways of saving money. This has made me aware that people in other countries consume far more gas and electricity keeping warm or cool than we do in Britain. Many places use a lot of gas to stay warm in winter and have the air conditioning on most of the time in the summer.
Cross-city routes weren't a significant feature of Manchester bus operation even before deregulation. GMPTE famously had a bus station construction policy, probably one the most comprehensive of its kind in the world, which meant that buses inevitably mostly terminated at Arndale or Piccadilly Gardens. Whereas other cities and even some PTE areas didn't use city centre bus stations for local routes and preferred to use cross-city routes.
Interestingly, having a focus point for buses in big British cities may actually mean people requiring to walk longer distances than their continental counterparts. If someone catches a direct bus to Manchester they will mostly get off in Piccadilly Gardens or Shudehill, and then walk to where they actually want to go. That's not that convenient for a lot of office workers. Some people could get closer to the office by changing onto a tram but that would cost extra. The "sticking plaster" used to mitigate long walks across the city centre is Metroshuttle. In a typical European city, you would probably approach the city centre on a cross-city train and if necessary change to another line to get to your destination. City centres in continental Europe tend to have a mesh of routes meaning that you rarely have to walk far from the nearest stop.
Interestingly, having a focus point for buses in big British cities may actually mean people requiring to walk longer distances than their continental counterparts. If someone catches a direct bus to Manchester they will mostly get off in Piccadilly Gardens or Shudehill, and then walk to where they actually want to go. That's not that convenient for a lot of office workers. Some people could get closer to the office by changing onto a tram but that would cost extra. The "sticking plaster" used to mitigate long walks across the city centre is Metroshuttle. In a typical European city, you would probably approach the city centre on a cross-city train and if necessary change to another line to get to your destination. City centres in continental Europe tend to have a mesh of routes meaning that you rarely have to walk far from the nearest stop.
I suppose "personal beef" is one way of describing bone disease! You still haven't answered the question about what constitutes a "long" journey? I would estimate an average time penalty of 12-15 minute s for the extra walking and waiting for the connection. So if a tram takes 28 mins e
Ashton to Pick Gardens, then it is only better than the bus if the bus takes 40+
216 takes nothing like 40 off peak& before Metrolink construction began was timed at c.32 in the peak. I TS about 6 miles btw.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Extra walking and waiting for the connection are "either or" not "both".
How long is the 216 timed for now? How long would it have been timed for if Metrolink hadn't been built and many of its passengers were still driving? What is the comparable situation on, say, the A62 corridor where Metrolink has a much quicker and more reliable segregated alignment than it does for Ashton? Are the trams running empty on either route?
I'm sorry that you have bone disease but you are just one of the many different "markets" that public transport network needs to cater for. I believe a properly constructed integrated network would do this, though perhaps not with the very frequent direct bus service you currently have. It has been proven that quicker and more reliable journeys by busway, train or tram are more likely to get people out of cars than a traditional unprioritised bus service. The resulting reduction in congestion benefits all public transport users as well as residents who will suffer less pollution.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Whilst not as bad as the notorious Bury to Radcliffe section when the T68 trams were running, are you saying that "hunting" does still not take place anywhere on the Manchester Metrolink system in 2018?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
It was also a problem on the Altrincham line with the M5000s. Haven't been that way in a while but I read somewhere on here that it is now improved. Buses do of course have their own ride comfort issues if called upon to run at similar speeds.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Is there any problems with condition of the track in the tunnel that goes under Heaton Park?
TC60054
Member
Because the service frequency was not relevant to the point which I was wanting to make, which was regarding the length of the vehicles, which is going to be the same network wide unless you're lucky enough to end up on the Altrincham / Bury lines where doubles operate. If I'm looking at the frequency, then the service runs every 12 minutes - therefore connection times from bus to tram are, in my view at least, irrelevant. Your biggest problem would be the tram to bus connection, though that's why you try to keep the buses and the trams running to similar frequencies so that there is always one connection which could be made without having to wait for the next tram to arrive.
Virtually all individual peak hour journeys in GM have different running times, and 216 just about achieves the "frequent intervals" rule, so its impossible to say what the average, or indeed longest journey is. However, it is considerably longer than before the tramline was built, which proves that Metrolink has spectacularly failed to reduce congestion. Don't forget, Ashton and Droylsden aren't exactly thriving towns in terms of either housing or employment, so its not that overall demand has rocketed........except for 19 Premiership matches and numerous Cup & Champions League matches per year.
Sorry; you are generally correct on the first point; my brain isn't functioning properly in the current heatwave!. However, not every one is travelling to a central destination close to a tram stop
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Surely no new Metrolink works will commence until the Trafford Centre line is up and running.
easiest to click on the 'census' tab at the top.
https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/census/2011/data_finder
then go into the 'table finder'.
search for a 2011 table that covers both 'cars and vans' and 'method of travel to work' there are two; both using 2001 census definitions.
you need to select a local area (on the left)
then slect the columns; and rows
then click on 'download' or 'view'.
hop that helps
I imagine the short airport extension to Terminal 2 is next in the queue. For Middleton they have yet to choose a route and go through all the design and statutory processes.
I wonder how much that will cost, and will it have the same ticketing arrangement as the city centre? Come to think of it, it will presumably also be the shortest distance between Metrolink stops outside the city centre.
A third tram platform is being built at Crumpsall, where the Trafford Centre route will terminate. The Manchester Evening News is of the view that this would be the starting point of a line to Middleton. I don't know if that's an official TfGM policy. It would seem odd building a new platform at Crumpsall, then starting the Middleton line at Bowker Vale.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
My answer to that is simple. Just look at the location of the new third platform and then ask yourself...."How does the line proceed onwards from that particular point. Is it proposed to demolish the relatively new houses that were built in the line section under the bridge that takes the road over the Metrolink running lines?"
Not necessarily. A siding would have the legacy value of being able to turn Middleton trams back short should the street-running section to Middleton become blocked (a bit like one of the purposes of the Cornbrook pocket turnback)
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Crumpsall is a terminating point to balance the Trafford service (whether it's the Trafford or some other route that terminates there may depend on how they plan the service in future). The reason to choose it is most liklely because building a bay platform is relatively easy (there was a third platform there once) and it's about the northern limit of where the level of demand justifies more service.
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