How does the lack of capacity play into the hands of the motoring and bus lobbies? If the demand is similar after a Metrolink line opens then the capacity doesn't need to be cut. If bus usage drops then the capacity needs to be reduced. Maybe 6bph would be too greater reduction but it is reasonable alter routes to focus on areas not served by Metrolink and to switch from double to single deck buses to reflect a switch by some passengers from bus to tram? The staffing cost would remain the same but capital costs would be reduced. Metrolink lines are built on the basis that they will opperate at a profit in the long term and the cost of building the lines is loaned against the profits of the established lines and as grants from central government. Its not like trying to speed up bus journey times to encourage more use is popular either. The guided busway and the bus priority systems have received much criticism. Reopening the line to Middleton as heavy rail might please those who wish to see every change since their youth reversed but there would be fewer stations than Metrolink. On the whole I trust TfGM to do a decent job and think they will when they eventually regulate the bus network. There will always be a huge number of people whinging whatever they do, its a national hobby to help people get through their day. Some people will be pleased when a problem is solved but many will just switch immediately to grumbling about the next thing that they don't like that the government doing.
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Manchester Metrolink to Middleton (proposed)
- Thread starter PR1Berske
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How does the lack of capacity play into the hands of the motoring and bus lobbies? If the demand is similar after a Metrolink line opens then the capacity doesn't need to be cut. If bus usage drops then the capacity needs to be reduced. Maybe 6bph would be too greater reduction but it is reasonable alter routes to focus on areas not served by Metrolink and to switch from double to single deck buses to reflect a switch by some passengers from bus to tram? The staffing cost would remain the same but capital costs would be reduced. Metrolink lines are built on the basis that they will opperate at a profit in the long term and the cost of building the lines is loaned against the profits of the established lines and as grants from central government. Its not like trying to speed up bus journey times to encourage more use is popular either. The guided busway and the bus priority systems have received much criticism. Reopening the line to Middleton as heavy rail might please those who wish to see every change since their youth reversed but there would be fewer stations than Metrolink. On the whole I trust TfGM to do a decent job and think they will when they eventually regulate the bus network. There will always be a huge number of people whinging whatever they do, its a national hobby to help people get through their day. Some people will be pleased when a problem is solved but many will just switch immediately to grumbling about the next thing that they don't like that the government doing.
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Motoring and *rail* lobbies. A double decker can carry 90+ pax in the space of two cars; a single decker can carry less than 70 and will take up more space - unless its a Streetlite of E200 in which case capacity is cut further.
The Guided Busway is criticised by politicians because it has rubber tyres. There have been very few other bus priorities introduced in GM recently - ironically, Rochdale Road is probably the only one.
And again, point of order; TFGM will NOT decide whether or not to Re-regulate. TFGM carry out the orders of GMCA. Have you been reading two much Julian Twad (sorry, Peddle)?
You were making a good point until this.
This is complete rubbish reduces the credibility of your other points.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Can I bring a certain matter into the equation. Most contributors to this particular thread will be aware of the vandalism and general anti-social behaviour that has afflicted the Manchester Metrolink system in both the Oldham and Rochdale conurbations in 2018. As Middleton is also in the same geographical area, would it also be subjected to the same type of behaviour?
Probably not if it were to run on street on the main roads, as opposed to the segregated alignments of the Oldham loop or buses running round the estates which are also subject to vandalism. Too many other vehicles passing, including a far higher risk of coming to the attention of the police. Does the Ashton line suffer from such issues?
martin2345uk
Established Member
Ashton suffers different issues, not missiles but marauding gangs of kids setting off the door cocks, mainly prevalent in the school holidays.
The Wythenshawe section of the Airport Line certainly does. I recall some GMP officers responding to an attempt to kick the cab door in, who were very insistent that "they should never have put trams through here".
Does any other similar area have such low car ownership (outside the city centre); a similarly bad climate; poor walking environment and non existent law enforcement? I''m not going to get into health issues as I get the impression too many people on this forum believe all disability and chronic/incurable diseases are self inflicted.
Robertj21a
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Can you explain 'poor walking environment' - and how 'non existent law enforcement' is relevant ?. Is this a case of people who are scared to go out?
The climate in England is not particularly severe. It has mild winters and summers that are not usually very hot. Total rainfall even in the wetter cities in England is lower than or comparable to many places that are considered to have pleasant climates, such as Sydney or Auckland, and heavy rain is rare.
If we narrow our range of cities to those which suffer at least one of your difficulties, which of those achieve high patronage by using stopping buses only? Certainly, there are places with a harsh climate that enjoy high patronage but use a mixed mode approach.
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The other point is that GM no longer only has just stopping buses. The overriding point is that if you (further) slash the only form of public transport within walking distance of the majority of the populous you must also prepare for an increase in car ownership and use and increased isolation of those unable to drive.
Robertj21a
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This seems to be getting more tortuous with every post !
Even accepting that tram stops will usually be spaced out at greater distances than the buses, it still means that a high % of passengers will still be near a tram stop. If this is the same population that is, apparently, disadvantaged (for various reasons) then it's a bit unlikely that they'll suddenly switch to buying/driving a car.
Can you answer my earlier queries above (post 40) ?
Even accepting that tram stops will usually be spaced out at greater distances than the buses, it still means that a high % of passengers will still be near a tram stop. If this is the same population that is, apparently, disadvantaged (for various reasons) then it's a bit unlikely that they'll suddenly switch to buying/driving a car.
Can you answer my earlier queries above (post 40) ?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Middleton has a modern bus station in the town centre and seemingly a very good bus service provision to many areas local to the town..
Clearly it makes sense to alter existing services for optimal co-ordination when a new transport service starts, but it is still necessary to maintain an adequate service to all areas. If that doesn't happen then there is a problem with funding and/or the regulatory system.
Car ownership isn't the problem, car usage is. Public transport is not just to provide a service to those without cars. It is also supposed to be an attractive alternative to the car for some journeys. Most of western Europe has long had near universal car ownership yet comprehensive service still exists. High car ownership came to northern England later than most other parts of western Europe because it lagged behind economically. So bus companies have been able to rely on a huge captive market for buses which hasn't existed in most of western Europe since the 70s. Public transport modal share in many western European cities is still respectable despite near universal car ownership. Car ownership is mostly a function of disposable income. Zurich arguably has the best public transport in the world and Zurich has one of the highest PT modal shares for a city of its size in the world, yet car ownership is still very high because it is a wealthy city.
Right, I think I can now reply again without being told there are less than 5 characters. Car usage will rise exponentially with increased car ownership, especially if needed to reach public transport. As I've repeatedly said, running a car is far cheaper than using public transport and in most cases quicker. Poorer people tend to travel shorter distances to work - assuming they have a steady job. This generally means that buses are much more expensive (especially if you don't work in the city centre) and rail is too slow or simply doesn't exist.
This is where TIF was shown to be a sham. Under TIF proposals, Middleton was designated better bus services and despite the vote, got them. It even got cross-city buses re-instated (163). So now you have higher frequency, comparitively underused buses with relatively cheap fares. That's despite its biggest overspill (Langley) being pretty much flattened in recent years, although that might have been reversed in recent years. It also has a higher than (GM) average percentage of M-Sa daytime services that are subsidised (12, 115/6, 125, 419 etc).
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Is it not the case that there has been quite an amount of new private housing built on the Langley estate?
Could be, but I doubt it will be as populous as when it had numerous high-rise flats.
Did you read my post? It is possible to achieve high public transport mode share even with high car ownership. In most areas, car ownership is already at saturation levels so this question is essentially moot in any case. People will generally acquire a car when they can afford it, even if they enjoy good public transport in their area. The main factors constraining car ownership in 2018 are parking availability at their residence and lack of licence holding.
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Not if it goes via NMGH.
If it took the Bowker Vale alignment, a "Heaton Park East" stop would make sense - close to Sainsbury's/end of Victoria Avenue.
And/or perhaps a Park and Ride stop by the M60 junction, if there's space around there.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
That seems an excellent way to keep the use of public transport firmly in the mind of those who use this mode of transport.
What I meant was that nearly everything in TIF has come to pass - even the cuts - despite the lack of revenue from a C-charge. Same with Hammond ripping up Kickstart the minute he was appointed Transport Secretary.
shredder1
Established Member
I`m not sure the plans dont actually show any proposed stations unusually, just a goods yard at Rhodes.
shredder1
Established Member
The New Road into Manchester has a good service, the Old Road hasnt, bus services also start later to connect to early Manchester trains
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
On the other hand, there are bus services from Middleton that connect with the Mills Hill railway station and the Manchester Metrolink at Oldham.
This may be the case in city centres and south Manchester, but not in the suburbs. Hundreds of thousands are still car less and there would be no problem with parking as they will just park anywhere. Who's going to stop them? Consequently, people acquire cars - which they may or may not insure* - because using it is cheaper, quicker, more convenient and more flexible than using public transport.
* When discussing assertions that less and less young people are driving nowadays - my brother suggested that stats might be skewed by less young people actually learning to drive, passing their test or insuring vehicles. They are still driving.....
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