XC conductor shortages (August 2018)

alansheppard77 · 5 Aug 2018

theking said:
I really do think it's about time that the sunday thing is put to bed.

In this day I can't see how its tolerable that trains are cancelled due to a lack of staff.

The industry already has a lot of resentment from the public this would be an easy win for staff and they would get some public support back and it's not like they would do it for free, they would get compensated for it.

Btw I work for a 7 day toc.

we must be a laughing stock to foreign visitors

RailUK Forums

Moonshot · 5 Aug 2018

If every single train service in the UK was DOO, then a lack of conductors would not actually matter.

Spankthemonkey · 5 Aug 2018

Wilts Wanderer said:
Serious question - what level of service (ie timetable) do you believe the railway should offer on a Sunday? I’m genuinely interested to hear from the staff-side a view on this.

The ironic thing about this is that XC has some of the heaviest % Sunday usage figures due to it not being a huge commuter TOC, yet it does not have compulsory Sunday working. In 2007 part of the XC promise to the dft was to make staff 7 day inclusive. They managed to buy out the drivers but failed with the guards, and it has now reached a point where they probably believe DOO will arrive to save them having to increase salaries to buy the guards into Sundays.

The last wave of industrial action around xmas was caused by the union actually trying to force xc to make Sundays part of the working week for a huge rise in the basic. Now we still have trains being cancelled as a fudge was reached at xmas and Senior Cons now get 1.55x for Sundays and TMs 1.8x but nothing is compulsory. It's a mess and leads to days like today.

dk1 · 5 Aug 2018

Wilts Wanderer said:
Serious question - what level of service (ie timetable) do you believe the railway should offer on a Sunday? I’m genuinely interested to hear from the staff-side a view on this.

I'm all for a good Sunday service. It needs to get somewhere towards Saturday levels from around midday which many routes do have now. This will however need a lot of negotiating not least on rostering of crews between current rostering patterns.

Just to add that I have volunteered to work an extra Sunday today but as yet I haven't had a phone call

dk1 · 5 Aug 2018

Moonshot said:
If every single train service in the UK was DOO, then a lack of conductors would not actually matter.

GA rural & IC routes north of Ely/Ipswich have agreement through to 2025 for an extension but only CDO. The drivers will do the doors but there must be a conductor on board else the train doesn't run.

Bletchleyite · 5 Aug 2018

Moonshot said:
If every single train service in the UK was DOO, then a lack of conductors would not actually matter.

You still need drivers though

dk1 · 5 Aug 2018

alansheppard77 said:
we must be a laughing stock to foreign visitors

Or it will make the French feel quite at home.

nedchester · 5 Aug 2018

dk1 said:
I am afraid that is one of those things. If the then managers of the companies that ever agreed to these conditions is still with us then I should imagine they hang their heads whilst the union reps must have thought Christmas had come early.

Personally my particular employer has got it about right. We have to work our booked Sundays unless cover is available (obviously not in the middle of a fortnights leave) & those that are booked a star Sunday (meaning they are available for anything unless making themselves unavailable before the Thursday cut off point) can be n/a if they so wish. You have to have a two way street & cannot & should not have ever allowed this situation to occur as it will forever come back & bite you on the backside.

We are where we are though & cannot see this being rectified any time soon.

I can because many TOCs want to offer services on Sundays akin to those during the rest of the week.

The unions might kick off about new entrants being offered new contracts but LEGALLY they can do little about it. As long as current staff were guaranteed to keep their existing T&Cs I can’t see a reason for dispute.......or maybe the Rail unions have too much power (and I am pretty left wing). Beware then of a Tory government bringing in even more stringent union legislation.....

jamesst · 5 Aug 2018

1e10 said:
It's certainly possible but currently the TOCs tip toe around the unions on this subject to avoid industrial action.

I think sooner or later the TOCs will bite the bullet and push forward with these sort of changes. The unions will call strikes but so be it, it's their members pay they'll be losing out on. Much like how many TOCs are currently refusing to budge on their positions surrounding the role of the guard and simply allowing the strikes to continue. It'll be the unions that have to compromise eventually..

Said it before but at my toc Aslef have been pushing for Sunday's to be included in the working week whereas it's the company that aren't interested.
Let's not make the mistake of thinking its always the unions that are the bad guys here

PHILIPE · 5 Aug 2018

TOCs would prefer to keep Sundays outside the working week as it would cost them in so as much the Depot's establishments would have to be increased with higher staff and pensionable costs. That's why it is resisted. Also, I believe the DFT have a say in specifying Depot staff numbers.

tony6499 · 5 Aug 2018

PHILIPE said:
TOCs would prefer to keep Sundays outside the working week as it would cost them in so as much the Depot's establishments would have to be increased with higher staff and pensionable costs. That's why it is resisted. Also, I believe the DFT have a say in specifying Depot staff numbers.

That is the correct answer, the TOC's don't want Sundays as part of the working week due to the cost and blame the staff for not working when they have no intention of bringing in contracts that include Sunday.

87015 · 5 Aug 2018

tony6499 said:
That is the correct answer, the TOC's don't want Sundays as part of the working week due to the cost and blame the staff for not working when they have no intention of bringing in contracts that include Sunday.

Many TOCs want it inside but can’t make the five figure sum wanted by Aslef for it would be far more accurate

6Gman · 5 Aug 2018

dk1 said:
Not on the railway they are not.

But they have, and do, exist on the railway. For example different staff will have different travel entitlements.

The unions might object, and might take industrial action, but they cannot veto.

AIUI

dk1 · 5 Aug 2018

6Gman said:
But they have, and do, exist on the railway. For example different staff will have different travel entitlements.

The unions might object, and might take industrial action, but they cannot veto.

AIUI

It just won't happen anytime in the foreseeable future with traincrew.

Travel entitlements are exactly the same for those working for each particular TOC with the exception of us lucky enough to be employed prior to April 1997.

OxtedSignaller · 5 Aug 2018

On Southern OBS now have Sunday as part of the working week the effect is that they are now better paid than their Conductor counterparts as they have a higher basic wage. I understand the reluctance to give it up it can start as let's say rostered 1 in 4 Sundays but before you know it they will have you working 3 in 4 as if Railway shifts are not bad enough already. It's okay for all those working Monday to Friday to says it not a big deal but what's the use in being off in the week when your partner children are at work or school etc.

MichaelAMW · 5 Aug 2018

dk1 said:
That isn't how it works. All down to traincrew/management agreements for the grade. Heaven knows what awful working conditions you'd end up with otherwise. Would be like a load of headless chickens with multiple contracts.

Read what I said: "As long as a contract including Sundays was basically a fair one." That criterion is the back stop that prevents awful working conditions being introduced. The idea of "headless chickens" is nonsense: there are very many different contracts within a TOC already and, just like with similar jobs in very many other places, it would not be difficult at all to have more than one type of contract for a driver. There are plenty of sectors where even each person is on an individual contract and there is no correlation between people at all, but they still get by. I agree that the railway probably can't work like that but it can certainly deal with more than one way of doing things. And if eventually there is some kind of pay deal on offer that requires everyone to work Sundays and it gets voted it, because there are now enough people who do have Sundays in their contract, then that's just about the world moving on. There is no guarantee of a job for life and even less is there one of no changes to existing arrangements. In a lot of sectors when change is needed - and I think this is a pretty poor way to recognise employee loyalty - people are essentially all made redundant and invited to "apply" for the job they already have. *That's* your race to the bottom but asking new recruits to work more flexibly isn't.

Don't get me wrong: I appreciate that losing control of the last day of the week that your job hasn't got first dibs on is a big thing, but there has to be some way to move towards the Sunday service not being such a uncertain operation.

dk1 · 5 Aug 2018

MichaelAMW said:
Read what I said: "As long as a contract including Sundays was basically a fair one." That criterion is the back stop that prevents awful working conditions being introduced. The idea of "headless chickens" is nonsense: there are very many different contracts within a TOC already and, just like with similar jobs in very many other places, it would not be difficult at all to have more than one type of contract for a driver. There are plenty of sectors where even each person is on an individual contract and there is no correlation between people at all, but they still get by. I agree that the railway probably can't work like that but it can certainly deal with more than one way of doing things. And if eventually there is some kind of pay deal on offer that requires everyone to work Sundays and it gets voted it, because there are now enough people who do have Sundays in their contract, then that's just about the world moving on. There is no guarantee of a job for life and even less is there one of no changes to existing arrangements. In a lot of sectors when change is needed - and I think this is a pretty poor way to recognise employee loyalty - people are essentially all made redundant and invited to "apply" for the job they already have. *That's* your race to the bottom but asking new recruits to work more flexibly isn't.

Don't get me wrong: I appreciate that losing control of the last day of the week that your job hasn't got first dibs on is a big thing, but there has to be some way to move towards the Sunday service not being such a uncertain operation.

Unity is one hell of a strength though hence I said headless chickens. I for one detest Sunday as a day & am happy to work every one I can. However it is wonderful to have a choice & that will not be given up easily or cheaply.

ForTheLoveOf · 5 Aug 2018

MichaelAMW said:
Read what I said: "As long as a contract including Sundays was basically a fair one." That criterion is the back stop that prevents awful working conditions being introduced. The idea of "headless chickens" is nonsense: there are very many different contracts within a TOC already and, just like with similar jobs in very many other places, it would not be difficult at all to have more than one type of contract for a driver. There are plenty of sectors where even each person is on an individual contract and there is no correlation between people at all, but they still get by. I agree that the railway probably can't work like that but it can certainly deal with more than one way of doing things. And if eventually there is some kind of pay deal on offer that requires everyone to work Sundays and it gets voted it, because there are now enough people who do have Sundays in their contract, then that's just about the world moving on. There is no guarantee of a job for life and even less is there one of no changes to existing arrangements. In a lot of sectors when change is needed - and I think this is a pretty poor way to recognise employee loyalty - people are essentially all made redundant and invited to "apply" for the job they already have. *That's* your race to the bottom but asking new recruits to work more flexibly isn't.

Don't get me wrong: I appreciate that losing control of the last day of the week that your job hasn't got first dibs on is a big thing, but there has to be some way to move towards the Sunday service not being such a uncertain operation.

I agree entirely. There is a balance to be found - and all sides, be that passengers, TOCs, unions and employees, must compromise to enable this to happen.

But ultimately no-one is happy with the current situation - the passengers don't get the services they are promised in the timetable or when booking, the TOCs have to pay penalties for every cancelled train (and have unhappy customers), the unions are worried about future threats to workers' rights, and the workers face uncertainty, plus there are some who can't get paid to work when they want.

father_jack · 5 Aug 2018

The point always missed about Sundays is how do those who work late Sunday get 12 hours rest to do Monday peak..... Or if you finish late Saturday late and are booked early Monday you can do sweet FA Sunday. Or if you're in the middle of leave on your "booked/expected" Sunday.....etc etc

theironroad · 5 Aug 2018

father_jack said:
The point always missed about Sundays is how do those who work late Sunday get 12 hours rest to do Monday peak..... Or if you finish late Saturday late and are booked early Monday you can do sweet FA Sunday. Or if you're in the middle of leave on your "booked/expected" Sunday.....etc etc

I think someone said there is no expectation of requirement to work a middle Sunday when on 2 weeks rostered annual leave.

Going from a late rostered Saturday to an rostered early monday is poor rostering.

BluePenguin · 5 Aug 2018

theironroad said:
You seriously think the majority of working people in this country go to work on a Sunday?

No of course I don't! You either read my post wrongly or I wasn't clear. I mean the majority of people go to work on a Sunday instead of church these days.

PHILIPE · 5 Aug 2018

theironroad said:
I think someone said there is no expectation of requirement to work a middle Sunday when on 2 weeks rostered annual leave.

Going from a late rostered Saturday to an rostered early monday is poor rostering.

Does that mean people should work permanently lates or where would you get staff from for early Monday morning ? It can't be avoided I'm afraid

dk1 · 5 Aug 2018

theironroad said:
I think someone said there is no expectation of requirement to work a middle Sunday when on 2 weeks rostered annual leave.

Going from a late rostered Saturday to an rostered early monday is poor rostering.

If alternating between lates & earlies with rotating rest days then unless I'm missing something, this will occur every 3rd weekend on average in a roster. How else is it to be avoided?

I mentioned the middle Sunday of a fortnights leave. We are not permitted to work this & who ever would really want to?

whoosh · 6 Aug 2018

I think someone on here doesn't understand what 'collective bargaining' is.

The TOCs are quite happy with running a 7 day railway with not even enough staff for 6 days without overtime being needed. It's cheaper.
For Sundays to be put into the working week you'd need an increase in staff (from the establishment it should be) of around 10%.

Robertj21a · 6 Aug 2018

whoosh said:
I think someone on here doesn't understand what 'collective bargaining' is.

The TOCs are quite happy with running a 7 day railway with not even enough staff for 6 days without overtime being needed. It's cheaper.
For Sundays to be put into the working week you'd need an increase in staff (from the establishment it should be) of around 10%.

Perhaps it's time for the whole idea of Collective Bargaining to be looked at again.

nedchester · 6 Aug 2018

Robertj21a said:
Perhaps it's time for the whole idea of Collective Bargaining to be looked at again.

It will, there is no doubt.

I agree though that the TOCs are going to need to take on more staff to cover for compulsory Sunday's. Both sides need to sort this issue out.

However, as I keep saying if new employees were offered a contract with Sunday in the working week (maybe slightly higher wage?) then that would be a start. Current employees could move to the new contract if they wished.

infobleep · 6 Aug 2018

BluePenguin said:
No of course I don't! You either read my post wrongly or I wasn't clear. I mean the majority of people go to work on a Sunday instead of church these days.

It is ac uall possible to go to work and church, providing your church has multiple services on a Sunday or even additional ones on a Saturday night.

dk1 · 6 Aug 2018

nedchester said:
It will, there is no doubt.

I agree though that the TOCs are going to need to take on more staff to cover for compulsory Sunday's. Both sides need to sort this issue out.

However, as I keep saying if new employees were offered a contract with Sunday in the working week (maybe slightly higher wage?) then that would be a start. Current employees could move to the new contract if they wished.

On the last point, which although a valid one & something I've never known anyone to even consider, on asking this at work today I've been told it goes against all traincrew manning agreements & that any TOC trying it would instantly have a serious industrial dispute on their hands.

LowLevel · 6 Aug 2018

dk1 said:
On the last point, which although a valid one & something I've never known anyone to even consider, on asking this at work today I've been told it goes against all traincrew manning agreements & that any TOC trying it would instantly have a serious industrial dispute on their hands.

It happened at EMT. New starters in their probationary period were basically told that's how it is or we will finish you. There's now 6 different guards contracts. Train managers (committed Sundays), Central Trains senior conductor (No Sundays), EMT senior conductor 2008 - 2012 (committed Sundays), EMT senior conductor 2012-2017 (committed Sundays, additional spare owed turns to make up shortfall in rostered hours, EMT senior conductor 2017 - present (committed Sundays, additional spare owed turns, one year training wage) and Central Trains senior conductor coach (annual salary premium).

You are however quite correct in saying that a) it's a mess and b) it's caused a hell of a lot resentment and ill feeling.

Dave1987 · 6 Aug 2018

If Sunday’s are becoming part of the working week then why doesn’t the city open on a Sunday? Why aren’t offices open Sunday? Why does Parliament not sit on a Sunday? If we are becoming a 24/7 society then surely that should be for everyone?

XC conductor shortages (August 2018)

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