XC conductor shortages (August 2018)

[Tom Quinne]

Personally I would love Sunday to be in my working week, the significant sum it adds to my annual salary would be pensionable, I would be entitled to additional annual leave and my three day would would be a proper one, not a four day Thurs/Fri/Sat/Sun.

Sadly the company won’t make it so, as it would cost them a very large sum per employee.

But hey ho it’s rhe nasty staff isn’t it.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Personally I would love Sunday to be in my working week, the significant sum it adds to my annual salary would be pensionable, I would be entitled to additional annual leave and my three day would would be a proper one, not a four day Thurs/Fri/Sat/Sun.

Sadly the company won’t make it so, as it would cost them a very large sum per employee.

But hey ho it’s rhe nasty staff isn’t it.

But isn't that the point? It shouldn't need to cost the company anything, as Sunday is just another day. The fact you want it as a working day but get extra for it, is what stops it. I'm not saying you shouldn't want extra for it, but I 'm saying you can't blame the company for it.

Retail, by and large, don't pay extra for Sundays, having phased it out. All new starters had it in their contracts as just another day, only the old-timers get double time and don't have to work it. But, of course, now there is so few of them, they don't get offered Sundays!

Of course, compare the railways with another industry and people say "It is a race to the bottom" the trouble is that Retail is a dyeing trade-look at the high street. Better to have a job and work Sundays rather than no job is their thoughts.

As railway jobs are fairly safe, they can afford to be more picky-and why should they not be? Of course, things will change, they always do. But it may well take a very long time. But the day will come at some point that rail staff will be glad to take anything to keep jobs. One day we will be tagged and have e-tickets implanted in us, and be whisked away on driverless trains and say "do you remember guards and drivers?". Well, we wont, but our children's children's children might!

 

[pompeyfan]

The reason why people would want to be paid more to work Sundays is because as it stands they could be on £35k for 35 hours a week, Sunday’s outside. If you bring Sundays inside you could then be on £42k for a 42 hour week. Note those numbers have been pulled out of the air.

 

[Robertj21a]

The reason why people would want to be paid more to work Sundays is because as it stands they could be on £35k for 35 hours a week, Sunday’s outside. If you bring Sundays inside you could then be on £42k for a 42 hour week. Note those numbers have been pulled out of the air.

I still can't understand what is to stop a TOC offering existing staff the *option* of having Sundays included, in exchange for a pay increase. If they are still short of enough Sunday drivers then *new* recruits have it as part of their T & C's when joining.
I know everybody on here will say 'Oh no, the union will never agree.'.......etc etc - but why shouldn't they ?. Isn't the union supposed to be representing the will of the membership ?

 

[dk1]

I still can't understand what is to stop a TOC offering existing staff the *option* of having Sundays included, in exchange for a pay increase. If they are still short of enough Sunday drivers then *new* recruits have it as part of their T & C's when joining.
I know everybody on here will say 'Oh no, the union will never agree.'.......etc etc - but why shouldn't they ?. Isn't the union supposed to be representing the will of the membership ?

Unity is strength & they fight for collective terms & conditions for the membership. No way are they going to accept anything that undermines or splits the membership, why would they? Better to stick together to fight for the best terms & conditions you possibly can. Dangerous gate to leave open that one.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Sundays really have become the new Boxing Day on this forum, but the whole us and them thing thats appeared on this forum does get a little tiresome sometimes.

Personally i quite like working Sundays, but as some have suggested having Sunday working in contracts and leaving the emotion aside how would you like it to work? The pros for having increased an increased Sunday service is obvious but these come with their own sets of cons.

At companies with Sunday outside the working week train crew are on a 35 hour week Monday to Saturday, so you can either buy (either lump sum or increased salary) the Sunday agreement from the train crew and effectively make Sunday enforced overtime or you can make the 35 hour week Monday to Sunday. Both of these have downsides, to go down the enforced overtime route will cost the toc money as the salary of every member of train crew would increase along with pension contributions etc etc, this obviously has to be paid for somewhere along the line either through increased subsidy or increased ticket prices. And if you go down the 35 hour week over the whole week route initially at least you'd be spreading what is currently an isolated albeit annoying problem from one day a week to over the whole week if you're taking people off Wednesday morning commuter services for example to cover a shift on a Sunday.

Obviously the long term solution would be to employ more train crew but this too costs money and the billion dollar question is who pays for it. So rather than letting this descend into union bashing or accusations of 'you want people to do what you're not prepared to do yourself', how would you solve this issue in a cost effective way that works for the toc the staff and the passengers?

 

[dk1]

Who mentioned Boxing Day?

There's another one. Won't be long now

 

[E16 Cyclist]

I still can't understand what is to stop a TOC offering existing staff the *option* of having Sundays included, in exchange for a pay increase. If they are still short of enough Sunday drivers then *new* recruits have it as part of their T & C's when joining.
I know everybody on here will say 'Oh no, the union will never agree.'.......etc etc - but why shouldn't they ?. Isn't the union supposed to be representing the will of the membership ?

From a practical point of view who is going to pay for it? As thats whats stopping a Toc from doing that, also from a practical point of view having staff on different contracts would become a rostering nightmare, its manageable with a handful of employees but not with hundreds of train crew

 

[Hadders]

Retail is a big user of part time which manages the peaks and troughs across the working week.

This isn't really an option for drivers and guards, the unions generally won't allow recruitment of part timers and it would end up costing the rail companies more.

Therefore the status quo continues.

 

[Robertj21a]

Unity is strength & they fight for collective terms & conditions for the membership. No way are they going to accept anything that undermines or splits the membership, why would they? Better to stick together to fight for the best terms & conditions you possibly can. Dangerous gate to leave open that one.

This highlights the issues that arise when unions simply don't want to move forward at all. If there was a will for some common sense progress than I'm sure a union could make the effort, but they would much prefer to not co-operate. It's not a question of needing to 'stick together' as there's no real change to cause them any concern. Existing staff can choose whichever option suits them best (probably quite an improvement for many) and new staff join on terms including Sundays. It's not rocket science is it ?
The Collective Bargaining isn't affected as any future changes are applied equally/pro-rata, as appropriate.

 

[6Gman]

Obviously the long term solution would be to employ more train crew but this too costs money and the billion dollar question is who pays for it. So rather than letting this descend into union bashing or accusations of 'you want people to do what you're not prepared to do yourself', how would you solve this issue in a cost effective way that works for the toc the staff and the passengers?

My personal view is that it should go down this road by being written into the franchise specification. Of course, that does raise the further problem of sorting out the agreement with the TUs within the same timescale.

 

[kevconnor]

the unions generally won't allow recruitment of part timers

What are the main points of objection from the unions to recruiting part time employees? Is this grades/roles/union specific?

Forgive my ignorance, work for NHS so no personal knowledge of specifics of culture of unions within Railways.

 

[pompeyfan]

This highlights the issues that arise when unions simply don't want to move forward at all. If there was a will for some common sense progress than I'm sure a union could make the effort, but they would much prefer to not co-operate. It's not a question of needing to 'stick together' as there's no real change to cause them any concern. Existing staff can choose whichever option suits them best (probably quite an improvement for many) and new staff join on terms including Sundays. It's not rocket science is it ?
The Collective Bargaining isn't affected as any future changes are applied equally/pro-rata, as appropriate.

It doesn’t do that at all, XC conductors went on strike at the beginning of the year to try and get Sunday’s included in the working week, as it meant a pay increase because the working week would have been extended by 7 odd hours.

The unions have no issues with crew having Sundays inside. I believe there’s a few TOCs were Sundays can be taken unpaid if there is sufficient cover/spares/FD workers.

 

[PHILIPE]

If you look at it logically, we have a 7 day railway so we should have a 7 day roster. That means Sundays in the working week but as it would cost more than the present arrangements then there is the resistance from the TOCs

 

[Robertj21a]

If you look at it logically, we have a 7 day railway so we should have a 7 day roster. That means Sundays in the working week but as it would cost more than the present arrangements then there is the resistance from the TOCs

In any other business, the operator would be able to recruit *new* staff on revised T&C's, so that (eventually) Sundays got covered properly. If turnover of staff is low they could offer an option to existing staff. Surely, it's just the union that doesn't want that ? Have the TOCs said that they don't want that ?

 

[nedchester]

In any other business, the operator would be able to recruit *new* staff on revised T&C's, so that (eventually) Sundays got covered properly. If turnover of staff is low they could offer an option to existing staff. Surely, it's just the union that doesn't want that ? Have the TOCs said that they don't want that ?

Legally they can take on new staff with revised T&Cs. The union can do nothing about new recruits but they can represent them once employed.

It also has to be accepted by the TOCs that they’ll have to take on more staff to cover for this which will increase their costs.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

In any other business, the operator would be able to recruit *new* staff on revised T&C's, so that (eventually) Sundays got covered properly. If turnover of staff is low they could offer an option to existing staff. Surely, it's just the union that doesn't want that ? Have the TOCs said that they don't want that ?

I’ll ask again then, who is going to pay for it?

 

[LowLevel]

I've managed to lose precisely 1 Sunday in all the time I've been a guard. That was because I did rosters a favour in return. Except in November when people want money for Christmas we are always short having been following the advocated method of changing new starter contracts for the last *10* years.

The reason? We have circa 40-45 'no Sundays' people, some of whom who don't work Sundays at all. Their jobs are automatically thus uncovered. Those that do work have rosters by the throat because they refuse to work their booked job and will come in for a couple of hours or nothing. Rosters have to sort them out first before they'll allow yours to be covered. The railway doesn't churn staff like retail so the pace of change is glacial.

The negatives are huge too. I can't book annual leave for a Sunday. I don't know until a few days before if it's covered or not. We have a lot of seasonal Sunday work at my depot so in summer until the roster is published a week or two before it starts it's hard to work out when you might be required (which can be all too frequently).

As it happens I don't mind working Sundays - long distance trains are rubbish with people moving tonnes of stuff around etc but the rest is OK. More people though prefer time with their families when they're not at school or whatever and it can be very hard to plan anything for that.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Legally they can take on new staff with revised T&Cs. The union can do nothing about new recruits but they can represent them once employed.

It also has to be accepted by the TOCs that they’ll have to take on more staff to cover for this which will increase their costs.

This sounds fine in theory, but as we’ve just seen with the introduction of new timetables it’s likely to cause mayhem at least initially if you are rostering a large number of staff some with different contracts to others

 

[Robertj21a]

I’ll ask again then, who is going to pay for it?

The TOC - who else could it be ?

I think the difference is that you're assuming it will cost them a fortune whereas I think they would be able to achieve good results at a satisfactory price, by careful planning and attention to detail. As with any business (for once the rail industry isn't unique), there are the unavoidable, and costly, overheads of employing extra staff, but you gain so many other things along the way - reduced overtime bill, less industrial action, less stressed/tired staff, public confidence in services running as scheduled etc etc. Who knows, it might even make the union happy.........
There's no extra hours being worked, just a better balance among a slightly increased workforce.

 

[Robertj21a]

This sounds fine in theory, but as we’ve just seen with the introduction of new timetables it’s likely to cause mayhem at least initially if you are rostering a large number of staff some with different contracts to others

It may do initially, like many things that are new to any industry. There's no obvious reason at all why rostering can't cope with changes - if they can't then they must have the wrong people, or systems, in place.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

The TOC - who else could it be ?

I think the difference is that you're assuming it will cost them a fortune whereas I think they would be able to achieve good results at a satisfactory price, by careful planning and attention to detail. As with any business (for once the rail industry isn't unique), there are the unavoidable, and costly, overheads of employing extra staff, but you gain so many other things along the way - reduced overtime bill, less industrial action, less stressed/tired staff, public confidence in services running as scheduled etc etc. Who knows, it might even make the union happy.........
There's no extra hours being worked, just a better balance among a slightly increased workforce.

If it was that simple it would’ve been dealt with 20+ years ago, the toc whether we like it or not is there to make money and as crazy as it seems it’s cheaper for them to keep the status quo than it is to employ more staff. And train crew that have legally binding contracts that put things like Sunday’s and Boxing Day outside their contract would need to have that agreement bought off them, if you ever wondered why some companies pay their drivers a lot it’s because they bought their terms and conditions off them in return for a higher salary,

Therefore the dft has to show some leadership, they seem to like to micromanage the industry but then hide behind the private companies when things get difficult. I suspect who’ll pay is both the taxpayer in increased subsidy and the passenger with higher ticket prices (advance tickets not available on Sunday for example)

If it was simply a case of the Union didn’t want it, it wouldn’t have gone on for so many years

 

[ComUtoR]

The TOC - who else could it be ?

The Passengers. The TOC will simply increase the ticket prices. Ultimately how much are YOU willing to pay for the increase in costs. Would you be prepared to pay a specific Sunday service premium on a ticket bought on a Sunday to cover the costs and to not affect other ticket prices ?

I still can't understand what is to stop a TOC offering existing staff the *option* of having Sundays included, in exchange for a pay increase.

This, in some way, is what they have now. Sundays are offered to those who are both happy to work it and for extra remuneration.

 

[Mag_seven]

The Passengers. The TOC will simply increase the ticket prices. Ultimately how much are YOU willing to pay for the increase in costs. Would you be prepared to pay a specific Sunday service premium on a ticket bought on a Sunday to cover the costs and to not affect other ticket prices ?

Why should the customer have to pay more for existing Sunday services that have already been advertised in the timetable?

 

[Carlisle]

Retail is a big user of part time which manages the peaks and troughs across the working week.

This isn't really an option for drivers and guards,

Quite a few railway professions including some train crew do job share, which to all intents and purpose s is part time working

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Why should the customer have to pay more for existing Sunday services that have already been advertised in the timetable?

Most of the fare capping is related to the Monday to Friday commuter traffic and so the toc could impose more ticket restrictions on Sunday travel or stop selling advance tickets all together

 

[theironroad]

Quite a few railway professions including some train crew do job share, which to all intents and purpose s is part time working

The train crew who job share now have all done years as a full time employee and their is no automatic right to a job share, it's considered on business merits and whether the people wanting the job share have what the employer consider good reasons.

 

[Robertj21a]

The Passengers. The TOC will simply increase the ticket prices. Ultimately how much are YOU willing to pay for the increase in costs. Would you be prepared to pay a specific Sunday service premium on a ticket bought on a Sunday to cover the costs and to not affect other ticket prices ?



This, in some way, is what they have now. Sundays are offered to those who are both happy to work it and for extra remuneration.

Well it clearly isn't. If staff aren't contracted to work Sundays then they can hold management to ransom. That has to stop.

 

[ComUtoR]

Why should the customer have to pay more for existing Sunday services that have already been advertised in the timetable?

Because, just like any business, the cost is always met by the customer. If you are increasing the cost to the business it WILL be passed on. The choice becomes how that is paid for. Either by a general increase across the board so everyone takes the hit or add a premium somewhere. Many businesses will charge a premium for specific additional services. IF we want the railway to act like any other business then we must accept their business practices too.

The customer ALWAYS ends up paying.

 

[Robertj21a]

If it was that simple it would’ve been dealt with 20+ years ago, the toc whether we like it or not is there to make money and as crazy as it seems it’s cheaper for them to keep the status quo than it is to employ more staff. And train crew that have legally binding contracts that put things like Sunday’s and Boxing Day outside their contract would need to have that agreement bought off them, if you ever wondered why some companies pay their drivers a lot it’s because they bought their terms and conditions off them in return for a higher salary,

Therefore the dft has to show some leadership, they seem to like to micromanage the industry but then hide behind the private companies when things get difficult. I suspect who’ll pay is both the taxpayer in increased subsidy and the passenger with higher ticket prices (advance tickets not available on Sunday for example)

If it was simply a case of the Union didn’t want it, it wouldn’t have gone on for so many years

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say. Is a TOC on record as saying they'd prefer to keep Sundays to just volunteers ? - or is it yet another union ruse ?.
I would hope that future franchise specs cover these issues in much greater detail so that passengers are put at the top of the list of requirements, not down the bottom after everyone else has taken their cut.