Robertj21a
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XC conductor shortages (August 2018)
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Of course if the TOC tries the harmonise all that lot then the tempation will be to try to bring everything down to the lowest common denominator which will not go down well with the unions (quite rightly). Still needs sorted out though!
nedchester
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Happens elsewhere with no dispute because current employees can keep their terms and conditions. Therefore any dispute would almost certainly be deemed illegal.
nedchester
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Because there isn’t the demand for it!
There is the demand for Rail travel on a Sunday. Simple really.
There was a gap of 4 hours between services from Cardiff to Nottingham meaning three successive services were cancelled. Also the final train of the day was cancelled. The railways run a seven day service so sufficient drivers must be rostered to work. The whole thing is ludicrous. What would be said if a member of the staff was taken ill went to the hospital and found that all the doctors and nurses had decided not to work on that Sunday. Cross country need to get this sorted
If you make Sunday working compulsory then when Sunday working is not required such as engineering works , Christmas etc then you will still need to pay everyone now you just cancel the work and pay nobody. If Sunday working as part of a working week was beneficial for all train crews then it would have been brought in a long time ago by the TOCs or they would have at least attempted to do so
Robertj21a
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With respect, I don't think we are all discussing what may be 'beneficial for all train crews', we are discussing how to ensure that Sunday services are operated properly for the travelling public - i.e according to the published timetables.
I don't remember there ever being a problem with staffing weekend services 50 years ago. What has changed that makes it different and why only for some areas and not others? I'll suggest privatisation and its consequences, plus much higher pay for a basic week. In my young days there was immense competition for overtime and weekend working..
nedchester
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Indeed. It could be argued that because the pay is now higher then train crew can afford not to work Sundays leading to this situation.
dk1
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When you say elsewhere are you talking outside the railway & drivers/guards in particular?
dk1
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I've always said this. In the late 80s I was a roster clerk & the Sunday available list is what is now the NOT available list. Apart from the odd few nobody is hungry for overtime anymore like they once where. I'm not complaining as I like working Sundays & I like the enhanced basic rate of pay even more.
nedchester
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Yes.
I’m unaware that employment law applies differently to Railway workers compared to the rest of the population........
dk1
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No need to be sarcastic. We have agreements that management & staff side have to adhere to & the minutes are constantly scrutinised.
For example recently through ill health a driver needed reduced hours & specific diagrams. Now that is decided by the local reps not management. The person concerned even asked what was the point of certain managers as they have no power to decide anything to do with link structures. That is how things work with a strong trade union & anything that goes against these agreements is deemed to be in dispute. Even action short of a strike such as withdrawal of free Day working (again this overtime is sanctioned by ASLEF for drivers) can be hugely disruptive. Any TOC worth its weight will not want to upset the grades they rely on the most to operate trains.
nedchester
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I suspect there will come a point where ASLEF, for example, will be deemed to have bitten off more than it can chew. You can guarantee that if the current Tory government wasn’t preoccupied with Brexit they’d be looking very carefully at some of these “agreements”.
As intimated above it seems EMT have already made steps in this direction with traincrew and it will happen elsewhere.
It may end up with a big dispute but unions would need to be very careful to keep within the law here especially if they are not changing the conditions of current employees.
dk1
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I wouldn't be so sure. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
nedchester
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Indeed but I remember the printworkers dispute in the 1980s......they thought they had a strong union with some restrictive practices which was thought couldn’t be changed........
dk1
Veteran Member
We are nothing like that. As long as both sides abide by the joint agreements then we can all get a long famously. No need to rock the boat.
I think you've answered your own question to be honest. In the 1970s my driver father would work every Sunday he could in order to pay the mortgage and feed the family. Driver pay was a lot less then, even allowing for inflation.
Didn’t they have to give up commission for that though?
I've sat on both sides of the table in the past. Secretary (Staff Side) for a consultation on relocation. Management side explaining why Crewe (of all places ! ! ) didn't get jobs that should really have been theirs*. What dk1 says is quite correct; for most of the time it's partnership working to mutual benefit (oh, and my father was an ASLEF Branch Secretary). BUT I think something will have to change re Sunday working in the not too distant future.
* They'd been given the work, then handed it back "no traincrew available" 48hrs before the train ran.
OxtedSignaller
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They get 50p a ticket where as Guards get 5%. All the Terms and Conditions were up for negotiation and the company was I believe willing to pretty much keep the status quo if that resolved the dispute however the RMT for obvious reasons refused to negotiate and take collective bargaining rights. It's going to be interesting seeing what happens this year as the current pay deal finished this year so will OBS be done separately seeing as they have no union representation.
Rail Blues
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By 21st century I assume you mean treat the workers like dog muck in the sole of your shoe? This race to the bottom mentality is petty and unhelpful.
I have in many respects rubbish working conditions with a workload far in excess of what an be accomplished within the contracted hours with unpaid weekend working the norm. Do I want to drag everyone down to my level? No, I only wish my union was as well organised and pro active as the rail unions were in securing decent conditions.
No-one is suggesting that; such a claim is at the very least unhelpful.
Well it seems to be what quite a few want on here. ‘Workers in the wider economy are treated like dirt so why so rail workers be exempt from that’ seems to be the attitude from many on this forum.
father_jack
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A twist on the story......
TEMPORARY CLOSURE OF DERBY STATION, PAYMENT OF STAFF, SENIOR CONDUCTORS - CROSS COUNTRY
I write further to my previous Circular (IR/297/18) 28th June 2018. As you are aware, our Cross Country Senior Conductor members were being balloted over the company’s decision to offer certain rest day premiums to selected grades, whilst excluding others. Despite the unions best efforts the company have failed to guarantee that our members would be treated equally and receive the same payments and working arrangements. The ballot has now closed and our members returned an overwhelming ‘Yes’ vote that will have no doubt sent the company a clear message that their current position is unacceptable. A number of meetings have taken place and the company do not believe that our Senior Conductor members should be in receipt of any improved payments or premiums. Our union negotiating team put forward a set of proposals that would have allowed us to find a resolution to this dispute. However, the company has outright rejected our counter-proposals.
The National Executive Committee has considered this matter and believes that the only way forward now is to take industrial action. Therefore, our Senior Conductor members are instructed to take continuous industrial action short of a strike as outlined below:-
With effect from 00:01 Hours on Wednesday 15th August 2018, until further notice, our Cross Country Senior Conductor members are instructed not to work any overtime or rest days (this includes Sundays).
We must stand shoulder to shoulder during this dispute and not allow the company to think it is acceptable to give preferential treatment to certain grades. I urge you all to support this action and send Cross Country a clear message that what they are doing is unacceptable.
I trust this keeps you fully advised and I will inform you of any further developments on this issue when they arise. I would be most grateful if you could please bring the contents of this circular to the attention of your members.
Yours sincerely
Mick Cash
General Secretary
TEMPORARY CLOSURE OF DERBY STATION, PAYMENT OF STAFF, SENIOR CONDUCTORS - CROSS COUNTRY
I write further to my previous Circular (IR/297/18) 28th June 2018. As you are aware, our Cross Country Senior Conductor members were being balloted over the company’s decision to offer certain rest day premiums to selected grades, whilst excluding others. Despite the unions best efforts the company have failed to guarantee that our members would be treated equally and receive the same payments and working arrangements. The ballot has now closed and our members returned an overwhelming ‘Yes’ vote that will have no doubt sent the company a clear message that their current position is unacceptable. A number of meetings have taken place and the company do not believe that our Senior Conductor members should be in receipt of any improved payments or premiums. Our union negotiating team put forward a set of proposals that would have allowed us to find a resolution to this dispute. However, the company has outright rejected our counter-proposals.
The National Executive Committee has considered this matter and believes that the only way forward now is to take industrial action. Therefore, our Senior Conductor members are instructed to take continuous industrial action short of a strike as outlined below:-
With effect from 00:01 Hours on Wednesday 15th August 2018, until further notice, our Cross Country Senior Conductor members are instructed not to work any overtime or rest days (this includes Sundays).
We must stand shoulder to shoulder during this dispute and not allow the company to think it is acceptable to give preferential treatment to certain grades. I urge you all to support this action and send Cross Country a clear message that what they are doing is unacceptable.
I trust this keeps you fully advised and I will inform you of any further developments on this issue when they arise. I would be most grateful if you could please bring the contents of this circular to the attention of your members.
Yours sincerely
Mick Cash
General Secretary
Killingworth
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Currently on XC 16.35 from Newcastle for Plymouth, except it's not going beyond Sheffield today, Tuesday, due to lack of train crew.
Spankthemonkey
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What i don't understand is that the SCs voted against harmonisation years ago, why are they complaining now that they are being treated differently? Different grades different pay deals surely? Are cleaners striking for a similar deal? Not saying i support any particular arguement, I'm just struggling to understand the reasoning here.
According to @Robertj21a the OBS don’t need any union representation so surely they will get a good deal if he is correct!
What utter rubbish! If I need access to a Solicitor/financial advisor/plumber/electrician etc on a weekend then in the ‘modern world’ with ‘modern working practices’ they should change their working hours to suit when I want them. Remember the world is changing and it seems you want it to change for everyone except you!
Perhaps they moved half their conductors to a new role and then found a year down the line as folks left or moved jobs they did not have enough conductors anymore. And while they might advertise for more, it still takes a few months to train new ones up.
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