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HS2 Station Designs Revealed

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edwin_m

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But what do you mean 'upgrade'? The problem we've found is that meaningful upgrades are often as difficult and expensive as full-blown new lines. The Birmingham-Bristol line needs separation between fast and slow services before you can meaningfully talk of speeding up existing fast trains, and the only practical way of doing that would be to build a totally new pair of tracks along most, if not all, of its length. Therefore, you're really talking about a new high speed line as part of an even larger national network.

I think there should definitely be wider consideration of our trunk InterCity network in future. Even if it will take decades to build and no concrete route options have been identified, there's still benefit from a planning perspective. If the original HS2 reports had also considered what to do about the TransPennine corridor (rather than just listing it as a nebulous upgrade programme) then we might have much more clarity on what junctions or passive provision HS2 Phase 2b needs to include.

The right way to do this is to be expansive rather than restrictive. It means seriously considering the future of lines that we're currently in the process of upgrading, like the GWML. I think any Birmingham-Bristol high speed line would definitely need to be considered alongside a new Bristol-London line, as they'd certainly share the expensive infrastructure in and about Bristol and any further extensions into the West Country.
Agreed. Passive provision for junctions ought to be cheap, just a straight bit of track in the right place, but if the aligment isn't designed for it then it becomes much more costly and disruptive to add the junction later.

Hopefully NPR will get in and include the necessary junctions in HS2 phase 2, but with the phase 1 bill enacted it's probably too late for anything in Birmingham now.
 
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EastisECML

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Perhaps I get too attached to these things but I'll always be bitterly disappointed Arup's Grand Central idea was never taken forward. And seeing the proposed Curzon Street station just adds to that bitter disappointment. Nothing wrong with the visual appeal of the station, but the whole separate terminal cut off from the local lines next to it just seems to anti-integration. They had a blank slate of land and tracks to create a new hub but HS2 has only ever been about HS2 and nothing else. I don't understand why this is the case. Curzon Street is going to be both a blessing and a curse to Birmingham unless they get local trains stopping there as well. This would seem a very good time to safeguard space beneath the station for a cross city tunnel and station. Antwerp Centraal is a very good example of what I'm thinking of.
 

LeeLivery

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300,000 passengers a day does sound rather a lot to me but not mathmatically impossible.

Lets assume 7tph are 400m trains and 2tph are 200m trains.

Remember that there are 9tph arrivals and 9tph departures each hour. That gives us a theoretical passenger figure of 19,800 per hour:
7tph arrivals of 1,100 passengers
2tph arrivals of 550 passengers
7tph departures of 1,100 passengers
2tph departures of 550 passengers

An operating day of 14 hours with 9tph arrivals and departures 8am - 8pm is possible with 2 more hours of departures from 6am-8am and 2 more hours of arrivals from 8pm - 10pm gives us 16 x 19,800 per hour or 316,800 passengers.

Operating hours could well be a little longer than that as well but occupancy levels above 80% all day are likely to be very tricky to achieve. Would like to see a breakdown of where they see the 300k per day coming from. Would certainly need some competitive demand responsive off peak pricing structures to deliver anywhere near this.

Well, that actually being achieved would be quite something.

Just means they’ve listed the potential capacity doesn’t it? I dare say if you calculated Waterloo’s theoretical ‘all day capacity’ it would be an off the scale number as well...

Indeed.

Also it’s 2033 over 15 years away so numbers maybe a lot higher.

If it was New Street, I wouldn't be so skeptical. But for just one of what will be Birmingham's 4 termini, that's quite a figure. London Euston HS2 must be even higher. I just can't see that happening.
 

Ianno87

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Well, that actually being achieved would be quite something.



Indeed.



If it was New Street, I wouldn't be so skeptical. But for just one of what will be Birmingham's 4 termini, that's quite a figure. London Euston HS2 must be even higher. I just can't see that happening.

Well, you need the station designs to be able to cope with the length and frequency of trains the network is being design to shift around. Last thing you'd want is to have a network for 400m trains flying around, but rendered unworkable by the station design.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Doesn't Curzon Street's design look a lot like the mockup of what Euston's HS2 could look like:

Euston's Design proposed in 2015
grimshaw-architects-hs2-london-euston-dezeen-2364-hero-852x479.jpg


The Design by Grimshaw and WSP for Curzon Street station
17093_CURZON_Dusk_homepage-1400x631.jpg
 

urbophile

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You can see the former Curzon Street building from the second picture in this article:

https://www.birminghampost.co.uk/ne...irmingham-solhulls-hs2-rail-stations-15256464

Also document of Curzon Street design:

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/...2_Curzon+Street_A5+Brochure_V1-compressed.pdf

and within the document it says:


Also from Page 10 you can see the former building.
I wonder what the late Piloti (Gavin Stamp) of Private Eye would have made of it? From the picture it looks as if the 19th century building is being sidelined to say the least. The new design would be impressive and effective if it didn't look as if it was relegating its embarrassing elder relative to the corner of the room. Not quite as disastrous as demolishing the Euston Arch, but it looks like a great opportunity missed.
 

swt_passenger

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I wonder what the late Piloti (Gavin Stamp) of Private Eye would have made of it? From the picture it looks as if the 19th century building is being sidelined to say the least. The new design would be impressive and effective if it didn't look as if it was relegating its embarrassing elder relative to the corner of the room. Not quite as disastrous as demolishing the Euston Arch, but it looks like a great opportunity missed.
I suspect the old Curzon St building just isn’t big enough to form a useful part of a modern station. It looks to be about 20 x 20 metres?
 

edwin_m

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The priorities are to accommodate a 400m train and have the best interchange to Moor Street and New Street. The old building isn't well positioned to achieve this.
 

Bletchleyite

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Building looks nice but is that a New St style zoning thing, requiring connecting passengers to go through ticket barriers? I realise why it was unavoidable at New St, but for a new-build it's stupid.
 

HSTEd

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Building looks nice but is that a New St style zoning thing, requiring connecting passengers to go through ticket barriers? I realise why it was unavoidable at New St, but for a new-build it's stupid.

I think it might just be dividing the station up to allow people to avoid walking long distances along the platform, which is important because of the long train lengths.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think it might just be dividing the station up to allow people to avoid walking long distances along the platform, which is important because of the long train lengths.

Yeah, I've since looked at the photo again and that does seem to be the case.

Also good that there doesn't seem to be any pictures of airport style security, which would be a concern.
 

deltic

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Massive missed opportunity - HS2 billions over budget and here you have probably one of the best located stations in the country - easy reach to Heathrow, central London and the rest of the UK via HS2, Great Western and relatively easy link to Clapham Junction and hence most other parts of southern England. The station should be covered in 50 storey office blocks/hotels etc that would have more than paid for the station.

And why has virtually no-one in the station mock up pictures have any luggage or is over 60?
 

59CosG95

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The station should be covered in 50 storey office blocks/hotels etc that would have more than paid for the station.
Why? The foundations for a station of that nature would presumably have to be much larger/more substantial than those currently proposed, and the environment within the finished station would be godawful - similar in nature to Paris-Montparnasse, Birmingham New Street, New York Penn and others like them.
 

deltic

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Why? The foundations for a station of that nature would presumably have to be much larger/more substantial than those currently proposed, and the environment within the finished station would be godawful - similar in nature to Paris-Montparnasse, Birmingham New Street, New York Penn and others like them.
Because any way to reduce the cost of HS2 should be seized - the scheme is way over budget, there have been a number of suggestions about descoping it and any significant cost overrun will lead to Phase 2B being greatly delayed or binned altogether
 

quantinghome

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Chester1

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"Way over budget"? Really? How come the two London stations have come in at £2.3bn compared to the budgeted £3bn?

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2019/02/06/2-3bn-london-hs2-station-contracts-awarded/

Because we live in a post truth world! Its funnny how those contracts have not been mentioned in newspapers but I bet if they had been £1 over the estimated cost they would have been. Overall the tenders have gone well and the cancellation and cutbacks are just media spin.
 

deltic

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"Way over budget"? Really? How come the two London stations have come in at £2.3bn compared to the budgeted £3bn?

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2019/02/06/2-3bn-london-hs2-station-contracts-awarded/
The headline contract figure will not be the same as the final outturn figure as demonstrated by Crossrail and HS1. Variation orders will arise as contractors come across issues that hadn’t been foreseen. HS2 themselves have stated that design cost estimates for the route are higher than budgeted for and they are looking at ways to reduce them.
 

tomuk

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Yeah, I've since looked at the photo again and that does seem to be the case.

Also good that there doesn't seem to be any pictures of airport style security, which would be a concern.

Looking at the design leaflet there will be three gate-line zones just like New Street. One gate-line will cover the GWML/Crossrail platforms. And two separate gate-lines will cover the HS2 platform - east and west.
 

Mordac

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Building looks nice but is that a New St style zoning thing, requiring connecting passengers to go through ticket barriers? I realise why it was unavoidable at New St, but for a new-build it's stupid.
You're never actually required to go through ticket barriers at New Street, though. It's just that the route to avoid them is very badly sign-posted, although they've started announcing it on LNR trains recently.
 

NotATrainspott

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Massive missed opportunity - HS2 billions over budget and here you have probably one of the best located stations in the country - easy reach to Heathrow, central London and the rest of the UK via HS2, Great Western and relatively easy link to Clapham Junction and hence most other parts of southern England. The station should be covered in 50 storey office blocks/hotels etc that would have more than paid for the station.

And why has virtually no-one in the station mock up pictures have any luggage or is over 60?

If 50-storey buildings do happen in the area, there will still be plenty of low-rise buildings in between. It doesn't make a lot of sense spending money to build above the station when the low-rise structures nearby would be on standard ground.

It's a similar story along at Euston. It'd make sense to move the low-rise bits like parks and short buildings on top of the railway cutting and then build up on the current low-rise land to the side.
 

Class 170101

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The station should be covered in 50 storey office blocks/hotels etc that would have more than paid for the station.

We don't want another dump like New Street. Lets not make the same mistake we made in 1960s and 2017 in 2026 (or so) when it opens
 

deltic

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If 50-storey buildings do happen in the area, there will still be plenty of low-rise buildings in between. It doesn't make a lot of sense spending money to build above the station when the low-rise structures nearby would be on standard ground.

It's a similar story along at Euston. It'd make sense to move the low-rise bits like parks and short buildings on top of the railway cutting and then build up on the current low-rise land to the side.
But in most cases the railway doesnt own the land surrounding the station and landowners such as Cargiant end up with windfall gains at the expense of the taxpayer
 

deltic

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We don't want another dump like New Street. Lets not make the same mistake we made in 1960s and 2017 in 2026 (or so) when it opens
Better a dump than no station at all? Berlin Hauptbahnhof looks fine to me and includes a large amount of commercial space.
 
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