East Midlands Franchise 2019-

The Box Photter · 12 Jan 2019

Meerkat said:
I see it completely the other way. I really don’t like cross subsidies, especially when they are used to hide the cost of public services. And why should mainline passengers subsidise local passengers?
Either the local services are worth subsidising or they aren’t, but they should have to make their case on their own.
If the weekend summer services are that popular the Mainline operator would want to operate them, or want to hire their stock out rather than have it sitting earning nothing.

You are Chris Grayling and I claim my £5.

Based on your way of thinking, there'd be very few railway lines left and no trains to run on them. You clearly have no concept of the meaning of the term "public transport".

RailUK Forums

Meerkat · 12 Jan 2019

The Box Photter said:
Based on your way of thinking, there'd be very few railway lines left and no trains to run on them. You clearly have no concept of the meaning of the term "public transport"

Public transport means transport the public can use. Not the same as public services.
Cross subsidising is hiding stuff from the taxpayer so they don’t realise they are paying for it.
it is dishonest and unhelpful. The only reason to be in support of it is because you don’t think the public would be happy about paying the subsidies.
Split the local trains off and run them locally, by a specialist franchise/concession, supervised by local government who better understand their area.

Jozhua · 13 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
At the moment, I'm interested in what will be used to cover the Class 153s and HSTs as they will no longer meet DDA requirements soon so could we see them staying on with a temporary extension to them being used?

From what people have been saying on the Pacer replacement thread, sounds like extensions are going to be handed out in bucketloads, highly doubt any train operators will replace fleets quickly enough!

I'd be interested to see what happens with the East Midlands Trains fleet with the change of franchise. Personally I'd like to see some of those spare TPE 185's (Or some other out of lease DMUs) go to the Norwich-Liverpool route and maybe have more 158's cover the local routes but that's definitely being overly hopeful!

Killingworth · 13 Jan 2019

Jozhua said:
From what people have been saying on the Pacer replacement thread, sounds like extensions are going to be handed out in bucketloads, highly doubt any train operators will replace fleets quickly enough!

I'd be interested to see what happens with the East Midlands Trains fleet with the change of franchise. Personally I'd like to see some of those spare TPE 185's (Or some other out of lease DMUs) go to the Norwich-Liverpool route and maybe have more 158's cover the local routes but that's definitely being overly hopeful!

When the franchise changes existing rolling stock will remain in place until replacements arrive, be they new or cascaded.

Back in post 691 I said;

"HSTs will be kept in service as they would cost too much to bring up to modern standards before bi-modes arrive. There isn't time to do all the upgrade work needed, and the fleet's too small to release the units for such major work. There isn't capacity in workshops to do it anyway. Work on GWR and Scotrail units prove it's not such an easy job as some may have imagined. Sliding doors and retention toilets both require a lot of work. A dispensation for the life of the units seems likely to be agreed."

At the East Midlands Stakeholder Conference in November the word dispensation was used to cover the operation of non-compliant vehicles. That was explained as different from derogation! I hope I got this right.

Derogation may be taken to mean where the stock is being made compliant but it may not be ready in time to comply by 31st December. The vehicles will be made ready and have a future.

Dispensation is where there is currently no refurbishment even planned. These vehicles are condemned and will be replaced as soon as new or cascaded stock becomes available. As there is not enough suitable stock likely to be available for a couple of years or more it seems quite a few units will continue to run much as originally built.

The 185s are another matter. The Sheffield-Manchester part of the route needs at least 4 coach units if not 6, so 3 x 158s would be fine. Loading can be equalised by walking through the train. Now that stock is normally available to send out 4 car trains the East Midlands third of the route is the best to catch - to get a seat. (It's not if punctuality is wanted.)

At present TPE 3 car trains are totally inadequate on many services. However, 6 coaches can be excessive on many journeys, particularly east of Doncaster. When 6 are most needed one half can be full and the second has space.

40 years ago the standard trains between Sheffield and Manchester were 4 car Class 124s, but that's another story. Traffic on the route has probably trebled since then.

SPADTrap · 13 Jan 2019

Sounds as if EMT will receive redundant coaches with the accessible toilet from Great Western Railway, together with adequate staffing should meet a derogation to continue HST operations for now.

Jozhua · 13 Jan 2019

SPADTrap said:
Sounds as if EMT will receive redundant coaches with the accessible toilet from Great Western Railway, together with adequate staffing should meet a derogation to continue HST operations for now.

Wouldn't be suprised if EMT end up receiving a derogation for their HST fleet for many years to come, unless the government plans to give them some shiny new 800's or something in the new franchise?

As much as the meridians are very respectful trains and have acceleration like no other diesel I've experienced, the 4/5 car units simply aren't long enough! (however they would be fantastic for the Norwich route )

Carlisle · 13 Jan 2019

HH said:
The problem is the definition of "profitable". Does anyone ask whether roads are profitable?
.

To my knowledge, since the motor vehicle was invented, road users globally have almost never directly built, owned or operated their rights of way, so making such comparisons is difficult to say the least, but no doubt there’s plenty of politicians eager to tap into potential revenue streams from new technologies charging for every mile driven in the not too distant future.

SPADTrap · 13 Jan 2019

Jozhua said:
Wouldn't be suprised if EMT end up receiving a derogation for their HST fleet for many years to come, unless the government plans to give them some shiny new 800's or something in the new franchise?

As much as the meridians are very respectful trains and have acceleration like no other diesel I've experienced, the 4/5 car units simply aren't long enough! (however they would be fantastic for the Norwich route )

I agree, I'd love to see Flirts if they prove successful They look a fantastic train and being Swiss built must be good!

317 forever · 13 Jan 2019

Jozhua said:
From what people have been saying on the Pacer replacement thread, sounds like extensions are going to be handed out in bucketloads, highly doubt any train operators will replace fleets quickly enough!

I'd be interested to see what happens with the East Midlands Trains fleet with the change of franchise. Personally I'd like to see some of those spare TPE 185's (Or some other out of lease DMUs) go to the Norwich-Liverpool route and maybe have more 158's cover the local routes but that's definitely being overly hopeful!

I think Norwich - Liverpool might now be the longest route in the country using former BR DMUs. I doubt any longer routes use ex-BR EMUs now.

Robertj21a · 13 Jan 2019

317 forever said:
I think Norwich - Liverpool might now be the longest route in the country using former BR DMUs. I doubt any longer routes use ex-BR EMUs now.

Is it longer than the Mallaig or Wick lines ?

Kettledrum · 13 Jan 2019

Meerkat said:
Public transport means transport the public can use. Not the same as public services.
Cross subsidising is hiding stuff from the taxpayer so they don’t realise they are paying for it.
it is dishonest and unhelpful. The only reason to be in support of it is because you don’t think the public would be happy about paying the subsidies.
Split the local trains off and run them locally, by a specialist franchise/concession, supervised by local government who better understand their area.

There's cross subsiding everywhere in public finances. The people of Lincolnshire pay their taxes, but don't have any motorways. Some towns have very low unemployment but still have to pay taxes that fund it. The railways play a really important role in getting people to jobs, and getting jobs to the people. This reduces social security costs. It also spreads the pressure for new housing, schools, hospitals etc away from the south east. There's lots of scope for economic regeneration in the East Midlands, not just in Lincolnshire, but also the former coal mining areas of Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, and also into Sheffield. The tax base in that area currently can't pay for it, so it needs subsidising. The East Midlands rail services could play a big part in this, particularly through the Eastern arm of HS2, but also in feeder services, particularly on freight routes, and better access for commuters into Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham and wider afield to London. None of the current East Midlands franchise discussions are on a scale to make this difference, sadly.

Aictos · 13 Jan 2019

Robertj21a said:
Is it longer than the Mallaig or Wick lines ?

Inverness to Wick is only 78 miles.
Inverness to Mallaig is 68 miles.
Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh is 57 miles.

The distance between Cardiff Central and Portsmouth Harbour is 101 miles.
The distance between Great Malvern and Brighton is 129 miles.
The distance between London Waterloo and Exeter is 158 miles.
The distance between Liverpool Lime Street and Norwich is 186 miles.

So yes at the moment the longest UK route with BR era DMUs is Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich.

ForTheLoveOf · 13 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
Inverness to Wick is only 78 miles.
Inverness to Mallaig is 68 miles.
Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh is 57 miles.

The distance between Cardiff Central and Portsmouth Harbour is 101 miles.
The distance between Great Malvern and Brighton is 129 miles.
The distance between London Waterloo and Exeter is 158 miles.
The distance between Liverpool Lime Street and Norwich is 186 miles.

So yes at the moment the longest UK route with BR era DMUs is Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich.

You are using distances as the crow flies. That's quite different to the actual distances travelled by the train...

Aictos · 13 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
You are using distances as the crow flies. That's quite different to the actual distances travelled by the train...

That's what TheTrainLine uses though so don't shoot the messenger!

VT 390 · 13 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
Inverness to Wick is only 78 miles.
Inverness to Mallaig is 68 miles.
Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh is 57 miles.

The distance between Cardiff Central and Portsmouth Harbour is 101 miles.
The distance between Great Malvern and Brighton is 129 miles.
The distance between London Waterloo and Exeter is 158 miles.
The distance between Liverpool Lime Street and Norwich is 186 miles.

So yes at the moment the longest UK route with BR era DMUs is Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich.

Which of these routes has the longest journey time? (it has to be between Great Malvern to Brighton or Liverpool to Norwich)

53703 · 13 Jan 2019

VT 390 said:
Which of these routes has the longest journey time? (it has to be between Great Malvern to Brighton or Liverpool to Norwich)

Some of the Tfw services out of Birmingham International must be up there too

Meerkat · 13 Jan 2019

Kettledrum said:
There's cross subsiding everywhere in public finances. The people of Lincolnshire pay their taxes, but don't have any motorways.

That isn’t cross subsidy. That is pooled taxation, and is open and known.
Overcharging some consumers to subsidise others is cross subsidy. It’s hidden, and avoidable

LowLevel · 13 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
Inverness to Wick is only 78 miles.
Inverness to Mallaig is 68 miles.
Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh is 57 miles.

The distance between Cardiff Central and Portsmouth Harbour is 101 miles.
The distance between Great Malvern and Brighton is 129 miles.
The distance between London Waterloo and Exeter is 158 miles.
The distance between Liverpool Lime Street and Norwich is 186 miles.

So yes at the moment the longest UK route with BR era DMUs is Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich.

Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich by rail is in the order of 250 miles give or take a bit.

Killingworth · 13 Jan 2019

Getting back to the East Midlands franchise for a moment, the issue of what rolling stock to use is down to the successful bidder.

None of them can magic units out of thin air. With a relatively short time period from announcement of the winning bid to commencement of operation the winner will have to continue using what is currently in place. How long will new units take to order, build, test and then train staff to operate? I had it from the horse's mouth. Whoever wins will almost certainly continue operating existing units largely unmodified for at least 2 years and probably more.

The existing franchise holder had direct grants which have extended their term without giving the financial certainty that would be needed to do any major refurbishment or order new trains. The electrification fiasco compounded that issue. That's the fault of the DfT and not the franchisee.

Call it what you will, but the new franchise holder will have to have planned for operating old stock for several years. Derogation was the word I used but was told there would be dispensation to continue operating until new stock arrives. I suppose a bidder might have included a refurbishment option. To economically do that they'd need to expect another 10 years more life in the stock. Much less time would be money down the drain.

We'll know soon enough when the winner is announced. Cannibalising a variety of redundant HSTs from around the nation might not give the new operator the consistent modern image they seek.

The Box Photter · 13 Jan 2019

Meerkat said:
That isn’t cross subsidy. That is pooled taxation, and is open and known.
Overcharging some consumers to subsidise others is cross subsidy. It’s hidden, and avoidable

Until the Tories deregulated bus services the cross-subsidy from profitable urban routes run by NBC and its predecessors BET & Tilling Groups enabled services to be provided in rural areas operated by the same bus companies that wouldn't have been profitable if they'd had to fund themselves.

Those rural bus services acted as feeders into urban centres and railheads, thus generating traffic and fares for the railways. It also meant that rural dwellers didn't have to rely on private cars to get to work or go shopping, thus traffic congestion was avoided.

Your argument reeks of political dogma and lack of sympathy for those who inevitably have lost out because politicians who never have to spend their own money on travel and are chauffeured everywhere in Ministerial cars have decided that providing a public service for the benefit of ordinary people can only be accommodated if it turns a profit for their chums in the City.

I can only assume that you either:

a) drive everywhere and look down on ordinary people
b) live less than 10 minutes walk/cycle from a main line railway station which you consider to be "profitable"

Why is it always a race to the bottom to cut, cut, cut so that profit is the only valid motive? I suppose you feel your taxes should be rebated if you don't need to use the NHS too.

LNW-GW Joint · 13 Jan 2019

Jozhua said:
But you're just taking the funds from the profitable line away from the local lines then. That's part of what I feel is wrong with Northern, all their profitable express routes have been taken in the form of Transpennine Express and all that profit probably won't subsidise the local services and instead goes straight into the pockets of First.

No it doesn't, it goes back to the DfT as premiums who then recycle it to the franchises needing subsidy.
You are right about Northern though, but the problem then is the combined Northern/TPE operation would be too big/unwieldy, and a NE/NW split might reappear.
On the EM franchise award, I thought it wasn't due until April anyway?
South Eastern and West Coast are due before East Midlands.

LNW-GW Joint · 13 Jan 2019

LowLevel said:
Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich by rail is in the order of 250 miles give or take a bit.

Liverpool-Norwich is 254 (rail) miles.
Manchester-Milford Haven is 288 miles, and is sometimes run with a 158 (and even a 150).
There's also a Holyhead-Maesteg at 262 miles.

Qwerty133 · 13 Jan 2019

On the stock side I still believe it would be possible for all of the HSTs to be withdrawn at the very end of the year with only minor reductions in service elsewhere (to allow electric trains to take over from diesels on not fully electrified routes), but because these reductions would be on the DfTs beloved East Coast mainline and mostly in Scotland they'd prefer for the midland mainline to remain needlessly inaccessible for years to come. If they really wanted they could even give scotrail extra HSTs and a much shorter derogation to cover all, except a handful of parliamentarys, of the services effected.
It is completely unacceptable that the 91s and Mark 4s are being withdrawn before the last HST anywhere on the network.

cactustwirly · 13 Jan 2019

Qwerty133 said:
On the stock side I still believe it would be possible for all of the HSTs to be withdrawn at the very end of the year with only minor reductions in service elsewhere (to allow electric trains to take over from diesels on not fully electrified routes), but because these reductions would be on the DfTs beloved East Coast mainline and mostly in Scotland they'd prefer for the midland mainline to remain needlessly inaccessible for years to come. If they really wanted they could even give scotrail extra HSTs and a much shorter derogation to cover all, except a handful of parliamentarys, of the services effected.
It is completely unacceptable that the 91s and Mark 4s are being withdrawn before the last HST anywhere on the network.

Eh?
So cancelling all the daytime fast Nottingham services, and the peak time services to Sheffield/Leeds/Derby is only 'minor' is it?

class26 · 13 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
Inverness to Wick is only 78 miles.
Inverness to Mallaig is 68 miles.
Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh is 57 miles.

The distance between Cardiff Central and Portsmouth Harbour is 101 miles.
The distance between Great Malvern and Brighton is 129 miles.
The distance between London Waterloo and Exeter is 158 miles.
The distance between Liverpool Lime Street and Norwich is 186 miles.

So yes at the moment the longest UK route with BR era DMUs is Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich.

Inverness to Wick is a lot more than 78 rails miles. It`s 161 miles !!!

Qwerty133 · 13 Jan 2019

cactustwirly said:
Eh?
So cancelling all the daytime fast Nottingham services, and the peak time services to Sheffield/Leeds/Derby is only 'minor' is it?

No, but cancelling LNER services north of Edinburgh/Glasgow and Lincoln and Hull extensions is. Keep the 91s and mark 4s in service over there and introduce the 800s on the MML instead.

VT 390 · 13 Jan 2019

Qwerty133 said:
No, but cancelling LNER services north of Edinburgh/Glasgow and Lincoln and Hull extensions is. Keep the 91s and mark 4s in service over there and introduce the 800s on the MML instead.

I have travelled on both the Inverness and Aberdeen extensions to the LNER service and they seam to be very well used, with a lot of people travelling on through journeys to the ECML (not getting off at Edinburgh)

Meerkat · 13 Jan 2019

The Box Photter said:
Your argument reeks of political dogma and lack of sympathy for those who inevitably have lost out because politicians who never have to spend their own money on travel and are chauffeured everywhere in Ministerial cars have decided that providing a public service for the benefit of ordinary people can only be accommodated if it turns a profit for their chums in the City.

Your political dogma is making you miss the point.
I am not making any judgment at all about whether local services should or shouldn’t be subsidised.
I just want it to be an honest decision - “these services require X subsidy, is this a sensible use of taxpayers money and should it be local or national taxpayers?”
You want to avoid anyone finding out that they need subsidy, by loading the cost on the mainline passengers or just using a bigger franchise as a slush fund.
In my opinion this hides the successes of the railways too

Aictos · 13 Jan 2019

The Box Photter said:
Until the Tories deregulated bus services the cross-subsidy from profitable urban routes run by NBC and its predecessors BET & Tilling Groups enabled services to be provided in rural areas operated by the same bus companies that wouldn't have been profitable if they'd had to fund themselves.

Those rural bus services acted as feeders into urban centres and railheads, thus generating traffic and fares for the railways. It also meant that rural dwellers didn't have to rely on private cars to get to work or go shopping, thus traffic congestion was avoided.

Your argument reeks of political dogma and lack of sympathy for those who inevitably have lost out because politicians who never have to spend their own money on travel and are chauffeured everywhere in Ministerial cars have decided that providing a public service for the benefit of ordinary people can only be accommodated if it turns a profit for their chums in the City.

I can only assume that you either:

a) drive everywhere and look down on ordinary people
b) live less than 10 minutes walk/cycle from a main line railway station which you consider to be "profitable"

Why is it always a race to the bottom to cut, cut, cut so that profit is the only valid motive? I suppose you feel your taxes should be rebated if you don't need to use the NHS too.

Not sure what's just happened but for once I see we are both in full agreement o_O

As to the franchise services although I guess it's a franchise commitment but why did they have the Corby services call at Luton while the Semi Fast Nottingham services call at Luton Airport Parkway?

Could the new franchise shake up their services and instead have the newly EMU operated services to Corby stop at Luton Airport Parkway instead and have the semi fast Nottingham services call at Luton instead?

Could the Corby services also stop at St Albans, I know they have 6 TL services a hour btw...

yorksrob · 13 Jan 2019

Meerkat said:
Public transport means transport the public can use. Not the same as public services.
Cross subsidising is hiding stuff from the taxpayer so they don’t realise they are paying for it.
it is dishonest and unhelpful. The only reason to be in support of it is because you don’t think the public would be happy about paying the subsidies.
Split the local trains off and run them locally, by a specialist franchise/concession, supervised by local government who better understand their area.

It's basically a nonsense to assume that every individual route can be assigned as either profit or loss making. When the railways were first built and run on a geographical basis, branch and main line were bundled together so that the secondary routes provided passengers and freight to the main routes which in turn subsidised the rest of the network.

Why would we suddenly change the way that railways have operated from their beginnings for the sake of a lot of 1990's era ideological wibble ?

East Midlands Franchise 2019-

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member