LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

sufian123 · 20 Jan 2019

pt_mad said:
And I wonder what will use the bay platform at New St instead of the Liverpool? Maybe the Shrewsbury's will, with Liverpools requiring a through platform?

Yes. Shrewsbury ones and some will terminate late nights at bay at new st and start the next day.

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Bevan Price · 20 Jan 2019

pt_mad said:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...7/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=LM

Long distance wise, excluding services operating exclusively on the South WCML (not operating North of Northampton):

Looking at a snapshot on RTT at LNR trains at Birmingham International on 27th May 19, the general hourly off peak pattern M - F appears to be: (correct if wrong please)

Southbound
1 X Liverpool Lime St to London Euston via Birmingham and Northampton.
1 X Liverpool Lime St to Birmingham Intl.
1 X Crewe to London Euston via Stoke on Trent, Birmingham and Northampton.
1 X Rugeley Trent Valley to London Euston via Cannock, Walsall, Birmingham and Northampton.
(1 X Rugeley Trent Valley to Birmingham Intl via Birmingham New St, WMRailway)
(1 X Crewe to London Euston via Stafford and fast lines from Rugby).

Northbound
1 X London Euston to Liverpool Lime St via Northampton and Birmingham.
1 X Birmingham Intl to Liverpool Lime St.
1 X London Euston to Crewe via Northampton, Birmingham and Stoke on Trent.
1 X London Euston to Rugeley Trent Valley via Northampton, Birmingham, Walsall and Cannock.
(1 X Birmingham Intl to Rugeley Trent Valley via Birmingham New St, WMRailway)
(1 X London Euston to Crewe via Stafford, fastline to Rugby).

Also worth mentioning there are some services starting from or terminating at Coventry, not included.

Quite a drastic change as far as through WCML services go. Could it be the biggest change on the route since the Very High Frequency timetable was introduced into operation by Virgin Trains back in 2008?

Like the idea of less trains starting and terminating at Birmingham New St. Capacity wise. Seems quite innovative. And appears the towns of Walsall and Cannock get their first ever off peak hourly service to London. And it appears Smethwick Galton Bridge and Penkridge do too.
Also by default links the likes of Northampton, Coventry, Birmingham Intl, Marston Green etc directly to Liverpool with no changes.

The timetable associated with that RTT link appears to be incomplete. It shows services from Liverpool terminating in Platform 1a at Birmingham New St. -- but then not going anywhere,

sufian123 · 20 Jan 2019

Bevan Price said:
The timetable associated with that RTT link appears to be incomplete. It shows services from Liverpool terminating in Platform 1a at Birmingham New St. -- but then not going anywhere,

They are coupling with Crewe-Euston is stoke service. Running as a double.

sufian123 · 20 Jan 2019

Bevan Price said:
The timetable associated with that RTT link appears to be incomplete. It shows services from Liverpool terminating in Platform 1a at Birmingham New St. -- but then not going anywhere,

As 1336 now comes from airport for Liverpool.

43074 · 21 Jan 2019

sufian123 said:
153s will end up with emt. Not till class 172/0 arrives.

Is there actually a source for this? I'd be very surprised if it were to happen, the 4 153s from GWR have basically solved the unit shortage with PRM mods ongoing and they can provide extra capacity when that is complete.

BucksBones · 21 Jan 2019

The WCML services south of Northampton have been significantly altered too. The clock-face off peak timetable seems to have gone out of the window; the southbound semi-fast services from Milton Keynes Central, for example, will depart at a different time every hour.

gordonthemoron · 21 Jan 2019

is the trent valley service likely to be doubled up now that it doesn't call at Stone, Kidsgrove and Alsager?

Bletchleyite · 21 Jan 2019

gordonthemoron said:
is the trent valley service likely to be doubled up now that it doesn't call at Stone, Kidsgrove and Alsager?

Yes, the reason for removing the "wobble" is precisely so it can be 8-car.

gordonthemoron · 21 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Yes, the reason for removing the "wobble" is precisely so it can be 8-car.

excellent news

sufian123 · 21 Jan 2019

43074 said:
Is there actually a source for this? I'd be very surprised if it were to happen, the 4 153s from GWR have basically solved the unit shortage with PRM mods ongoing and they can provide extra capacity when that is complete.

Govt website West Midlands franchise. Didn’t kbow ifvits changed.

87015 · 21 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Yes, the reason for removing the "wobble" is precisely so it can be 8-car.

With the extra stock coming from?? One additional 8-319 isn’t going to cut it, the cuts as usual being the cash cow WCML south commuters without an option so they can raid revenue on cheap tickets further north.

Bletchleyite · 21 Jan 2019

87015 said:
With the extra stock coming from?? One additional 8-319 isn’t going to cut it.

TPE 350s (so it might not be 8-car straight away, I guess). Of course one of those is splatted, so they'll probably need one or two more 319s (dependent on diagramming) to substitute.

Aictos · 21 Jan 2019

I may be wrong but it seems from May that the only LNWR/WMT services terminating at New Street are the Hereford and Shrewsbury services off peak?

With Birmingham New Street turnaround times they vary between 25 minutes for XC to Leicester/Stansted Airport/Nottingham and Cardiff to 45 minutes for VT to London so would it not be possible with some fine tuning for the Hereford and Shrewsbury services to be combined as they're operated by the same operator so they become Hereford to Shrewsbury via Birmingham services?

It's good that Crewe finally gets a faster service avoiding Stoke on Trent and as to Liverpool now having direct LNWR services to London can we see a price war between them and Virgin in much the same way that Virgin and Chiltern do over Birmingham? In other words more competitive fares between Liverpool and London which can only be good.

sufian123 · 21 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
I may be wrong but it seems from May that the only LNWR/WMT services terminating at New Street are the Hereford and Shrewsbury services off peak?

With Birmingham New Street turnaround times they vary between 25 minutes for XC to Leicester/Stansted Airport/Nottingham and Cardiff to 45 minutes for VT to London so would it not be possible with some fine tuning for the Hereford and Shrewsbury services to be combined as they're operated by the same operator so they become Hereford to Shrewsbury via Birmingham services?

It's good that Crewe finally gets a faster service avoiding Stoke on Trent and as to Liverpool now having direct LNWR services to London can we see a price war between them and Virgin in much the same way that Virgin and Chiltern do over Birmingham? In other words more competitive fares between Liverpool and London which can only be good.

Hereford to Shrewsbury services run as separately. It’s now half an hourly weekdays and Saturday that’s the change. Sunday’s hourly.

Ianno87 · 21 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
I may be wrong but it seems from May that the only LNWR/WMT services terminating at New Street are the Hereford and Shrewsbury services off peak?

With Birmingham New Street turnaround times they vary between 25 minutes for XC to Leicester/Stansted Airport/Nottingham and Cardiff to 45 minutes for VT to London so would it not be possible with some fine tuning for the Hereford and Shrewsbury services to be combined as they're operated by the same operator so they become Hereford to Shrewsbury via Birmingham services?

Main issue is that the Herefords call at University, so a southbound trip requires an awkward reversal across the entire west end station throat.

That, or an excursion via Soho/Perry Barr/Aston.

Probably not feasible, especially with no big wins in connectivity terms (University to/from Wolves being the biggie, for which loads of connections already exist)

ForTheLoveOf · 21 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
It's good that Crewe finally gets a faster service avoiding Stoke on Trent

Agreed - this is really quite competitive compared to Virgin in terms of journey time. Given the price differential, either Virgin will be seeing some reduced loadings on their Liverpool and Chester/N Wales services, or they will have to cut (Advance) prices. I suspect the former! I'd hope that Advance availability on the Trent Valley services is increased, as a doubling of the service is such a significant increase that it may, for the first time in a while, see some empty seats in the off-peak!

Class 403 said:
as to Liverpool now having direct LNWR services to London can we see a price war between them and Virgin in much the same way that Virgin and Chiltern do over Birmingham?

I doubt that many people will stomach the 4.5 hour journey time from Liverpool to London on the direct services, compared to the 2 and a bit hour Virgin service. But I can foresee quite a number of people changing at Crewe for the Trent Valley services, as that will represent a more competitive journey time, if you take the xx:33 LIV-CRE (which arrives into CRE at xx:19 the following hour), and then the xx:33 CRE-EUS. Total journey time 3:17 vs 2:12 for the Virgin through service.

I would be surprised if anyone looking online or elsewhere is suggested the through service, given how slow it is, unless they manually input "via Birmingham" or "prefer direct trains".

Bletchleyite · 21 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
I doubt that many people will stomach the 4.5 hour journey time from Liverpool to London on the direct services, compared to the 2 and a bit hour Virgin service.

I reckon they will (particularly if the Advances are very cheap). In particular it could easily wipe out NatEx and Megabus on the route.

ForTheLoveOf · 21 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I reckon they will (particularly if the Advances are very cheap). In particular it could easily wipe out NatEx and Megabus on the route.

It will not appear by default on most journey planners though - they will have to "search for cheaper routes" (or know they need to ask for the train) to find it.

Bletchleyite · 21 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
It will not appear by default on most journey planners though - they will have to "search for cheaper routes" (or know they need to ask for the train) to find it.

I bet LNR will tweak theirs to show it, just like the VT site shows the "via Birmingham" trains even though they are never the quickest from MKC or Euston to points north of Crewe.

ForTheLoveOf · 21 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I bet LNR will tweak theirs to show it, just like the VT site shows the "via Birmingham" trains even though they are never the quickest from MKC or Euston to points north of Crewe.

Well, if they haven't thought of doing that yet, they have their reminder now!

Bletchleyite · 21 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Well, if they haven't thought of doing that yet, they have their reminder now!

They probably already have similar logic ensuring that the Euston-Brum trains are not hidden by the VTs!

Muzer · 21 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
TPE 350s (so it might not be 8-car straight away, I guess). Of course one of those is splatted, so they'll probably need one or two more 319s (dependent on diagramming) to substitute.

Splatted? Have they written one off?

ForTheLoveOf · 21 Jan 2019

Muzer said:
Splatted? Have they written one off?

It had a collision with a horse and is likely to be written off due to almost irreparable (let alone economically) structural damage. On a fleet of 10, being 1 down is not insignificant.

XCTurbostar · 21 Jan 2019

This is great news, hopefully the Crewe via Trent Valley services will be more commonly 8 coaches from then onwards.

Bletchleyite · 21 Jan 2019

XCTurbostar said:
This is great news, hopefully the Crewe via Trent Valley services will be more commonly 8 coaches from then onwards.

That's the plan - indeed the entire reason for stopping running via Stoke. The journey time gain is a pleasant side-effect.

DarloRich · 21 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The Liverpool one doesn't stop at Bletchley - shame, that would actually be useful!

Euston > MKC non stop?

pt_mad said:
Is there a class 153 sometimes attached to a 170 on the Chase Line currently?

There will be 2 freed up off the Vale

Bletchleyite · 21 Jan 2019

DarloRich said:
Euston > MKC non stop?

I *think* it's the one that goes Euston-Watford-MKC and then on.

sd0733 · 21 Jan 2019

I just hope our Control have some good contingency planning in place as a problem somewhere like Stechford now could screw up the Liverpools, Chase Line and Eustons in one go. It would be interesting to see just how many diagrams are required to cover all these services, Rugeley will all be extras as will ant 8 cars on the Trent and also the Bhm-crewe services. If some or all of the 350/4s haven't arrived by May I can see a significant amount of Short forms. Hopefully I'm wrong and it all goes well as it does allow some significant connection improvements if it does. I just feel that the Crewe service especially, with the much reduced journey times, more capacity and later trains could do with a relaunch with an improved offer with Catering etc as the lack of that could put a lot of passengers off, the amount that complain already Is high and at the moment very few do the whole run from.Crewe.

Bletchleyite · 21 Jan 2019

sd0733 said:
If some or all of the 350/4s haven't arrived by May I can see a significant amount of Short forms

I hope they don't pursue their pseudo-Open Access ambitions at the expense of short-forming the bread and butter peaks into/out of Euston, though.

If they are substantially delayed, taking more 319s temporarily (or any other suitable EMUs) would seem to make sense to me.

sufian123 · 21 Jan 2019

sd0733 said:
I just hope our Control have some good contingency planning in place as a problem somewhere like Stechford now could screw up the Liverpools, Chase Line and Eustons in one go. It would be interesting to see just how many diagrams are required to cover all these services, Rugeley will all be extras as will ant 8 cars on the Trent and also the Bhm-crewe services. If some or all of the 350/4s haven't arrived by May I can see a significant amount of Short forms. Hopefully I'm wrong and it all goes well as it does allow some significant connection improvements if it does. I just feel that the Crewe service especially, with the much reduced journey times, more capacity and later trains could do with a relaunch with an improved offer with Catering etc as the lack of that could put a lot of passengers off, the amount that complain already Is high and at the moment very few do the whole run from.Crewe.

Can 319s run all the way to Birmingham or local that will free up 350s on the local run? In worst case scenario 350/4s don’t arrive.

LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

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