LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

[DarloRich]

What is the SN

southern?

 

[matt]

SN = Southern

I don't think the Rugeleys to Birmingham Internationals can be 323s as they form a Liverpool service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the SN??

Sorry, the Southern service, when they can be bothered to run it. There are, I suspect, going to be a lot of Delay Repay claims...

Out of interest, is there currently a LNR only ticket between Euston and Crewe inclusive? Perhaps if that was withdrawn, and the only fare was the standard any operator price, it may help to prevent any future over loading of the 8 car Trent Valley services should any be encouraged purely by an improved through journey time and much cheaper price from Crewe than with the main West Coast operator?

Yes there is, and the whole basis behind the pseudo-Open-Access nature of this service (I don't know about this franchise, but I believe an hourly Northampton-Crewe all stations would have met the spec for the LM franchise and that what LM actually did with it effectively was Open Access) is to do that.

The fix for overcrowding, now it can run 8-car, may be to increase to 12 or to double the frequency - I suspect both are under consideration for potential future growth.

 

[sufian123]

Will the Rugeley to Birmingham International local service be class 350s or class 323? Would have thought 323s would save 350s for the mainline. Then again maybe there aren't enough 323s.

It will be 350s as you can see it’s a service from Euston, then it goes to airport from Rugeley from May. Not sure 323s be used on that route. WMR says all through rugley to Birmingham will be a 350.

 

[pt_mad]

I do wonder whether 8 coaches on the Trent Valley services will really find everyone a seat in the medium term. Presumably many passengers hope that it will, or will expect when they are 8 car, that they will find a seat in the off peak. But given that at times 6 coaches could have seats filled already, with growth, and this service potentially offering a viable alternative all the way from Crewe to Euston at a cheaper price, I could see standing room on some of these too in years to come.

 

[sufian123]

What is the SN??

Southern

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do wonder whether 8 coaches on the Trent Valley services will really find everyone a seat in the medium term. Presumably many passengers hope that it will, or will expect when they are 8 car, that they will find a seat in the off peak. But given that at times 6 coaches could have seats filled already, with growth, and this service potentially offering a viable alternative all the way from Crewe to Euston at a cheaper price, I could see standing room on some of these too in years to come.

Then time for 12-car, or even 2tph which I believe is not out of the question.

 

[sufian123]

I do wonder whether 8 coaches on the Trent Valley services will really find everyone a seat in the medium term. Presumably many passengers hope that it will, or will expect when they are 8 car, that they will find a seat in the off peak. But given that at times 6 coaches could have seats filled already, with growth, and this service potentially offering a viable alternative all the way from Crewe to Euston at a cheaper price, I could see standing room on some of these too in years to come.

Up to 12 cars they are planning.

 

[pt_mad]

...
Yes there is, and the whole basis behind the pseudo-Open-Access nature of this service (I don't know about this franchise, but I believe an hourly Northampton-Crewe all stations would have met the spec for the LM franchise and that what LM actually did with it effectively was Open Access) is to do that.

The fix for overcrowding, now it can run 8-car, may be to increase to 12 or to double the frequency - I suspect both are under consideration for potential future growth.

Afaik, when LM entered into the direct awards towards the end of their operation, running the Trent Valley service through to Euston became set in stone. I believe you're correct in that it started off optional.

Personally I don't believe it was a sort of open access tactic to provide competition from Crewe. I believe it was done to provide many stations through the Trent Valley with a direct service to London, which many had lost off peak with the VHF.

A consequence of that is that they end up with decent loading from Crewe going all the way. And if they dont now, they may well do when the journey is shortened by 40 mins.

The upside for LNR is that I gather all of the revenue from an LNR only ticket goes to them. So business wise from Crewe, it's very savvy. Loadings wise I'm not sure it addresses the crowding issue long term.

12 cars I don't believe could run on the Trent Valley for 2 reasons:

1. UDS, unit deselect is used at Atherstone and Rugeley Trent Valley for short platforms, 4 car length. I understand the guard locates themselves in the front cab of the set they wish to lock out at the station. Two sets cannot be locked out at the same time autonomously afaik?
2. The TV service uses the bay platform at Crewe. 12 cars won't fit in the bay.

If they eventually run through to Manchester Airport then it may address the Crewe bay issue. However UDS would still remain a problem afaik.

 

[pt_mad]

Up to 12 cars they are planning.

How? See my other post above...

 

[sufian123]

How? See my other post above...

Could be possible never know never.

 

[Bletchleyite]

1. UDS, unit deselect is used at Atherstone and Rugeley Trent Valley for short platforms, 4 car length. I understand the guard locates themselves in the front cab of the set they wish to lock out at the station. Two sets cannot be locked out at the same time autonomously afaik?

Yes, they can. You can use the cab in coach 5 to open only coaches 1, 2, 3 and 4 of a 12-car set. I've only ever seen this done once, though, possibly the one and only time when a 12-car set ever called southbound at Bletchley platform 6 (due to a points failure). When I saw it on the PIS I thought it was an error - but it indeed did happen!

2. The TV service uses the bay platform at Crewe. 12 cars won't fit in the bay.

8 don't fit either, do they?

 

[sufian123]

Yes, they can. You can use the cab in coach 5 to open only coaches 1, 2, 3 and 4 of a 12-car set. I've only ever seen this done once, though, possibly the one and only time when a 12-car set ever called southbound at Bletchley platform 6 (due to a points failure). When I saw it on the PIS I thought it was an error - but it indeed did happen!



8 don't fit either, do they?

8 don’t they arrive on other platforms

 

[pt_mad]

I just hope our Control have some good contingency planning in place as a problem somewhere like Stechford now could screw up the Liverpools...

sd0733 are you able to clarify whether UDS could be used on a 12 car on a 4 car platform? And where the 8 car trains will be platformed at Crewe. And whether in theory there's anything to prevent 12 car trains from working the route? Or whether 12 cars are planned on any TV working in the near future?

 

[Bletchleyite]

sd0733 are you able to clarify whether UDS could be used on a 12 car on a 4 car platform? And where the 8 car trains will be platformed at Crewe. And whether in theory there's anything to prevent 12 car trains from working the route? Or whether 12 cars are planned on any TV working in the near future?

UDS definitely can be used on a 4-car platform with a 12-car set. As I said, I have seen it used on Bletchley platform 6 - may well be the only 12-car set that ever called there. I think the train involved was the 0730 which is 12-car and has been for years. The way it works is to lock out the coach containing the cab in which it is being used and any coach behind that cab, not just that unit.

I doubt there will be 12-car working until the new stock arrives simply due to the number of available units, though.

 

[sd0733]

sd0733 are you able to clarify whether UDS could be used on a 12 car on a 4 car platform? And where the 8 car trains will be platformed at Crewe. And whether in theory there's anything to prevent 12 car trains from working the route? Or whether 12 cars are planned on any TV working in the near future?

Platform 7 is able to take an 8 car set at Crewe so most Trents will use that. No bay can take a 12 though.
Yes 4 car uds on a 12 is possible but isn't used in any planned work. Any Trent 12 car working would likely be Peak Time limited stopper as I personally can't see it working, there's enough problems with 8cars uds! But never know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think SWT used to have some planned 4-car out of 12 UDS (it's easy to forget just how rural some of their network is), but it has been replaced by proper "per vehicle" SDO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Platform 7 is able to take an 8 car set at Crewe so most Trents will use that. No bay can take a 12 though.
Yes 4 car uds on a 12 is possible but isn't used in any planned work. Any Trent 12 car working would likely be Peak Time limited stopper as I personally can't see it working, there's enough problems with 8cars uds! But never know.

Logic would be to solve the bay issue by sending the things to Liverpool Lime Street, giving them their long-wanted second TPH to London with a decent running time and some super-cheap fares. It would be popular to the extent that you'd need 12 on every service in my view.

Of course, the powers that be don't like to upset VTWC by providing what the passengers want in their droves - a reasonably comfortable but affordable service.

 

[cle]

Logic would be to solve the bay issue by sending the things to Liverpool Lime Street, giving them their long-wanted second TPH to London with a decent running time and some super-cheap fares. It would be popular to the extent that you'd need 12 on every service in my view.

Of course, the powers that be don't like to upset VTWC by providing what the passengers want in their droves - a reasonably comfortable but affordable service.

Agreed - although Crewe has platforms 1 and 11/12 which aren't hugely used, and are long.

But 1tph to Liverpool (fast, which could skip Rugeley and Atherstone, and be 12 car) - and a second 8 car service per hour, making more local stops and via Northampton I imagine, might be the move.

 

[Ianno87]

Then time for 12-car, or even 2tph which I believe is not out of the question.

If the fares disparity on this service really is driving a 12 car level of demand, and that drives extra rolling stock, then, frankly, the fares on this service should be raised to manage demand and/or pay for the rolling stock.

Cheap fares should be filling otherwise spare capacity, not driving need for provision of extra capacity to meet the demand generated (or abstracted) by them

Whilst cheap fares are nice, there is a cost for them somewhere to somebody (probably the taxpayer, ultimately)

 

[Starmill]

Logic would be to solve the bay issue by sending the things to Liverpool Lime Street, giving them their long-wanted second TPH to London with a decent running time and some super-cheap fares. It would be popular to the extent that you'd need 12 on every service in my view.

This I can see happening to an extent on current arrangements.

It's under 3 hours 20 on West Midlands Trains, with a reasonable interchange:

1033 Liverpool LS to London Euston shown changing at Crewe
Walk-on single fare is £34 against £88.60 for a train taking 2h 12. At that time of day it is well worth it.

 

[Muzer]

I think SWT used to have some planned 4-car out of 12 UDS (it's easy to forget just how rural some of their network is), but it has been replaced by proper "per vehicle" SDO.

They definitely did. They also had local door only for 444s calling at Shawford and (at some times of day) Swaythling.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Agreed - although Crewe has platforms 1 and 11/12 which aren't hugely used, and are long.

But 1tph to Liverpool (fast, which could skip Rugeley and Atherstone, and be 12 car) - and a second 8 car service per hour, making more local stops and via Northampton I imagine, might be the move.

I think platform 12 is used the least at Crewe so it could probably stop there.

1 and 11 aren't busy but they have departures spread across the hour so not enough time for a 20-30 minute occupation by that service

 

[DavidGrain]

We were told that West Midlands Trains when they took over the franchise would be separating the brands between West Midlands Railways and London NorthWestern Railway. It seems to me that LNW with these changes be taking over the running of more of the local West Midlands services especially on the Walsall/Rugeley and Wolverhampton lines and the New Street International shuttle

 

[sd0733]

We were told that West Midlands Trains when they took over the franchise would be separating the brands between West Midlands Railways and London NorthWestern Railway. It seems to me that LNW with these changes be taking over the running of more of the local West Midlands services especially on the Walsall/Rugeley and Wolverhampton lines and the New Street International shuttle

there do appear to be a limited amount of routes to now out into the West Midlands side now. Realistically the only lines that would fit are the entire Snow Hill lines operation, Wolves-walsall, cross city and the remaining diesels from new street, to Shrewsbury and Worcester. Everything else seemingly now fits under the LNR brand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the fares disparity on this service really is driving a 12 car level of demand, and that drives extra rolling stock, then, frankly, the fares on this service should be raised to manage demand and/or pay for the rolling stock.

The question is is it profitable to run longer trains (noting that making profit by wilfully cramming people into 4-car sets full and standing is not acceptable). It may well be profitable if this service isn't so much abstracting from VT but rather encouraging people out of cars (and to a lesser extent coaches).

 

[sufian123]

there do appear to be a limited amount of routes to now out into the West Midlands side now. Realistically the only lines that would fit are the entire Snow Hill lines operation, Wolves-walsall, cross city and the remaining diesels from new street, to Shrewsbury and Worcester. Everything else seemingly now fits under the LNR brand.

The new bhm-Crewe via stoke will fit under WMR. I’ve seen orange at stone station. I’m guessing that’s the reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The new bhm-Crewe via stoke will fit under WMR. I’ve seen orange at stone station. I’m guessing that’s the reason.

Though the trains serving it will be LNR liveried - nothing like consistency! Unless they plan on painting some of the 350s that disgusting orange and purple mess, but I suspect (and hope) not.

 

[sufian123]

Though the trains serving it will be LNR liveried - nothing like consistency! Unless they plan on painting some of the 350s that disgusting orange and purple mess, but I suspect (and hope) not.

It’s happening now as well Walsall-wolves using 350s. It is confusing mess

 

[sd0733]

The new bhm-Crewe via stoke will fit under WMR. I’ve seen orange at stone station. I’m guessing that’s the reason.

It goes through to Euston though so doesn't really fit WMR. Stone repainting and now rebranded too as a WMR station does seem to confuse matters somewhat.