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Police called as commuter sits in empty first class zone on packed rush-hour train

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gimmea50anyday

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The attitude test - basically it's how the individual is responding to the member of staff. Staff tend to be far more lenient, can and discresionary towards an individual being honest, courteous and co-operative. If the individual is displaying a bad attitude towards the staff , flippant, uncooperative, abusive even, staff tend to be far more assertive, abide by the rules and impose them.
 
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mark-h

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Why should police time be spent on pursuing a private company's claim against a passenger, sorry customer?

BTP is funded by the rail industry/companies- crimes against the railway, including fare evasion, is within their remit. Their involvement will not take officers away from general policing.
 

Tuppenny Tube

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So do I, it happened to me.
I had to stand in the standard class vestibule along with about 10 others. At the next station several of us moved into the corridor connection with the adjacent 1st class coach in order to allow passengers to alight, before we could move back into Standard there was an inrush of customers boarding, pushing us into the 1st class vestibule.
Shortly after departure the Conductor appeared, from the 1st class end of the train, checking tickets and advised us that we would have to pay the excess for travelling in 1st with Standard tickets. I explained what happened, as did my fellow travellers but his reply was "That's not my fault, you'll still have to pay", even though he could clearly see the crush in the next vestibule (and after our altercation I note he made no effort to force his way into or through the throng to check any tickets in standard). No one paid up, he was told, in easy to understand terms, what he could do with his excesses and I think he then realised he was on a loser and gave up.
 

DPWH

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Looking at the Conditions of Carriage, my understanding is that you can sit in first class on a standard class ticket as long as (1) there is no a standard seat available (2) a first class ticket holder isn't forced to stand and (3) you are polite about it and ask the staff very nicely.

I've used this occasionally before (I guess it helps that I'm polite, well dressed and speak nicely).

Of course the potential problem with (3) is that the staff are unaware of this rule or might just be in an obnoxious mood or want to make commission on upgrades.

But this provision doesn't apply to season tickets.
 

Hadders

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Looking at the Conditions of Carriage, my understanding is that you can sit in first class on a standard class ticket as long as (1) there is no a standard seat available (2) a first class ticket holder isn't forced to stand and (3) you are polite about it and ask the staff very nicely.

Where in the NRCoT does it say this? It actually says the complete opposite
 

DPWH

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NSEFAN

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OK, so maybe I got it wrong. The 2012 version here mentions it under section G: https://www.splitticketing.com/NRCOC.pdf - but maybe the latest versions have removed this, and o in fact now say the opposite. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/images/structure/css/Conditions of Travel 2016.pdf is from 2016 for example.
The rule is basically saying that you are allowed to sit in 1st class with a standard ticket at discretion of the staff, which is still the case in practice as far as I know.
 

whhistle

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Have to disagree with the above, having been on a train that has hit the buffers at quite a low speed on a very busy train with a lot of people standing, there were quite a few injuries ( all very minor granted ) to standing people who ended up in a pile on the floor, no injuries to anyone seated.

So the chances of that happening or a crash of any sort are extremely rare, standing certainly is more dangerous than sitting.
You could say travelling in a car is more dangerous than walking... but millions of people still do it and don't see any risk.


If the person was asked to move out of the First Class area and didn't. Or was asked to pay for a First Class ticket, but didn't, why shouldn't they expect further action?

I suspect the person didn't feel it was "unsafe" in the standard area of the train.
People casually lie about this sort of thing all the time, all day every day.

If I felt unsafe, I'd be getting off the train.
But the aim of getting home was more important than feeling safe.
 

whhistle

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I'm generally against this train of thought. My personal view is that train staff shouldn't be immediately calling BTP if they can't get money out of someone unless they've also already attempted to go through the correct TOC procedures - ie collect details and complete a TIR.
Fact is, customers should (within reason, thinking safety and all that) do what a Railway Staff member says.
Most people don't like being told what to do, and thus they do not carry out the instruction.

If a person is going to have to stand and they're too lazy to do so / don't want to pay to upgrade, they also fail to realise it makes it a personal attack on the railway staff member. The railway staff member isn't asking for a silly dance or something else completely wild, but asking someone to do something for a particular reason. Why should any customer feel there is a choice to accept the instruction? (Remember, it's not like the railway staff are asking them to get off a moving train.)

Someone in authority is asking them to do something, and they're refusing for no valid reason.

The next stage is to get the police, who (I would hope) the customer would follow their instruction.
 

al78

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I had thought about that and it`s a possibility, given that disabled people are allowed to travel in first with a standard ticket if the TM allows it. As you point out there are always 2 sides.

I would say that is extremely unlikely, on the basis that it certainly would have been mentioned in the article since it is an obvious defence, and much of the media love an excuse to demonise the rail network.
 

al78

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No one wants to stand long distance and frankly, these 170s and 220s are frequently full and standing from what I hear.

Hard luck, the consequence of using public transport in a highly populated country where a large number of people want to travel at the same time is that you will have to stand. The alternative is don't travel at peak times if possible.
 

al78

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Someone in authority is asking them to do something, and they're refusing for no valid reason.

There is a valid reason from their perspective, they think if they are obstructive enough the authority will decide it is not worth the bother and leave them alone.
 

nanstallon

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So do I, it happened to me.
I had to stand in the standard class vestibule along with about 10 others. At the next station several of us moved into the corridor connection with the adjacent 1st class coach in order to allow passengers to alight, before we could move back into Standard there was an inrush of customers boarding, pushing us into the 1st class vestibule.
Shortly after departure the Conductor appeared, from the 1st class end of the train, checking tickets and advised us that we would have to pay the excess for travelling in 1st with Standard tickets. I explained what happened, as did my fellow travellers but his reply was "That's not my fault, you'll still have to pay", even though he could clearly see the crush in the next vestibule (and after our altercation I note he made no effort to force his way into or through the throng to check any tickets in standard). No one paid up, he was told, in easy to understand terms, what he could do with his excesses and I think he then realised he was on a loser and gave up.

Good, when a jobsworth is being an ar**hole, the Brits are still capable of having some backbone.
 

jagardner1984

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Isn’t there another way of looking at this. We seem, in a very British way, to be focussing on the class structure here.

A year or so back I did a lot of travel on cross Country services up and down from Scotland. After a couple of journeys that I would describe as heavily / unpleasantly overcrowded through the north and midlands, I decided (and paid) for first class tickets for the rest of my journeys. To me it wasn’t about the “free” paper cup with a teabag and some UHT milk in it, nor the marginally larger seats, it was about effectively guaranteeing a seat, and travelling for 8 hours in some level of comfort (being able to get to the toilet easily etc)

The subtext of the article seems to be “first class travellers seem to think they are more important than me, f*** that, I’m going to sit there”. Ignore the class argument, In my experience, they are just people willing to pay to avoid travelling in the crush conditions he’s complaining about.

As ever, his real (very badly put, it seems) argument, is about insufficient capacity on these services (widely acknowledged on threads here about cross country overcrowding, I see). But moaning about the TM or BTP doing their jobs will do little to lengthen a 170 !
 

Bletchleyite

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But using First Class for that purpose is misusing it on the TOC's part, though I understand it to some extent on commuter services. XC is heavily overcrowded, and the First Class fares are outrageous, while they still sell Advances on hugely busy trains. This all needs solving.

I personally most strongly resent paying for First Class on a long distance service to get a seat. Long distance services should, in normal circumstances, ensure a seat for everyone.

FWIW, though, I just avoid travelling on XC as far as possible, as it is a nasty, poorly-managed TOC with nasty, short trains.
 

nanstallon

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Isn’t there another way of looking at this. We seem, in a very British way, to be focussing on the class structure here.

A year or so back I did a lot of travel on cross Country services up and down from Scotland. After a couple of journeys that I would describe as heavily / unpleasantly overcrowded through the north and midlands, I decided (and paid) for first class tickets for the rest of my journeys. To me it wasn’t about the “free” paper cup with a teabag and some UHT milk in it, nor the marginally larger seats, it was about effectively guaranteeing a seat, and travelling for 8 hours in some level of comfort (being able to get to the toilet easily etc)

The subtext of the article seems to be “first class travellers seem to think they are more important than me, f*** that, I’m going to sit there”. Ignore the class argument, In my experience, they are just people willing to pay to avoid travelling in the crush conditions he’s complaining about.

As ever, his real (very badly put, it seems) argument, is about insufficient capacity on these services (widely acknowledged on threads here about cross country overcrowding, I see). But moaning about the TM or BTP doing their jobs will do little to lengthen a 170 !

Morally, although not legally (the conditions of carriage favour the TOC), don't folk pay enough for their tickets to expect at least a seat, even in standard class?
 

nanstallon

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But using First Class for that purpose is misusing it on the TOC's part, though I understand it to some extent on commuter services. XC is heavily overcrowded, and the First Class fares are outrageous, while they still sell Advances on hugely busy trains. This all needs solving.

I personally most strongly resent paying for First Class on a long distance service to get a seat. Long distance services should, in normal circumstances, ensure a seat for everyone.

FWIW, though, I just avoid travelling on XC as far as possible, as it is a nasty, poorly-managed TOC with nasty, short trains.
Agreed. The Voyagers are a disaster, sometimes mitigated by coupling two sets together to form a decent length train, from the customer's point of view. They epitomise the British mentality of maximise profit, provide minimal service and the customer can whistle.
 

Journeyman

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I've never thought the Voyagers are fundamentally bad trains, it's just they're not suitable for what they're being used for, and I think the whole concept of CrossCountry as it currently exists needs a fundamental rethink.

I've often got the impression that the number of people making very long journeys on XC is very small, and that they've turned into a network of very long distance local trains, which shouldn't be the point at all. I think they need longer trains, calling at fewer stations, and with a fares structure that encourages long-distance use and prevents them being used for short hops within metropolitan areas.
 

Bletchleyite

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I've never thought the Voyagers are fundamentally bad trains, it's just they're not suitable for what they're being used for, and I think the whole concept of CrossCountry as it currently exists needs a fundamental rethink.

Agreed. I'm quite happy for a 10-car set on the WCML - enough capacity, big windows and VTWC maintain theirs properly.

I've often got the impression that the number of people making very long journeys on XC is very small, and that they've turned into a network of very long distance local trains, which shouldn't be the point at all. I think they need longer trains, calling at fewer stations, and with a fares structure that encourages long-distance use and prevents them being used for short hops within metropolitan areas.

Agreed.
 

AM9

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I've never thought the Voyagers are fundamentally bad trains, it's just they're not suitable for what they're being used for, and I think the whole concept of CrossCountry as it currently exists needs a fundamental rethink.

I've often got the impression that the number of people making very long journeys on XC is very small, and that they've turned into a network of very long distance local trains, which shouldn't be the point at all. I think they need longer trains, calling at fewer stations, and with a fares structure that encourages long-distance use and prevents them being used for short hops within metropolitan areas.
Where XC share routes with other TOCs e.g. Northern and WMR, are the loads balanced between the (usually) different types of accommodation on the trains or does the 'Reading problem' previal?
 

hwl

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I've never thought the Voyagers are fundamentally bad trains, it's just they're not suitable for what they're being used for, and I think the whole concept of CrossCountry as it currently exists needs a fundamental rethink.

I've often got the impression that the number of people making very long journeys on XC is very small, and that they've turned into a network of very long distance local trains, which shouldn't be the point at all. I think they need longer trains, calling at fewer stations, and with a fares structure that encourages long-distance use and prevents them being used for short hops within metropolitan areas.
Mostly agreed, but the problems is the that XC is some times the only journey provider or "local" TOC isn't providing enough capacity.
IEPs and some other changes (GTI HSTs) should improve the situation in somewhat in the GWR area, ditto Edinburgh - Newcastle - York with more TPE, First OA and LNER but Northern and LNWR areas would need major interventions to cope without XC and many users would still be left with slow journey times with the local TOC. The are also places where there isn't capacity to add extra services.

Not a simple problem with uniform solutions hence one of the reason for Franchise delay.
 

hwl

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Where XC share routes with other TOCs e.g. Northern and WMR, are the loads balanced between the (usually) different types of accommodation on the trains or does the 'Reading problem' previal?
A bit of Reading in places (but even worse timing differentials so more justifyable) but there is insufficient (or sometimes No) Northern and WMR capacity to cope with the user level. e.g. XC picking up the consequences of "No Growth" franchises of the SRA era.
 

Journeyman

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Mostly agreed, but the problems is the that XC is some times the only journey provider or "local" TOC isn't providing enough capacity.

Yes, I appreciate that - you'd need to make sure other trains could take up the slack before you could do much.
 

mrcheek

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So British, and utterly pathetic. Why should police time be spent on pursuing a private company's claim against a passenger, sorry customer? And how much time of other travellers is wasted when trains are delayed for this kind of dispute?
because its is not a private claim. It is a criminal offence, plain and simple
 

mrcheek

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I personally most strongly resent paying for First Class on a long distance service to get a seat. Long distance services should, in normal circumstances, ensure a seat for everyone.
I resent most strongly when I pay extra for First Class, and then somebody who hasnt paid that extra thinks that he has the right to be there
 

DarloRich

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Isn't this just another local rag story looking for something to wind up its readers on a slow news day? The reporting is laden with emotive words (at least to their target readership) and irrelevances to get a sympehtetic response, for instance:
what has the "The 26-year-old - who pays £142 for a monthly pass" got to do with the matter? Every other passenger would (or maybe should) have paid the correct amount for their travel. Under £4 for 15 miles anytime journey into the UK's second city is a reasonable fare anyway.

agreed - i wish my monthly commute cost only £142!
 
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