Used my mom's freedom pass, got caught and received a letter from TFL:

Haywain · 11 Apr 2019

cuccir said:
Again, though, beyond pointing out the possible existence of such a defence, I would want to leave it to a lawyer who has seen your evidence to advise on the quality of that defence.

And I suspect that to mount such a defence you would need to use a specialist solicitor rather than a general criminal solicitor. That would probably cost a significant amount in comparison to the likely level of fine for pleading guilty. The choice, however, is entirely yours, Dyda.

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Puffing Devil · 11 Apr 2019

cuccir said:
I think it's a Single Justice Procedure Notice. These are issued by courts as an alternative to a summons. If you plead guilty, then your case is dealt with without going to court; fines are generally lower than in court convictions as you're saving the court time and money.

There is no additional discount for Single Justice Procedure disposals, the usual discount applies for an early guilty plea.

ForTheLoveOf · 12 Apr 2019

Haywain said:
And I suspect that to mount such a defence you would need to use a specialist solicitor rather than a general criminal solicitor. That would probably cost a significant amount in comparison to the likely level of fine for pleading guilty. The choice, however, is entirely yours, Dyda.

I don't really agree - it is not as if it is a very intricate point of law that relies on obscure case law or anything - all you are doing is putting the prosecution to strict proof that the offence is made out in all aspects as claimed. Any competent criminal law solicitor/barrister should be able to bring such a defence, really.

cuccir · 12 Apr 2019

Puffing Devil said:
There is no additional discount for Single Justice Procedure disposals, the usual discount applies for an early guilty plea.

But costs should be lower, yes? I know technically costs are independent of the fine element, but the overall impact is that the convicted person pays less.

Dyda · 12 Apr 2019

robert7111a said:
Does your latest letter mention anything about a settlement- or have you actually been summoned to attend court?

no, there is no settlement mentioned and I have 3 options:
1 - plead under the single justice procedure
2- guilty in court
3 not guilty

Dyda · 12 Apr 2019

Dyda said:
no, there is no settlement mentioned and I have 3 options:
1 - plead under the single justice procedure
2- guilty in court
3 not guilty

I think I can either do it by post or online https://onlineplea.cjscp.org.uk/onlineplea/start.xhtml

Dyda · 12 Apr 2019

cuccir said:
Well the conviction (preusming you plead guilty) will exist, and will be somehere presumably on the Police National Computer: if you ever apply for a job at MI5 I'm sure they'll find it! But you do not need to declare it, ever and it should not appear on DBS checks in most cases. The only reason for my uses of 'presumably' and 'most' is that we don't necessairily know what checks are done for the most secure jobs - think police, prison service, etc etc. Perhaps unsurprisngly, this information is not freely available! But if you're getting a DBS for a job such as teaching or volutneering at a local charity, it won't appear.

I think it's a Single Justice Procedure Notice. These are issued by courts as an alternative to a summons. If you plead guilty, then your case is dealt with without going to court; fines are generally lower than in court convictions as you're saving the court time and money.

It would be irresponsible of us to provide direct advice on this sort of question - really only a lawyer with access to the evidence can provie a definitive answer.

BUT three things to think about:
1. Pleading guilty will get this sorted very quickly and definitively
2. I can't think why someone chosing to plead guilty would do so in court rather than via the SJPN, but I'm sure there will be some good reasons in some cases! I guess if someone was hoping to mitigate the level of fine perhaps?
3. Furlong's questions above relate to the fact that you are being charged with entering a "compulsory ticket area" which is defined (with my emphasis) as

If such a notice doesn't exist at the entrance to Northolt station that you used, it might be possible to create a defence against this charge in court, despite using your mother's pass. Again, though, beyond pointing out the possible existence of such a defence, I would want to leave it to a lawyer who has seen your evidence to advise on the quality of that defence.

Thank you, I just want to plead guity and not despute anything as I as guilty.
The only worry I still have is this criminal conviction - if the letter says noting about a settelment can I still propose it when I plea guilty? Or ask them not to give it to me?

Dyda · 12 Apr 2019

cuccir said:
But costs should be lower, yes? I know technically costs are independent of the fine element, but the overall impact is that the convicted person pays less.

The letter says if I plead guilty using one of theoptions in this notice I will usually get 33% reduction on any fine.
But I don't really care about the money, just the criminal notice

Will I get it or not? and really how to avoid it?

Puffing Devil · 12 Apr 2019

cuccir said:
But costs should be lower, yes? I know technically costs are independent of the fine element, but the overall impact is that the convicted person pays less.

No - it costs the same to bring the case to court. The only difference is that the guilty pleas are heard by a single justice not a bench of 2 or three. Progression is more rapid. Costs are not those of the court system (though that was attempted by the Criminal Courts Charge brought in by a certain Mr Grayling, in 2015. It was repealed by Gove when he took over, which many see as the only positive element of his stint as justice minister). Costs are those of the prosecution and they need to prepare the same case as if it were going to a full bench.

30907 · 12 Apr 2019

Dyda said:
Thank you, I just want to plead guity and not despute anything as I as guilty.
The only worry I still have is this criminal conviction

As TfL have chosen to prosecute you under railway byelaws a conviction is not recordable (on the Police National Computer) so once you've paid the fine and costs that's it.

The exceptions are so rare you can ignore them, but if you really want to know read the Penalties paragraph of this
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ing-guide-section-8-legal.71833/#post-1208486

Dyda · 12 Apr 2019

30907 said:
As TfL have chosen to prosecute you under railway byelaws a conviction is not recordable (on the Police National Computer) so once you've paid the fine and costs that's it.

The exceptions are so rare you can ignore them, but if you really want to know read the Penalties paragraph of this
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ing-guide-section-8-legal.71833/#post-1208486

I've just read it and it says that they create an offence - I'm not really sure what the offence is and how long it will stay on my record. Any help with this please

cuccir · 12 Apr 2019

Puffing Devil said:
No - it costs the same to bring the case to court. The only difference is that the guilty pleas are heard by a single justice not a bench of 2 or three. Progression is more rapid. Costs are not those of the court system (though that was attempted by the Criminal Courts Charge brought in by a certain Mr Grayling, in 2015. It was repealed by Gove when he took over, which many see as the only positive element of his stint as justice minister). Costs are those of the prosecution and they need to prepare the same case as if it were going to a full bench.

Fair enough

cuccir · 12 Apr 2019

Dyda said:
I've just read it and it says that they create an offence - I'm not really sure what the offence is and how long it will stay on my record. Any help with this please

Dyda said:
Thank you, I just want to plead guity and not despute anything as I as guilty.
The only worry I still have is this criminal conviction - if the letter says noting about a settelment can I still propose it when I plea guilty? Or ask them not to give it to me?

There is no chance to settle out of court at this stage. You can either plead guilty via letter/online; plead guilty but ask to be tried in court; or plead not guilty. Those are your three options now. If you plead guilty you are admitting a crime, and will be fined accordingly.

There is not a really one single 'record' that we all have. But there is what gets recorded on the police national computer: a Byelaws conviction will not be recorded on this. It also therefore will not appear on DBS checks, and you do not have to declare it on any job application.

Non-recordable offences are still noted down somewhere of course. Often this will be on local police records, so if you had issues with police in the local area, or someone really went digging they might be able to find it. Unlock have a useful summary of this. But in normal circumstances this doesn't create what we'd usually call a criminal record.

Dyda · 12 Apr 2019

So does everyone agree that, if I plead guilty outside the court tomorrow I will NOT GET A CRIMINAL RECORD?
at this point this is my only worry...
When I see a huge fine I will start freaking out but at least knowing there will be NO criminal record??? Is that right?

najaB · 12 Apr 2019

Dyda said:
So does everyone agree that, if I plead guilty outside the court tomorrow I will NOT GET A CRIMINAL RECORD?
at this point this is my only worry...
When I see a huge fine I will start freaking out but at least knowing there will be NO criminal record??? Is that right?

In the traditional sense of the phrase, no you will not.

Dyda · 13 Apr 2019

Thank you all. I am trying to plead guilty online and it says:

This is your chance to respond. Please note:

you’re being charged with a criminal offence and you may wish to take legal advice before making your plea
all evidence is in the notice sent to you
if you plead guilty, we will reduce your fine by up to 33%
if you are convicted after trial your costs may be higher than if you had pleaded guilty

and then
What you’ve been charged with
Charge information
Enter a compulsory ticket area on the Transport for London regional railway network without a valid ticket
On 09/11/2018... At ... Did enter a compulsory ticket area without having with him a valid ticket.

Contrary to byelaw 17(1) and 23 of the Transport for London Railway Byelaws made under paragraph 26 of Schedule 11 to the Greater London Authority Act 1999 and confirmed under section 67 of the Transport Act 1962.

I am so confused now

please can you help?
I actually seems I will indeed get a criminal record

Please, please can you let me know what that means?

Dyda · 13 Apr 2019

and when I plead guilty it says: You’re declaring you committed the offence you may get a penalty.

So no mention of a criminal record...
I am so sorry to be such a pain for all or you but I am really a paranoid person and and I am still panicking that I will indeed get it even if you reassure me that I will not....

najaB · 13 Apr 2019

Dyda said:
I actually seems I will indeed get a criminal record

Byelaw offences are non-recordable.

Haywain · 13 Apr 2019

Dyda said:
and when I plead guilty it says: You’re declaring you committed the offence you may get a penalty.

So no mention of a criminal record...
I am so sorry to be such a pain for all or you but I am really a paranoid person and and I am still panicking that I will indeed get it even if you reassure me that I will not....

It is a criminal offence but it does not generate a criminal record.

ForTheLoveOf · 13 Apr 2019

Dyda said:
Thank you all. I am trying to plead guilty online and it says:

This is your chance to respond. Please note:

you’re being charged with a criminal offence and you may wish to take legal advice before making your plea

all evidence is in the notice sent to you

if you plead guilty, we will reduce your fine by up to 33%

if you are convicted after trial your costs may be higher than if you had pleaded guilty

and then
What you’ve been charged with
Charge information
Enter a compulsory ticket area on the Transport for London regional railway network without a valid ticket
On 09/11/2018... At ... Did enter a compulsory ticket area without having with him a valid ticket.

Contrary to byelaw 17(1) and 23 of the Transport for London Railway Byelaws made under paragraph 26 of Schedule 11 to the Greater London Authority Act 1999 and confirmed under section 67 of the Transport Act 1962.

I am so confused now please can you help?
I actually seems I will indeed get a criminal record

Please, please can you let me know what that means?

You're being charged with a criminal offence. Not all offences create a criminal record - and this one is one that doesn't.

Dyda · 13 Apr 2019

Thank you all very much! I pleaded guilty without going to court, they should respond within 28 days. Stupidly I didn't put my emial address so I didn't receive a confirmation but I took a screenshot with the confirmation and when I tried to log in again the site said that this claim has already been submitted.
So now again is the waiting time...

Thank you all again for all your help and I will let you know the final verdict!

jumble · 15 Apr 2019

Hi Dyda
My take on this for what it's worth is that however hard done by you feel you are you have admitted that you used the card 10 times or so and TFL will probably be aware of this ( they could call you into an interview if they wanted to discuss)

Thye seem to have been quite lenienient in only prosecuting you for a single offence which means that the magistrates will only fine on the basis of this being a one off mistake and not as a serial fare evader.
I think your outcome could have been a lot worse especially if they had gone for RORA which would certainly have been a criminal record if you were found guilty

philthetube · 15 Apr 2019

cuccir said:
Well the conviction (preusming you plead guilty) will exist, and will be somehere presumably on the Police National Computer: if you ever apply for a job at MI5 I'm sure they'll find it! But you do not need to declare it, ever and it should not appear on DBS checks in most cases. The only reason for my uses of 'presumably' and 'most' is that we don't necessairily know what checks are done for the most secure jobs - think police, prison service, etc etc. Perhaps unsurprisngly, this information is not freely available! But if you're getting a DBS for a job such as teaching or volutneering at a local charity, it won't appear.

I think it's a Single Justice Procedure Notice. These are issued by courts as an alternative to a summons. If you plead guilty, then your case is dealt with without going to court; fines are generally lower than in court convictions as you're saving the court time and money.

It would be irresponsible of us to provide direct advice on this sort of question - really only a lawyer with access to the evidence can provie a definitive answer.

BUT three things to think about:
1. Pleading guilty will get this sorted very quickly and definitively
2. I can't think why someone chosing to plead guilty would do so in court rather than via the SJPN, but I'm sure there will be some good reasons in some cases! I guess if someone was hoping to mitigate the level of fine perhaps?
3. Furlong's questions above relate to the fact that you are being charged with entering a "compulsory ticket area" which is defined (with my emphasis) as

If such a notice doesn't exist at the entrance to Northolt station that you used, it might be possible to create a defence against this charge in court, despite using your mother's pass. Again, though, beyond pointing out the possible existence of such a defence, I would want to leave it to a lawyer who has seen your evidence to advise on the quality of that defence.

Possibly because, although guilty, were hard done to, maybe something which would not normally be prosecuted and felt that if magistrates heard the case there would be a chance of a better result,

also for an opportunity to see the prosecutor and try to negotiate an out of court settlement.

tony_mac · 15 Apr 2019

cuccir said:
It also therefore will not appear on DBS checks, and you do not have to declare it on any job application.

There is still a legal obligation to declare it, if asked, subject to the usual rehabilitation rules.
http://hub.unlock.org.uk/knowledgebase/convictions-employment-law-2/

A failure to do so is likely to lead to dismissal in the event that any lie is discovered and could also, potentially, lead to civil litigation (for breach of contract) and even further criminal charges.

Dyda · 16 Apr 2019

I am confused all over again

I thought my offence creates NO criminal record - or at least this is what I understood - is that still true?
and if I don't get a criminal record what should I declare?
Also my potential employers do not usually ask (well I've never been asked) if I have a criminal record so should I just take initiative and tell them "hey btw I was charged with a criminal offence and I pleaded guilty?"

Dyda · 16 Apr 2019

and what is RORA?

30907 · 16 Apr 2019

Dyda said:
Also my potential employers do not usually ask (well I've never been asked) if I have a criminal record so should I just take initiative and tell them "hey btw I was charged with a criminal offence and I pleaded guilty?"

If asked then it is obviously wise to tell the truth (you were convicted under TfL byelaw...), though in general an employer should only be asking about unspent convictions.

Dyda said:
and what is RORA?

The Regulation of Railways Act, which covers to the more serious offence of fare evasion, which is recordable (it is a crime of dishonesty).

Dyda · 16 Apr 2019

Thank you, and how long does it take to spend a conviction?

Islineclear3_1 · 16 Apr 2019

Dyda said:
Thank you, and how long does it take to spend a conviction?

1 year usually

cuccir · 16 Apr 2019

Dyda, you have plead guilty to a Byelaws offence. This conviction is instantly spent. You do not have to declare it in job applications. Do not concern yourself with anything about the RORA or anything else.

Tony_mac was correctly pointing out that there are a small number of jobs which have exceptions to the normal rules on criminal records, and he linked to a page which lists some jobs which might fall into this rule. If you were ever applying for these roles, it would be made very clear on an application that the job is an exception to the normal rules.

Used my mom's freedom pass, got caught and received a letter from TFL:

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