New trains for East Midlands Franchise

RealTrains07 · 9 May 2019

Jozhua said:
Better than putting a 125mph capable DMU on though, something of which is in incredibly short supply in the UK!

XC should have ordered new DMUs before now

EMT seems to run 222s on the derby crewe line successfully

RailUK Forums

talltim · 9 May 2019

Something that doesn't seems to have been mentioned is that Bi-Modes would actually be slower on the MML as it currently stand. Assuming a hypothetical Bi-model could match 222s on the unelectrified sections, they would be slower on the Bed-Pan section as the wiring is only rated for 100mph.

hwl · 9 May 2019

talltim said:
Something that doesn't seems to have been mentioned is that Bi-Modes would actually be slower on the MML as it currently stand. Assuming a hypothetical Bi-model could match 222s on the unelectrified sections, they would be slower on the Bed-Pan section as the wiring is only rated for 100mph.

Bed-Pan is being uprated for 125mph

Kneedown · 9 May 2019

talltim said:
Something that doesn't seems to have been mentioned is that Bi-Modes would actually be slower on the MML as it currently stand. Assuming a hypothetical Bi-model could match 222s on the unelectrified sections, they would be slower on the Bed-Pan section as the wiring is only rated for 100mph.

Hence the stipulation in the ITT that they must be capable of 222esque performance in diesel mode. Class 803? Bombardier Aventra back of a fag packet design?

talltim · 9 May 2019

hwl said:
Bed-Pan is being uprated for 125mph

Any information on when?

Japan0913 · 9 May 2019

"Bombardier 125mph bi-mode Aventra" has sales operations in 2021 can do?

Bombardier bi-mode Aventra could feature battery power.
29/03/2018 railmagazine
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/bombardier-bi-mode-aventra-to-feature-battery-power

Bombardier has confirmed development of a 125mph bi-mode Aventra that could also include battery technology.
The Derby-based manufacturer plans to offer it to three upcoming franchise competitions, while also confirming it sees potential to export the trains.

Spokesman Will Tanner told RAIL that Bombardier plans to offer it for the East Midlands, West Coast Partnership and CrossCountry franchises, and confirmed that should any deals for the trains be won, they would be built at Derby Litchurch Lane where development work has already taken place.

Tanner explained that the company believes there remains a strong demand for bi-mode trains. The Aventra bi-mode would offer a maximum 125mph speed in both diesel and electric, and Bombardier claimed the ambience would be far better than other bi-mode units on the market. An option for ‘last-mile’ battery power is also being considered.

squizzler · 9 May 2019

Japan0913 said:
Bombardier bi-mode Aventra could feature battery power.

Does that mean they are offering a tri-mode then (note that the new class 93 is classed as such)? In which case thank goodness for that, the MML will not have to suffer bi-modes after all.

RealTrains07 · 10 May 2019

“With all trains replaced and much higher capacity, our new franchise will renew the railway and support communities large and small across the East Midlands and beyond”.

Hopefully not a full fleet of cheap plastic looking aventras and stadlers :lol:

MarkyT · 10 May 2019

squizzler said:
Does that mean they are offering a tri-mode then (note that the new class 93 is classed as such)? In which case thank goodness for that, the MML will not have to suffer bi-modes after all.

They's still bi-mode though, just with a battery as well which might be able to cover shorter gaps in the wires without starting up the big diesels.
Possibly also useful for:
- Electric pull aways from unwired stations to avoid diesel emissions in built up areas.
- Supplementing diesel output for better acceleration off-wire where desirable.
- Absorbing some braking energy while off-wire for later reuse, rather than burning it all off through resistor banks.

RealTrains07 · 10 May 2019

whhistle said:
Reproduced here.

From Twitter: @samjessupdesign

THIS IS UNOFFICIAL

I feel like EMR train branding is more likely to be blue considering abellio already has companies in the uk with red, yellow and green trains. Blue would make sense tbh.

InTheEastMids · 11 May 2019

talltim said:
Any information on when?

If you look at the latest NR Enhancement Delivery Plan (Google it), it's in there as one deliverable as part of Key Output 1a

rich-leeds · 11 May 2019

So, the standstill period ended, and Abellio has now been confirmed. Their press release does not give much more away at this stage though:
https://www.abellio.com/news/ps600-million-improvements-east-midlands-railway-abellio-confirmed

Key quotes (Which includes the one RealTrains07 posted a couple up):

Abellio will invest £600 million including: brand new bi-mode intercity trains between the East Midlands, the North and London; a high-quality, dedicated, electric train service between London, Luton Airport and Corby; and the introduction of faster, modern, refurbished trains across the whole network.

“With all trains replaced and much higher capacity, our new franchise will renew the railway and support communities large and small across the East Midlands and beyond. “

Fleet renewal: all trains on EMR to be replaced with new bi-mode trains on intercity routes and high-quality refurbished trains on regional/local services between 2020 and December 2022;

More capacity: longer trains and more services on many routes providing 80% increase in capacity into Nottingham, Lincoln and St Pancras;

Chester1 · 11 May 2019

They will need to sign the deals before announcing the rolling stock. The delivery time strongly indicates that Bombardier will not be making the bi modes. I very much doubt they have the capacity to deliver by 2022. Its probably Hitachi with a more powerful diesel version of the IEP and if not, it will be Stadler.

RealTrains07 · 11 May 2019

Chester1 said:
They will need to sign the deals before announcing the rolling stock. The delivery time strongly indicates that Bombardier will not be making the bi modes. I very much doubt they have the capacity to deliver by 2022. Its probably Hitachi with a more powerful diesel version of the IEP and if not, it will be Stadler.

Most likely stadler considering its abellio. From the press release abellio have given, which trains are gonna kept and refurbished then?? Whats the plan regarding regional routes like crewe-derby or is that included in the 80%??

Just need a little more about plans on the regional routes, cause its not only capacity which is the issue in the East Midlands.

hwl · 11 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Most likely stadler considering its abellio. From the press release abellio have given, which trains are gonna kept and refurbished then?? Whats the plan regarding regional routes like crewe-derby or is that included in the 80%??

Just need a little more about plans on the regional routes, cause its not only capacity which is the issue in the East Midlands.

They have actually ordered far more Bombardier and fair bit of Hitachi stock too...

700007 · 11 May 2019

If we are going on order lengths and contract relations then it is probably worth noting that Bombardier will most likely not be able to deliver a full fleet in service by 2022. Their reputation with the Aventra platform right now is in tatters having practically been running late and having the fleet plagued with issues left, right and centre. Two of the Aventra orders funny enough belong to Abellio and both are assumedly running late (GA definitely is by miles, but can't help but imagine that WMT is as well). Will Abellio really want to be zapped one more time to learn their lesson?

Stadler is a good shout as their GA order looks to be going well and it is expected that the trains will enter service some time in the summer apparently. As far as the public is concerned, the relationship between the two companies still seem to remain pretty sweet.

Hitachi would probably also be able to fulfill a new train order as well and has a wealth of experience in manufacturing bi-mode 125mph trains as seen in abundance on Great Western Railway, Hull Trains, Transpennine Express, LNER and the new East Coast Open Access operator.

Jozhua · 11 May 2019

700007 said:
Hitachi would probably also be able to fulfill a new train order as well and has a wealth of experience in manufacturing bi-mode 125mph trains as seen in abundance on Great Western Railway, Hull Trains, Transpennine Express, LNER and the new East Coast Open Access operator.

Totally agree! Does anyone know if it would be possible to create a new 80X with 900hp engines under each coach? That would certainly be a fantastic 222 replacement! I wonder if the coaches without diesel power handle the OHLE side of things though, although things don't always work out like that...

hwl · 11 May 2019

700007 said:
If we are going on order lengths and contract relations then it is probably worth noting that Bombardier will most likely not be able to deliver a full fleet in service by 2022. Their reputation with the Aventra platform right now is in tatters having practically been running late and having the fleet plagued with issues left, right and centre. Two of the Aventra orders funny enough belong to Abellio and both are assumedly running late (GA definitely is by miles, but can't help but imagine that WMT is as well). Will Abellio really want to be zapped one more time to learn their lesson?

Stadler is a good shout as their GA order looks to be going well and it is expected that the trains will enter service some time in the summer apparently. As far as the public is concerned, the relationship between the two companies still seem to remain pretty sweet.

Hitachi would probably also be able to fulfill a new train order as well and has a wealth of experience in manufacturing bi-mode 125mph trains as seen in abundance on Great Western Railway, Hull Trains, Transpennine Express, LNER and the new East Coast Open Access operator.

Isn't only the first unit required for extensive testing in early 2022 with most of the delivery during 2023?

Chester1 · 11 May 2019

Jozhua said:
Totally agree! Does anyone know if it would be possible to create a new 80X with 900hp engines under each coach? That would certainly be a fantastic 222 replacement! I wonder if the coaches without diesel power handle the OHLE side of things though, although things don't always work out like that...

This was discussed earlier in the thread. Transformers are in the end coaches so 7 x 940hp engines would be the maximum for a 9 coach set. 9 coach 800s and 802 have 5 engines. There is currently no evidence to support what size units will be. Many members would like to see some 5 coach sets to allow splitting and joining but it would be extremely challenging to design a 5 coach bi mode that could meet the minimum speeds specified on diesel.

hwl said:
Isn't only the first unit required for extensive testing in early 2022 with most of the delivery during 2023?

The wording appears to mean that units will be in service from 2022, rather than just being given to EMR for testing.

irish_rail · 11 May 2019

Would be nice if 802s were chosen in order to give some uniformity across the UK intercity fleets , that way if in future stuff gets cascaded elsewhere it can easily move without months of training for staff. Just need 802s on xc then the vast majority of stuff would be standardised.

Chester1 · 11 May 2019

irish_rail said:
Would be nice if 802s were chosen in order to give some uniformity across the UK intercity fleets , that way if in future stuff gets cascaded elsewhere it can easily move without months of training for staff. Just need 802s on xc then the vast majority of stuff would be standardised.

802s are too slow on diesel to meet the franchise specifications. If its Hitachi then it will be a higher powered variant e.g. an 803.

ABB125 · 11 May 2019

Would it be possible to fit smaller engines in the driving vehicles to increase power? I'm not sure how effective (if at all) this would be though.
Alternatively, is it possible to move the pantograph to the middle of the train, resulting in just one coach with transformers and no engine (as the two end coaches could then be fitted with engines)?
Or perhaps put a medium-sized engine (perhaps 1500hp?) above the floor in each driving coach, taking up maybe 2/5 of the useable length (including the cab) as well as underfloor engines? You could call these end coaches "power cars".

(But seriously, is this at all a viable idea?)
Or perhaps a single vehicle dedicated to housing all the engine power? It would have a single cab to allow more engine space, with the engine running an alternator to power the traction motors throughout the train (an EMU that just happens to get its electricity from a big engine).
Then again, maybe just electrify the route!

hooverboy · 11 May 2019

Chester1 said:
This was discussed earlier in the thread. Transformers are in the end coaches so 7 x 940hp engines would be the maximum for a 9 coach set. 9 coach 800s and 802 have 5 engines. There is currently no evidence to support what size units will be. Many members would like to see some 5 coach sets to allow splitting and joining but it would be extremely challenging to design a 5 coach bi mode that could meet the minimum speeds specified on diesel.

The wording appears to mean that units will be in service from 2022, rather than just being given to EMR for testing.

I'm still of the belief that 24m+ coach lengths will be a problem on MML, so an off-the shelf 80x probably won't work.

hooverboy · 11 May 2019

ABB125 said:
Would it be possible to fit smaller engines in the driving vehicles to increase power? I'm not sure how effective (if at all) this would be though.
Alternatively, is it possible to move the pantograph to the middle of the train, resulting in just one coach with transformers and no engine (as the two end coaches could then be fitted with engines)?
Or perhaps put a medium-sized engine (perhaps 1500hp?) above the floor in each driving coach, taking up maybe 2/5 of the useable length (including the cab) as well as underfloor engines? You could call these end coaches "power cars". (But seriously, is this at all a viable idea?)
Or perhaps a single vehicle dedicated to housing all the engine power? It would have a single cab to allow more engine space, with the engine running an alternator to power the traction motors throughout the train (an EMU that just happens to get its electricity from a big engine).
Then again, maybe just electrify the route!

..I would say, to keep timings, you would want to avoid one centralised power/traction unit.would be better to have say two driver trailers/panto's, and the rest motorised.

Japan0913 · 11 May 2019

New operator of East Midlands rail services unveils plans for improvements to trains and timetables
11 May 2019
https://www.spaldingtoday.co.uk/new...ns-for-services-to-and-from-spalding-9069936/

Abellio has unveiled plans to improve rail services between Spalding, Sleaford, Lincoln and Peterborough. Photo supplied.
This train is the Class 172?

superalbs · 11 May 2019

Japan0913 said:
New operator of East Midlands rail services unveils plans for improvements to trains and timetables
11 May 2019
https://www.spaldingtoday.co.uk/new...ns-for-services-to-and-from-spalding-9069936/

Abellio has unveiled plans to improve rail services between Spalding, Sleaford, Lincoln and Peterborough. Photo supplied.
This train is the Class 172?

That's a class 730, an electric unit. I wouldn't read into it too much, because that's a different company, and probably just something they found.

ainsworth74 · 11 May 2019

Yes with the greatest of respect to the Spalding Today but I wouldn't trust any choice of image that they use....

Jozhua · 11 May 2019

hooverboy said:
..I would say, to keep timings, you would want to avoid one centralised power/traction unit.would be better to have say two driver trailers/panto's, and the rest motorised.

I like this, diesel engines/transformers at both ends but electric motors on all carriages to distribute traction power throughout the train! Would help increase acceleration vs one or two power cars and also reduce noise/vibrations in the passenger coaches. Or perhaps two 125mph capable locos and a rake of MK 5's, perhaps even a driving car with one super powerful loco.

Japan0913 · 11 May 2019

superalbs said:
That's a class 730, an electric unit. I wouldn't read into it too much, because that's a different company, and probably just something they found.

ainsworth74 said:
Yes with the greatest of respect to the Spalding Today but I wouldn't trust any choice of image that they use....

I understand.

Burgerstahl · 11 May 2019

Dark was that day when Diesel conceived his grim engine that begot you, vile invention, more vicious, more criminal than the camera even, metallic monstrosity, bale and bane of our culture, chief woe of our Commonweal. How dare the Law prohibit hashish and heroin yet license your use, who inflate all weak inferior egos? Their addicts only do harm to their own lives: you poison the lungs of the innocent, your din dithers the peaceful, and on choked roads hundreds must daily die by chance-medley. Nimble technicians, surely you should hang your heads in shame. Your wit works mighty wonders, has landed men on the Moon, replaced brains by computers, and can smithy a "smart" bomb. It is a crying scandal that you cannot take the time or be bothered to build us, what sanity knows we need, an odorless and noiseless staid little electric brougham.

W.H. Auden (1907-1973), A Curse:

New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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