Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Will these trains actually show on the departure screens heading North if they are set down only at Bolton heading South?
If they are pick up only going north, they will show at Bolton, yes.
Will these trains actually show on the departure screens heading North if they are set down only at Bolton heading South?
To start with until they twig. The concerns are with the early-hours commuters who do the trip daily, it won't take them long to work out a get-around! During the day when there's many fewer pax - not letting on a literal handful would be pretty miserable of TPE.
Definitely so. The ECML between any of Darlington/Durham/Newcastle is served by any of TPE, XC, and LNER. The ticket combinations available include off-peak, anytime and advance/specified train only, as well as TPE-only and XC-only of the 2 former options.That might well do a good job, although it would introduce at Bolton a different culture to what they are used to. As said above, Bolton is very "turn up and go". You'd have to introduce checks to ensure that only TPE tickets were being used. That puts pressure on staff and passengers.
Until one morning when the Northern service is cancelled , delayed or short formed and then you have a platform full of passengers who have been unable to board who try to board the next train .I thought an idea mooted was to path a Northern service immediately in front of the TPE to soak up commuters.
I can just see the story in the local papers now , or the raft of report forms from staff verbally abused or assaulted for trying to enforce this .Surely it's enforced by flogging a new ticket when you do the ticket check? The TOC get their money, the passenger maybe learns their lesson - no problem?
Although they are shown as set down only in the timetable, and they won't wait for people and you cannot get a travel on them, I would dispute that boarding these trains is in any way 'unofficial' given that they are displayed on departure boards on the platform as available trains to London Liverpool Street!
There is only 1tph of this now, but staff have always been very big on enforcing it. If you try, expect the guard to see you and the train will not depart until you are found (or they give up). I remember once staff going through a train to find someone who had boarded (they were shouting about it as they did), they kept quiet and got away with it.
Going the other way the Euston barrier staff will not let you through with a ticket to Watford.
So just add further barriers to rail travel and screw the passenger, who in an equivalent situation say the week/month beforehand would have been entirely innocent? The lesson learnt by the passenger will be to drive into Manchester next time if they've ended up paying for 2 tickets and been told off by the guard. Some of the car parks on the outskirts are ridiculously cheap, especially on the wasteland only just behind Victoria.Surely it's enforced by flogging a new ticket when you do the ticket check? The TOC get their money, the passenger maybe learns their lesson - no problem?
So service distruption. Maybe the long distance passengers can cope with 20 minutes of Bolton passengers on their service. There seems to be a notion that TPE Scottish/Cumbrian passengers have an exclusive entitlement to a standee-free and commuter-free service for the final 20 minutes into/out of Manchester.Until one morning when the Northern service is cancelled , delayed or short formed and then you have a platform full of passengers who have been unable to board who try to board the next train .
So just add further barriers to rail travel and screw the passenger, who in an equivalent situation say the week/month beforehand would have been entirely innocent? The lesson learnt by the passenger will be to drive into Manchester next time if they've ended up paying for 2 tickets and been told off by the guard. Some of the car parks on the outskirts are ridiculously cheap, especially on the wasteland only just behind Victoria.
But if we are going to make a railway fit for purpose, long-distance trains being used by commuters, or vice-versa, don't always work. Not for TOCs, not for passengers, not for passenger comfort.So just add further barriers to rail travel and screw the passenger, who in an equivalent situation say the week/month beforehand would have been entirely innocent? The lesson learnt by the passenger will be to drive into Manchester next time if they've ended up paying for 2 tickets and been told off by the guard. Some of the car parks on the outskirts are ridiculously cheap, especially on the wasteland only just behind Victoria.
So service distruption. Maybe the long distance passengers can cope with 20 minutes of Bolton passengers on their service. There seems to be a notion that TPE Scottish/Cumbrian passengers have an exclusive entitlement to a standee-free and commuter-free service for the final 20 minutes into/out of Manchester.
But TPE carries commuters from Huddersfield and Dewsbury to Leeds and from Newton-le Willows to both Manchester and Liverpool, even though there are slower alternatives. And what about Penrith - Carlisle or Wigan - Warrington, where there are no local services?But if we are going to make a railway fit for purpose, long-distance trains being used by commuters, or vice-versa, don't always work. Not for TOCs, not for passengers, not for passenger comfort.
But TPE carries commuters from Huddersfield and Dewsbury to Leeds and from Newton-le Willows to both Manchester and Liverpool, even though there are slower alternatives.
And what about Penrith - Carlisle or Wigan - Warrington, where there are no local services?
So it is the North-bound flow that - somehow - will need controlling. So we're talking about boarding control in Manchester, and alighting control in Bolton.
So how do you tell me at Manchester Airport not to board that train which is going to my destination (Bolton)? Also, if it gets conveniently diverted via Wigan, if pax for Bolton ARE allowed on at MIA, what do they do when it gets diverted?And that way round just sticking a "u" on Bolton solves it completely (if you want to put enough uncertainty up the commuters, occasionally run it non-stop to Preston with an alternative running just behind for those from Bolton). For passengers doing Airport-Bolton there is the Blackpool service.
As alluded to above, towards Manchester isn't necessarily the problem, it's Manchester - Bolton where those bound for further north might not get a seat until Bolton - however wouldn't they be able to reserve a seat when buying their long-distance ticket/They'll just not advertise the service as stopping at Bolton.
Some will be in the know and will get on, but many won't especially if another Bolton service is following behind, which is quite likely.
No need for all this over the top talk as if some here are deliberately going to go out of their way to board and alight at Bolton just to make a point.
Heading North, the passengers from Manchester to Glasgow presumably want to sit down all the way - but without any restriction, they'll be fighting Bolton commuters for their seats until the train gets to Bolton..
The issue is that Manchester to Scotland passengers want to be able to get on the train without and not be prevented from doing so because the train is full of people going to Bolton.
When the Scotland trains were diverted via Wigan they initially called there and again overcrowding was a problem (but at least The Shouters hadn't appeared then). The Wigan stop was subsequently taken out of most TPE service but that was no major problem as Wigan has frequent Virgin trains to Scotland.
So how do you tell me at Manchester Airport not to board that train which is going to my destination (Bolton)? Also, if it gets conveniently diverted via Wigan, if pax for Bolton ARE allowed on at MIA, what do they do when it gets diverted?
.Because it's not a train for local journeys within Greater Manchester. There are others you can use. The same argument applies to Picc.
Most people won't. There are a number of VTs from Euston in the evening peak that stop set-down-only at MKC, and there are not manual ticket checks for every VT departure at Euston (though it's most these days). You only see at most one or two having "been a bit cheeky" and getting off when you board at MKC going north.
No, because their local journey might well prevent someone else getting their train for Scotland. There are other options for Bolton, nothing else for Scotland.How about passengers with longer distance tickets to Bolton who change at Manchester for their last leg. Will their tickets be valid?
As alluded to above, towards Manchester isn't necessarily the problem, it's Manchester - Bolton where those bound for further north might not get a seat until Bolton - however wouldn't they be able to reserve a seat when buying their long-distance ticket/
Trying to enforce pick-up/set-down won't work if the train is the most attractive one for commuters. The solution is a crowd-busting fast train 5mins before the TPE. Start it at Bolton so commuters will definitely go for it as they'll get a seat. Same in the evening.
That would be all very well, but Castlefield is full and they don't want to go to Victoria.
*Not sure which section so I'll drop it in here*
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/new...n-again-but-commuters-will-not-be-allowed-on/
Presumably there will be no timetabled departure and signs will say "This train should not be boarded" or something?
So when these trains call at Bolton to drop off, how can passengers be prevented from joining? If they got on, with a BON/MAN ticket, unless it's a specific advance then what can a guard/conductor do?
I suppose they can state BON>MAN tickets "not valid on this service" but how would they cope with Manchester Wayfarers etc? And those ticketed to the airport but simply alight at Piccadilly and disappear?
As one of the commenters mentioned,
Are TPE trying to create more problems than they are trying to solve? Are there any other examples in the country? In the 90's the then TOC running Airport/Piccadilly/Bolton/Preston in the wee small hours (0120 ish) said it was set down only at Piccadilly - but many like myself got on at Picc so eventually they decided it was a pointless restriction.