TPE Scotland/Bolton/Manchester. How to stop commuters boarding?

[Mogster]

Bolton has a great service to Manchester. OK most of the stock may be old but the speed, with the new line upgrades, and frequency, putting the general rail congestion issues in Manchester to one side, is great.

As someone who commutes from Wigan to Manchester the service Bolton has is something I view with some envy...

 

[Adsy125]

So they are never going to make the train unable to pick up there, as it will cost them money.

But they are making it pick up/set down only...

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this was the case in 2017 it certainly isn't now. We have a poor hourly service on the Atherton line on Sundays.

The North is full of lousy Sunday services, and that won't get resolved until someone properly bites the bullet over bringing Sunday into the working week.

 

[Starmill]

The North is full of lousy Sunday services, and that won't get resolved until someone properly bites the bullet over bringing Sunday into the working week.

Or in the case of the Atherton line, the service was enhanced to 2tph and then quietly binned when they realised they were unable to resource it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or in the case of the Atherton line, the service was enhanced to 2tph and then quietly binned when they realised they were unable to resource it.

To be fair that's better than claiming it is 2tph then cancelling half of it routinely.

 

[Trackman]

29th July it's starting (nothing in RTT yet).

RTT has now been updated.
It's only a limited service with nothing at peak times.
Also I can book an advance ticket from Bolton to Picc on a TPE service.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

RTT has now been updated.
It's only a limited service with nothing at peak times.
Also I can book an advance ticket from Bolton to Picc on a TPE service.

What about Piccadilly to Bolton?

 

[VT 390]

RTT has now been updated.
It's only a limited service with nothing at peak times.
Also I can book an advance ticket from Bolton to Picc on a TPE service.

If TPE are selling Advanced tickets for Bolton to Piccadilly won't this take up a reservation which could be used for someone travelling for longer to Manchester?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If TPE are selling Advanced tickets for Bolton to Piccadilly won't this take up a reservation which could be used for someone travelling for longer to Manchester?

You'd think so. This seems a bit silly.

 

[Ianno87]

If TPE are selling Advanced tickets for Bolton to Piccadilly won't this take up a reservation which could be used for someone travelling for longer to Manchester?

You'd think so. This seems a bit silly.

But gives TPE 100% of the fare, not the ~12.5% they get from an Any Permitted.

Perhaps TPE are confident there'll be capacity on these trains anyway?

 

[si404]

Some commuters. There are those who change at Leighton on the way south from Bletchley to get to Euston 5-10 minutes quicker. Those ones I will never understand as they gain very little time but guarantee that they will not get a seat even though they had one from Bletchley (almost all peak time southbound services from Bletchley have a certain seat except when VT is disrupted).

It's worth doing northbound though.

hang on, what train stopping at Leighton Buzzard doesn't stop at Bletchley? Just arrive later/wait at Bletchley and take that faster train.

It's not like Stanmore people changing off the Jubilee, boarding a Met and then changing back onto the Jubilee at Baker Street to get on the train one or two in front...

 

[cactustwirly]

You'd think so. This seems a bit silly.

Or it would use up a seat that is used later on in the journey from Bolton

 

[AM9]

You'd think so. This seems a bit silly.

Not really. If they find that selling seats to short-hop passengers creates problems for the passengers that the service is meant for, they can easily regulate the number of advances made available, (and raise the prices for short distance journeys).

 

[Trackman]

What about Piccadilly to Bolton?

Yes it indeed does, and book a seat.
1st class 'upgrade' between Bolton/Preston and Bolton/Picc is about the same £2.20 I think.

 

[mmh]

hang on, what train stopping at Leighton Buzzard doesn't stop at Bletchley? Just arrive later/wait at Bletchley and take that faster train.

It's not like Stanmore people changing off the Jubilee, boarding a Met and then changing back onto the Jubilee at Baker Street to get on the train one or two in front...

There are two trains in the morning peak which are fast from Leighton Buzzard to Euston which haven't stopped at Bletchley.

Such is the elaborate stopping pattern on the full southern WCML.

I don't know how you could catch up with those trains from earlier stops unless there is weaving between fast and slow lines and platforms happening, which on the enormous HS2 thread I was assured doesn't happen.

 

[Ianno87]

Or it would use up a seat that is used later on in the journey from Bolton

There'll be decent northward demand from Preston and Lancaster for starters.

If they were being clever, every time a seat is reserved north of Preston, flog off the otherwise wasted seat south thereof.

 

[Ianno87]

There are two trains in the morning peak which are fast from Leighton Buzzard to Euston which haven't stopped at Bletchley.

Such is the elaborate stopping pattern on the full southern WCML.

I don't know how you could catch up with those trains from earlier stops unless there is weaving between fast and slow lines and platforms happening, which on the enormous HS2

Historically, pre-Bletchley remodelling, it was related to the Slow Line platforms at Bletchley not being 12 car length. But the trains are so rammed, there isn't capacity to absorb an extra stop even though the platforms are long enough now.

 

[mmh]

There'll be decent northward demand from Preston and Lancaster for starters.

If they were being clever, every time a seat is reserved north of Preston, flog off the otherwise wasted seat south thereof.

Alternatively, don't have advance tickets for short routes where the walk up fare should be low enough that there's no need for them.

If the walk up fare is too high, reduce it.(Yes yes, I know sadly that won't happen)

 

[ic31420]

But gives TPE 100% of the fare, not the ~12.5% they get from an Any Permitted.

Perhaps TPE are confident there'll be capacity on these trains anyway?

I've often thought the way that fares are divided up could be better. The obvious thing being a ticket being scanned on a train and then the operator gets that ticke revenue. The remainder unscanned ticket revenue is divided up as is... Would encourage tocs to get through trains and check tickets.

 

[BluePenguin]

I am not sure you get the difference in mentality between North and South. I am a northerner. I live down south. The friendly people down here are mainly expat northerners. Fining older ladies is not what northerners do.

Everyone can clearly see that the trains, either the 319s, whatever replaces them or the TPE units will not have enough capacity. It will still be overcrowded as hell. And the railway solution seems to be to punish the passengers.

Punishing passengers is certainly not the answer. Any enforcement would most likely only hurt those who made an honest mistake. Any chancers would still get caught but would there really be that many?

The 319s are very old and desperately need replacing. Sending them up North as a stop gap is barely going to solve the problem. TPE stopping at Bolton in theory is a good idea. Yes, it could/would annoy long distance passengers although something has to give.

Nice new trains are for people in Leighton Buzzard, not the likes of Boltonians.

The difference in attitudes to transport in the north vs the south is sometimes quite stunning on this forum.

Honestly, you two are speaking as though the North and South are separate countries! Yes, the culture and mannerisms and way of doing things is very different. However I am sure nobody in the South would treat Doris any worse than if she was in Bolton. We do have compassion too you know!

There are a lot of well-mannered individuals down here who are not expat Northerners (lovely as they are, I often chat with them in London pubs) who would go out of their way to talk to or help you, many of them railway employees. Anyone who can't find a friendly Southerner clearly does not know where to look. Those from Cornwall/Devon, Sussex and Kent are particularly friendly, the ones who live in towns and villages rather than the odd big city few anyway.

The North does deserve better trains and has clearly been struggling for a while. I have travelled on Northern enough times and seen for myself the problems. However complaining about the likes of Leighton Buzzard will not magic new trains out of thin air.

 

[Bletchleyite]

hang on, what train stopping at Leighton Buzzard doesn't stop at Bletchley?

Two trains per hour do that, have a look at the timetable

It's not like Stanmore people changing off the Jubilee, boarding a Met and then changing back onto the Jubilee at Baker Street to get on the train one or two in front...

It's exactly like that. The way round I do it is to take the 1816 from Euston and change at Leighton, which can be onto the Southern, but when they can't be bothered with that there's what was the 1805 off Euston which by then has plenty of space.

With regard to that specific one, about 50 people do it daily. It's probably the busiest the northbound slow platform at Leighton ever gets with people waiting for a train.

But anyway nowt to do with Bolton

 

[Greybeard33]

RTT has now been updated.
It's only a limited service with nothing at peak times.
Also I can book an advance ticket from Bolton to Picc on a TPE service.

It can be seen from RTT that some but not all of the southbound services have the set down only restriction at Bolton. For the set down only services, the departure time is not bolded, i.e. not in the public timetable, and does not appear in GBTT column on the individual service page. Similarly, the arrival time is not bolded for the northbound pickup only services.

Southbound, the 1205, 1305, 1405, 1605, 1804 and 2305 arrivals are set down only and do not appear in journey planners for Bolton to Manchester or Manchester Airport. The 1005 and 1506 are unrestricted and can be booked.

Northbound, all the departures are pickup only, i.e. the 0642, 0944, 1244, 1344, 1944, 2044 and 2139. None of these are in journey planners for Manchester/Airport to Bolton.

In total, Bolton gets 8 TPE calls per day southbound but only 7 northbound.

 

[Ianno87]

It can be seen from RTT that some but not all of the southbound services have the set down only restriction at Bolton. For the set down only services, the departure time is not bolded, i.e. not in the public timetable, and does not appear in GBTT column on the individual service page. Similarly, the arrival time is not bolded for the northbound pickup only services.

Southbound, the 1205, 1305, 1405, 1605, 1804 and 2305 arrivals are set down only and do not appear in journey planners for Bolton to Manchester or Manchester Airport. The 1005 and 1506 are unrestricted and can be booked.

Northbound, all the departures are pickup only, i.e. the 0642, 0944, 1244, 1344, 1944, 2044 and 2139. None of these are in journey planners for Manchester/Airport to Bolton.

In total, Bolton gets 8 TPE calls per day southbound but only 7 northbound.

I wonder if, when the new rolling stock comes in, a few more stops might become fully 'open'? Makes sense to restrict for now, based on how busy most of the 4-car services are. i.e. they've only made open stops on the trains with adequate spare capacity.

 

[Howardh]

Notice that the service has been running a couple of days, has anyone tried to board at Bolton? If so, have their been any consequences?

 

[al78]

Honestly, you two are speaking as though the North and South are separate countries! Yes, the culture and mannerisms and way of doing things is very different. However I am sure nobody in the South would treat Doris any worse than if she was in Bolton. We do have compassion too you know!

I was born and bred up north and have lived down south for the last 17 years. The friendliness of people I interact with has nothing to do with whether they are native or have moved to the area. There are nice people and tossers wherever you go. I really don't get this ooop north daaahn saaaaarf primitive tribal nonsense, it is so irrational and detached from reality.

 

[MDB1images]

Notice that the service has been running a couple of days, has anyone tried to board at Bolton? If so, have their been any consequences?

Announcements made pre arrival of train at station plus revenue team in force to monitor/support/manage the services.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Also I can book an advance ticket from Bolton to Picc on a TPE service.

Highly doubt that, as the trains don’t even appear on the system for advance ticket sales between Bolton and Manchester!!

 

[Trackman]

Highly doubt that, as the trains don’t even appear on the system for advance ticket sales between Bolton and Manchester!!

They did at the time of writing, but have now disappeared.