LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

sd0733 · 11 Jun 2019

geoffk said:
Yesterday two late-running LNR Liverpool services were turned back at South Parkway and restarted from there. It's five today so far, and one turned at Runcorn. Did this happen before the May timetable change?

Yes to be fair I've regularly turned at South Parkway and even Crewe before this timetable was made. Although it does seem to be far more common
Another one which seems to happen to a lot of trains is to spin a Chase line at Hednesford rather than Rugeley, that seems very common and was almost unheard of before

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Idon'tKnow · 11 Jun 2019

Lots of southbound crewe via Trent Valley services terminated at MKC now (used to be quite uncommon) , and lots of northbound Trent Valley services terminated at Rugby (used to happen every now and then, but now very frequently).

Bletchleyite · 11 Jun 2019

sd0733 said:
Yes to be fair I've regularly turned at South Parkway and even Crewe before this timetable was made. Although it does seem to be far more common
Another one which seems to happen to a lot of trains is to spin a Chase line at Hednesford rather than Rugeley, that seems very common and was almost unheard of before

In my experience and observation this kind of thing was usual on the Liverpool-Brum services which are as a whole decidedly unpunctual and unreliable. However, previously this did not knock onto the Euston lines (which generally are punctual, give or take 5 minute sloppiness, and reliable). Now of course it does, so the whole lot is a mess.

matt · 11 Jun 2019

Aictos said:
Umm not sure if just me but running a set ECS from Northampton to Euston via Crewe sounds like a terrible use of resources!

Why not just terminate at Northampton then send the set/sets concerned onto the depot so they’re out of the way then send them ECS to Euston later on to reform the next service?

Unless I’ve misunderstood your post?

No you read it correctly. I can only assume there was a booked driver change at Crewe.

Bletchleyite · 11 Jun 2019

matt said:
No you read it correctly. I can only assume there was a booked driver change at Crewe.

And this is the issue with having complex, interrelated diagrams with little slack. You can't just cancel something and leave it in a siding for the round trip it didn't do, as it needs to be somewhere else.

It didn't work for Northern. It didn't work for LNR. Which TOC is going to be the next incompetent bunch of idiots to think they can make it work?

(It looks like, see the thread on that subject, TfW are actually going to add a unit into the Cambrian diagrams in order to undo it, so there is some sense in the world!)

sufian123 · 11 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
And this is the issue with having complex, interrelated diagrams with little slack. You can't just cancel something and leave it in a siding for the round trip it didn't do, as it needs to be somewhere else.

It didn't work for Northern. It didn't work for LNR. Which TOC is going to be the next incompetent bunch of idiots to think they can make it work?

(It looks like, see the thread on that subject, TfW are actually going to add a unit into the Cambrian diagrams in order to undo it, so there is some sense in the world!)

Haha. Not Franchise commitment isn’t it? LNR planned it wrong. Why didn’t they wait till December though?

Bletchleyite · 11 Jun 2019

sufian123 said:
Haha. Not Franchise commitment isn’t it? LNR planned it wrong. Why didn’t they wait till December though?

The through working is a franchise commitment (or was at least in their bid) - but the diagrams themselves won't have been. They just did it on the cheap and it's now biting all of us on the backside.

There's no reason it wouldn't be reliable if each destination was a self-contained set of diagrams[1] with at least ten minutes in the hour of layover. (and at least ten minutes of that at each of New St/International and Northampton). But that'd cost - whereas their business model is pile them high in the aisles and sell them cheap.

[1] So any given unit or member of staff would only, on any given day, work on ONE of:
- St Albans
- Marston Vale
- Tring stoppers and MKC semifasts
- Trent Valley
- Euston or International-Liverpool via Brum
- Euston-Rugeley via Brum
- Euston-Crewe via Brum

sufian123 · 11 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The through working is a franchise commitment (or was at least in their bid) - but the diagrams themselves won't have been. They just did it on the cheap and it's now biting all of us on the backside.

There's no reason it wouldn't be reliable if each destination was a self-contained set of diagrams[1] with at least ten minutes in the hour of layover. (and at least ten minutes of that at each of New St and Northampton). But that'd cost - whereas their business model is pile them high in the aisles and sell them cheap.

[1] So any given unit or member of staff would only, on any given day, work on ONE of:
- St Albans
- Marston Vale
- Tring stoppers and MKC semifasts
- Trent Valley
- Euston-Liverpool via Brum
- Euston-Rugeley via Brum
- Euston-Crewe via Brum

I agree. It’s a mess. They should’ve waited. Dft told them to do it. I’m sure they can delay it.

Bletchleyite · 11 Jun 2019

sufian123 said:
I agree. It’s a mess. They should’ve waited. Dft told them to do it. I’m sure they can delay it.

They'll have to do something about it. At present things are easily as bad as things got at Southern (minus the issues caused by industrial action). And they're only not as bad as Northern because New St and Northampton have more than two platforms each.

sufian123 · 11 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
They'll have to do something about it. At present things are easily as bad as things got at Southern (minus the issues caused by industrial action). And they're only not as bad as Northern because New St and Northampton have more than two platforms each.

What’s going to happen? Are we being asked to wait till Dec?

Bletchleyite · 11 Jun 2019

sufian123 said:
What’s going to happen? Are we being asked to wait till Dec?

I have not seen any kind of announcement about what might be done. At the moment it is just continuing in the same unpunctual, unreliable vein with no sign of improving in any way.

Aictos · 11 Jun 2019

matt said:
No you read it correctly. I can only assume there was a booked driver change at Crewe.

In which case, surely it would have made sense for the driver to travel pass to Milton Keynes on a VT set then get a LNR to Northampton?

Because if the Crewe driver signs via Northampton I fail to see why they couldn’t step up the driver change and do it at Northampton or even use a driver rostered spare and restart the Crewe service from Northampton?

The other question I have about stepping up the service on WCML South is apart from Northampton is can Platform 3 at Rugby be used?

sufian123 · 11 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I have not seen any kind of announcement about what might be done. At the moment it is just continuing in the same unpunctual, unreliable vein with no sign of improving in any way.

They never learn after northern and southern. What made them do it this May in the first place?

Bletchleyite · 11 Jun 2019

sufian123 said:
They never learn after northern and southern. What made them do it this May in the first place?

Presumably part of their bid to do so.

RealTrains07 · 11 Jun 2019

Damaged over head electric wires today, fixed before 10 and lines open but disruption continued all the way through till 16:00.

Timetable didnt help matters, cancelling half a service then running the other half delayed which is good until they cancel the second half.

The timetable is just multiplying problems after they get fixed ripples across the isolated trent valley line too

sufian123 · 11 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Presumably part of their bid to do so.

Don’t forget was delayed by a what a year?

sufian123 · 11 Jun 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Damaged over head electric wires today, fixed before 10 and lines open but disruption continued all the way through till 16:00.

Timetable didnt help matters, cancelling half a service then running the other half delayed which is good until they cancel the second half.

The timetable is just multiplying problems after they get fixed ripples across the isolated trent valley line too

They did that for maximum payment from network rail they can claim.

Bletchleyite · 11 Jun 2019

RealTrains07 said:
The timetable is just multiplying problems after they get fixed ripples across the isolated trent valley line too

Precisely the issue. With the old timetable (which did have some level of interworking) it was reasonably easy to fix issues like that by turning short at Northampton or completely splitting the service there with the "broken" side operating an emergency timetable of some kind. The new timetable is too complex for that to work and so the only time there's a chance for it to be fixed is overnight - assuming they manage not to hit the diagram that does the 0134 Euston-MKC and the 0330 MKC-Euston, the only unit that "stays out" all night - and if they do hit that you're going to get a knock-on into a second day too.

Sandy2 · 11 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I have not seen any kind of announcement about what might be done. At the moment it is just continuing in the same unpunctual, unreliable vein with no sign of improving in any way.

I suppose the question now is how long LNWR will tolerate decreased performance before they conclude that what they've implemented (as per franchise commitments) isn't sustainable.

I'm sure they'll be looking at how they can simplify things come May 20. Either that, or things will magically settle down and this will be retained for the foreseeable.

E6007 · 12 Jun 2019

A quick look at some historical ppm measures for Euston - Northampton. http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/WM/55 seems to show the decline in performance on this route since the new timetable came in. There might be better examples.

The Planner · 12 Jun 2019

sufian123 said:
What’s going to happen? Are we being asked to wait till Dec?

Too late for December unless its all altered by STP, it gets offered in a matter of days.

sufian123 · 12 Jun 2019

The Planner said:
Too late for December unless its all altered by STP, it gets offered in a matter of days.

Thanks

Bletchleyite · 12 Jun 2019

E6007 said:
A quick look at some historical ppm measures for Euston - Northampton. http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/WM/55 seems to show the decline in performance on this route since the new timetable came in. There might be better examples.

Interesting that in early 2018 it was that bad again. What happened then, I wonder? I don't remember that - the start of LM when it all went a bit wrong (largely due to Control moving to Birmingham and not being used to controlling the south WCML) was long before that.

Bletchleyite · 12 Jun 2019

Sandy2 said:
I'm sure they'll be looking at how they can simplify things come May 20. Either that, or things will magically settle down and this will be retained for the foreseeable.

I suppose it depends on what the main cause of the significant knock-on is. If it's mostly staff swapping between trains, they may well be able to recruit and slacken the crew diagrams without actually changing the timetable, or maybe change route learning between depots to cover better. If it's mostly units, perhaps some more 319s could come in, or they could split the 3 x 12-car diagrams down to 4 x 8-car (or 3 x 8 and a 12) to free up some 350s and maybe use them during the day too, or even bring more of them in[1]. If the timetable is just utterly unworkable...I hate to think.

[1] The slack this introduces could be used to have hot spare sets at Northampton to allow a heavily delayed train to be cancelled short and restarted on time with a fresh unit and crew, for instance.

sd0733 · 12 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I suppose it depends on what the main cause of the significant knock-on is. If it's mostly staff swapping between trains, they may well be able to recruit and slacken the crew diagrams without actually changing the timetable, or maybe change route learning between depots to cover better. If it's mostly units, perhaps some more 319s could come in, or they could split the 3 x 12-car diagrams down to 4 x 8-car (or 3 x 8 and a 12) to free up some 350s and maybe use them during the day too, or even bring more of them in[1]. If the timetable is just utterly unworkable...I hate to think.

A lot of the train crew diagrams arent tight as such it's the complexity of them. Such as a Crewe job working a trent to euston then straight back to Tring and back then a Northampton while the units are coming from Liverpool. There is also still a lot of route learning taking place which is taking large swathes out of some depots. Almost 10% of our guards are detached every week for London route learning
With regards to the 319s I dont believe there are now any PRM ready 319s left to lease. The only few left with no home are a few non PRM mostly not C6 overhauled FCC livery ones. Its doubtful workshop space even be found now with the amount of other PRM work to give them a full C6 and mods by the end of the year, any later and I cant see a leasing company paying up for around a max 12 month lease before all the 319s are offloaded presumably bu the first deliveries of 730s.

adrock1976 · 12 Jun 2019

As per my previous post regarding having a go at a post HS2 timetable, I have created a new thread at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ditional-intercity-timetable-post-hs2.184212/

I have curtailed the beyond Birmingham via Northampton back to New Street, as that was one of the things I had intended to do.

RealTrains07 · 13 Jun 2019

The only changes i have seen are the minor changes to diagrams with certain morning services gaining back extra carriages

LNW-GW Joint · 19 Jun 2019

I ventured round the 350 network today as far south as Coventry/Nuneaton, and everything on LNWR seemed to be punctual to a couple of minutes (around mid-day).
Extra capacity on many trains is much appreciated.
Front set only for short platforms (Atherstone, Rugeley).
Also tried the Leamington-Nuneaton run on a 172.
Good numbers Coventry-Leamington/Nuneaton, but quite thin at Kenilworth (eg 2-off/3-on).

Bletchleyite · 20 Jun 2019

And the debacle continues. 2 fasts cancelled south of Northampton in a row due to staffing issues.

And yet LNR aren't saying anything - this is genuinely getting worse than GTR.

I seriously hope they are haemorrhaging passengers and revenue, and are paying out lots of Delay Repay to ensure they can't be making any money out of this debacle. Those cancellations will mean two trains lopped or short formed in the evening peak from Euston too...other than ongoing issues on the Liverpool-Brum service, LM near enough never cancelled anything.

Very poor.

(I'm aware of the issues at Berko earlier, but it's again the overcomplicated diagrams and timetables that means it isn't possible to recover from that sort of thing quickly enough for an incident in the early afternoon not to make a mess of the evening peak)

sufian123 · 20 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
And the debacle continues. 2 fasts cancelled south of Northampton in a row due to staffing issues.

And yet LNR aren't saying anything - this is genuinely getting worse than GTR.

I seriously hope they are haemorrhaging passengers and revenue, and are paying out lots of Delay Repay to ensure they can't be making any money out of this debacle.

I’ve heard from a conductor, senior management don’t care, they not listening to passengers and staff. I can’t wait for dft to get involved!

LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

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