Sound advice. As someone who was responsible for disciplinary matters within a Faculty in an FE college, such a student would have received no meaningful sanctions from me and I would have been surprised and disappointed if my counterparts had acted differently.
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High cost of train travel apparently influencing peoples choice of university
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cactustwirly
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That's still a lot of duplicates they need to hire in!
Plus if there's a high demand, I double the coach would be very cheap.
In my experience Nat Ex are often the same price as the train anyway, from Reading to Bristol/Cardiff it's often cheaper to get the train anyway
Plus the fact the coaches are so slow, that you either have to get up at the crack of dawn or stay over the night before in a hotel, in order to get there in time.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's still a lot of duplicates they need to hire in!
If it's profitable, they'll get as many as they can. Nothing gained by them turning business away.
Yeah , in Glasgow or if you stay in the Central belt . Most just went to uni in Glasgow and stayed at the parents .People from up north moved to go t uni
Journeyman
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I went to uni in the mid-90s as well, and the cost of travel did influence my choices. I settled for a uni 60 miles away instead of one 300 miles away. The courses on offer were equally attractive, but I wanted to be able to travel home more often without worrying about the cost.
notlob.divad
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You are completly and intentionally ignoring the point. It doens't matter if a coach goes if it takes 4 times as loong requires an over night stay and THE SCHOOL WON'T LET YOU HAVE THE TIME OFF.
Are mates going is irrelevent because if you are a sensible 16/17 year old you don't discuss which universties you are applying to so as not to influence each others decision. (At least that is what we all agreed to) At 16 no mates wouldn't be able to drive. at 17 maybe if you./mum and dad can afford the insurance but that requires parents to lend the car and can you imagine parents letting 4 lads take the car to an open day?
So you want children to use a phone app to book a seat in a strangers car to travel to the other end of the country? Seriously!!!
Yes the only time I stayed over 15 years ago now, the University offered accomodation. That was the interview I alluded to above. And to get a train ticket for that I did the research that you suggest and demanded the ticket office gave me a 'not via London' ticket as they were adament that the only way to travel to Cambridge was to change in London at 3 times the cost of the change at Ely ticket I was asking for.
If you are a young but clever youngster, in a small town from a family with no history of university, the cost of travel, train or otherwise to get to an open day is just the first of a series of hurdles thrown in your way. The fact that people on here are attacking the youngsters trying to better themselves whilst defending the extortionate prices on the UK rail network which is by far the worst value for money in Europe is beggers belief.
notlob.divad
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Yet you advocate a policy where the railway prices potential customers out of the market away.
On an individual level, by all means do what is necessary to get into the university of choice. But just because someone roughed it, worked 2 part-time jobs, ate rice and lentils, lived in a tent and cycled home for Christmas and summer doesn't mean all students should do that. On a macro level, if transport costs are seen to be obstructive, then that ought to be investigated further.
The responses here indicate people's attitudes to social justice and I'm getting a sense that the "I'm alright jack" lot are the ones who also espouse that life is not fair. Easy enough to say when you have what you need, but we as a society should have an obligation to make things fairer. Widening access to university is a good place to start, so class and income is not a barrier to achieving aspirations and potential. This indeed has been done over the decades and should be done further.
The responses here indicate people's attitudes to social justice and I'm getting a sense that the "I'm alright jack" lot are the ones who also espouse that life is not fair. Easy enough to say when you have what you need, but we as a society should have an obligation to make things fairer. Widening access to university is a good place to start, so class and income is not a barrier to achieving aspirations and potential. This indeed has been done over the decades and should be done further.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If it's the only way you can go to the open day you really feel you need to go to for the uni you really want, then you'd need to make the decision to take the hit of whatever punishment you'd get and take the day off anyway.
It might be more difficult for a girl, but a strapping 16/17 year old lad is not vulnerable in that sense - 50 years ago they could well be working and married with a kid by then. If people are still parroting stranger danger to someone of that age, they need to consider the dangers that cotton-woolling is going to pose to their development.
Of course I discussed with my mates where I was going. And yes, I borrowed my parents' car on a number of occasions for use with mates, though not for uni open days. Not all parents have trust issues (and where they do, they also have motor insurance
).No, I'm just being realistic. You can sit at home and whine, or you can find a way to get where you want to be. It beggars even more belief that people on the thread are just choosing the "sit at home and whine" option.
It's small wonder places like China and India are beating us on the world stage when people whine about an overnight coach journey when there are people in those countries who, to get an education, walk 20+ miles a day, for instance.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Unless capacity is going to be provided to carry them, it basically has to.
One of her friends will have a car. Or she does. Or have access to one. Three mates/classmates (or someone’s parent to drive them (and able to put up with inane teenage babble)). It seems unlikely that there won’t be More of them looking at the same open days.
I have just driven from deepest Suffolk to Guildford. It’s taken 2 hours dead. I was driving a 2.5ton SUV. It’s done 45mpg. Use a 1.25 petrol fiesta and it’ll do 55mpg on that run driven easily. Use a diesel golf and it’ll do 70-80mpg driven right (our twin turbo Mercedes diesel did the trip at 71 mpg last month).
Suddenly the cost is the square root of less than a months data on the smartphone. Plymouth is roughly 200 miles from London or 300 from Manchester. So 400 or 600 miles round trips. Fifty to sixty quid in petrol/diesel. Or 12 to 15 quid each. Very little wear and tear on a car at motorway speeds as well. And it’s not as of planning a day trip should be beyond the wit of people planning to do a degree ....
I have just driven from deepest Suffolk to Guildford. It’s taken 2 hours dead. I was driving a 2.5ton SUV. It’s done 45mpg. Use a 1.25 petrol fiesta and it’ll do 55mpg on that run driven easily. Use a diesel golf and it’ll do 70-80mpg driven right (our twin turbo Mercedes diesel did the trip at 71 mpg last month).
Suddenly the cost is the square root of less than a months data on the smartphone. Plymouth is roughly 200 miles from London or 300 from Manchester. So 400 or 600 miles round trips. Fifty to sixty quid in petrol/diesel. Or 12 to 15 quid each. Very little wear and tear on a car at motorway speeds as well. And it’s not as of planning a day trip should be beyond the wit of people planning to do a degree ....
Journeyman
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Agreed - I didn't go to uni until I was 22, and when I was at school, I was amazed at how much my friends agonized over choices of uni where the quality and content of the courses was near enough completely indistinguishable.
By the time I decided I was going to go to uni, I'd decided on a specialized course which only realistically left me with a couple of choices.
From a fares policy point of view, I'm not sure that the railways are going to be particularly concerned. With most trains full or close to it, they're not going to be reducing fares to attract prospective university students on to rail. There's no gain in it for them.
If the government wants to use railways as a tool of social policy in this way, I don't have an issue as such. But if so, the railways need to have sufficient capacity for all the people who 'should' be able to travel by rail. And that means whacking great subsidies.
I visited three universities - though only over two trips, as Glasgow and Strathclyde universities had the sense to organise theirs back-to-back. As I recall, funds were available from the school for those who couldn't otherwise afford to go, and the school ran buses to Aberdeen for anyone interested in that university. In fact, going to university open days got me my first experience of a Voyager - I liked it then, and I still quite like them!
If the government wants to use railways as a tool of social policy in this way, I don't have an issue as such. But if so, the railways need to have sufficient capacity for all the people who 'should' be able to travel by rail. And that means whacking great subsidies.
I'm not sure that's the case. From my school, I'd say those of us who went to university were fairly evenly divided between the three cities of Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen - Aberdeen being the closest of the three but still several hours away.
I visited three universities - though only over two trips, as Glasgow and Strathclyde universities had the sense to organise theirs back-to-back. As I recall, funds were available from the school for those who couldn't otherwise afford to go, and the school ran buses to Aberdeen for anyone interested in that university. In fact, going to university open days got me my first experience of a Voyager - I liked it then, and I still quite like them!
Not technically true. There are tuition fees for Scottish students in Scotland, but they're much lower than in England and are fully funded by the Scottish government. The distinction is important - if there weren't fees, then other people couldn't be charged them.
There are times in life when the most sensible thing to do is ignore "rules."
Pupil: "I won't be in next Tuesday, I'm going to Blah University";
Teacher: "You can't go"
... is certainly a good example.
What on earth is the logic behind such a stance anyway?
So these smart people aren’t capable of finding a room in Newcastle. Or Darlington. Or anywhere else. And get a local train in at minimal cost. Just up the road. Newcastle is a town full of stag and hen do cheap hotels. Lord knows how they’ll do a dissertation. Or work out how to make a pot noodle.
coppercapped
Established Member
This is incorrect.
In 1962 I gained a maintenance grant from the Town Council which amounted to £60 for the year (three 10 week terms at £2 per week...), this was topped up by my parents as necessary - though as a point of pride I made sure I didn't have to ask. The Council also paid the tuition fees which were about the same order of magnitude. My parents had to pay for all of my accommodation - for the first two years in a Hall of Residence (an 1850s Victorian building with the large rooms sub-divided by plywood panels) and the final year in rented accommodation. These days the latter would be called an HMO (House of Multiple Occupancy).
Cushy, it wasn't.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And as I said you can do all that from the comfort of your smartphone (or the local library's Internet access computers, if you're so poor you can't even afford that). In the 1990s it was nowhere near as easy.
notlob.divad
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But in your world a coach company is apparently able to provide unlimited capacity.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's certainly a lot easier and cheaper for NatEx to put dupes on hired in "wet" (i.e. with driver) from small coach companies than it is to get rolling stock in place to provide that on the railway, and you know that very well.
notlob.divad
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Disruption of the lessons, disruption of your exam preperation / revision. Bear in mind the schools colleges and teachers are all judged by the exam results of their students as well, it is no longer about getting your students to become the best person they can be as individuals. But a machined learning environment were everyone is expected to achieve the level that has been predetermined for them.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Which just gives justification to ignore it and go anyway. And during that coach journey, you've got 8 hours or whatever each way to spend revising and learning - sorted.
Don't be a victim, be the person who finds a solution and gets where he/she wants.
Journeyman
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Well, there are - Scottish unis still charge them, it's just that the Scottish Government will pay them for Scottish students. Yet another piece of nasty nationalism, if you ask me - there's no reason why the Scottish Government couldn't pay for Scottish students to go to English unis, as it would cost them the same per student to do so. They just choose not to.
notlob.divad
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The railway wouldn't have to get stuff in the right place if it provided enough in the first place.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Which is all well and good in theory, but it doesn't get this year's students to university open days, does it?
Bromley boy
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Quite!
I suppose that’s the scarcity principle at work. In this country it is now considered a God given right, not a privilege, for everyone who wants one to receive a full primary, secondary and tertiary education.
As such education isn’t really valued in the way that it is in other societies and people expect everything handed to them on a plate. Hence the self entitled whining about what are minor inconveniences in the grand scheme of things.
Cost certainly kept me away from going to unis further afield, but more with the logic of "can I afford to pop home every so often" rather than open days. As it happens, a university two hours from home is #1 in the league tables for the course I wanted to study, so there wasn't much need to naff off to the other end of the country anyway. I can get home cheaply but it requires some thinking and splitting of tickets, but I regularly get home for £20 return a couple of days in advance, versus £40+ with a bog standard advance each way!
In my case, you were pretty much free to go to open days as and when you wished in year 12. Hence how I ended up where I am, as I'm sure it was a midweek open day!
As someone who now works for my university as well as studying there, I can't say that distance and cost are putting a lot of people off just yet, as I was in charge of an information stand on the railway station last weekend and at points it was incredibly busy.
Schools and colleges do organise their own trips as well and we've partnerships with a lot of them- a couple weeks back one school on the Isle of Man stopped by and I took them around on a tour- we were the 12th university they'd visited that week!
In my case, you were pretty much free to go to open days as and when you wished in year 12. Hence how I ended up where I am, as I'm sure it was a midweek open day!
As someone who now works for my university as well as studying there, I can't say that distance and cost are putting a lot of people off just yet, as I was in charge of an information stand on the railway station last weekend and at points it was incredibly busy.
Schools and colleges do organise their own trips as well and we've partnerships with a lot of them- a couple weeks back one school on the Isle of Man stopped by and I took them around on a tour- we were the 12th university they'd visited that week!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And that's probably fair enough, as even if something was put in place to give children aged 16-17 child rate fares provided they could prove they were travelling to apply for a job, university place or apprenticeship (let's be fair), for instance, there's still going to be the cost and time of going home for a weekend if you want, and an evening won't be possible. That was a strong influence on me choosing Manchester over Imperial (those being the two good CS universities at the time).
But that, like everything else, is a choice. If you want to take your washing home and have a meal with your family on a Sunday night, then that's a high priority for you, and you'd be best choosing a uni within an hour or two of home. It's not something to moan about, it's just something to decide what best suits you.
Absolutely.
If you are going to get on, whatever are going to do a degree in, you are going to have to be good at solving problems. We reward students (at least up to 'A' level) who can regurgitate facts, a largely pointless skill thanks to Mr Google. What we are useless at as a country but need is people who can solve problems. No one is going to shell out money to get students to Open Days. Government won't (next Prime Minister is either an Old Etonian or Old Carthusian so fat chance), local government won't (cash strapped), schools and colleges won't (ditto), railway companies won't (needs organising, and why should they, their duty is to shareholders) - actually, the odd university might, more likely 'in bulk' from a school or college, but you might want to ask 'why'. So you need to be more inventive. Numerous contributors have made worthy suggestions that deserve a closer look. I went to University at a time when you had to attend interviews - I saved up and supplemented this with money I earnt - delivering leaflets I think. If you want it, you'll find a way.
I don't think anyone is attacking youngsters. Your point about the cost of rail travel is sound but affects more than just students attending Open Days; it has been government policy for many years and isn't going to change any time soon. I can't remember reading many posts defending high rail fares. Contributors are merely being realistic.
alxndr
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I never went to university, so my closest comparison would be an apprenticeship interview in London. The time meant I had to leave earlier than the first train on my local line. There's no coaches my old neck of the woods and buses/taxis may well not exist.
If I was less fortunate I would have been fairly stuck. If I didn't have a part time job I wouldn't have had the funds to go. If my grandmother wasn't able to drive I wouldn't have been able to get a lift to Ipswich to begin my journey there. If it had been any further afield it would have been even more difficult without an overnight stay and more expense. I know other families in the village who would have found it nigh on impossible to organise with low income and the only driver working 3 jobs to scrape a living.
Whether you like it or not, travel is another barrier for education against those who don't have the bank of mum and dad to fall back on, especially in rural areas. Just getting to college for me meant a 30 minute moped journey plus an hour bus ride. If I didn't have the funds to pay for the moped in the first place I'd have had to leave at 4am or so for a three hour walk to the bus.
If I was less fortunate I would have been fairly stuck. If I didn't have a part time job I wouldn't have had the funds to go. If my grandmother wasn't able to drive I wouldn't have been able to get a lift to Ipswich to begin my journey there. If it had been any further afield it would have been even more difficult without an overnight stay and more expense. I know other families in the village who would have found it nigh on impossible to organise with low income and the only driver working 3 jobs to scrape a living.
Whether you like it or not, travel is another barrier for education against those who don't have the bank of mum and dad to fall back on, especially in rural areas. Just getting to college for me meant a 30 minute moped journey plus an hour bus ride. If I didn't have the funds to pay for the moped in the first place I'd have had to leave at 4am or so for a three hour walk to the bus.
Ah yes, crummy XC with it's overpriced, overcrowded trains is the weakest link as usual. Of course, we could have oodles of capacity tomorrow, but the Government (of either colour) would rather pull arbitrary deadlines out of its arse and render all of the surplus rolling stock useless.
My point about the special groupsave, is that the schools/universities could have a part in allocating.
I agree with you there.
That's a very good point. Bearing in mind the much greater cost to the student, it's not surprising that they'll want to take a close look at the options.
Exactly.
A very good point. If I was supporting a child's educational costs, I might want to see the product as well.
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