duffield
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Surely 2x2 at least for Nottingham to Liverpool?
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Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham
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Surely 2x2 at least for Nottingham to Liverpool?
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edwin_m
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Nottingham to Liverpool won't be an EMR service. 6-car 185s have been suggested.
Class 170101
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May be 170s in the interim until the route is split, if its split - I think was said elsewhere it wasn't a done deal.
londonmidland
Established Member
If TPE do get it, then six car 185's would be ideal for the route.
Personally I don't want Northern getting it, as I fear there will be a lot of short forms, dirty/un-refurbished trains and train crew issues appearing.
Personally I don't want Northern getting it, as I fear there will be a lot of short forms, dirty/un-refurbished trains and train crew issues appearing.
duffield
Established Member
Well, that's what I understood (TPE to run 185s probably, or possibly MK5s) - until hooverboy mentioned the 2/3 car 170's, that's the first time I'd heard that rumour.
But I suppose as per class 170101's post EMR might do something outrageous like that for the short period before they gave up the route on the grounds that they just didn't care anymore. However it would be very bad for their general reputation.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I posted about the possibility of mains sockets on both parts of a split Liverpool-Norwich service. I think that response was intended to comment only on the Nottingham-Norwich part but could have been interpreted as referring to both parts.
daodao
Established Member
I think all services along the Hope Valley should be operated by the EM franchise - after all, it is in the East Midlands. DafT seems to think otherwise, so the obvious choice is Northern, run as a "connect" service, along with the M/c-Cleethorpes train, which should be run similarly.
TPE should be broken up and absorbed into Northern, apart from the NW-Scotland services, which should be run by the WCML franchise. Capacity would be increased on the current TPE services if first class was removed.
hooverboy
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liverpool to norwich route is being split at nottingham, most likely TPE going from nottingham to liverpool. Cl185 is probably motive power in this case.
for nottingham/derby to norwich I still think quite busy so 3 car 170 would suffice.
It’s not at all set in stone. It’s possible for EMR to retain it, albeit as a stand-alone route split at Nottingham still.
TrainTube
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The Hope Valley isn't in the East Midlands, Derbyshire is a large county that stretches quite far north, the Hope Valley is in the Peak District and borders the Sheffield area and Greater Manchester. Many even regard Chesterfield as being in the North.
The problem with EMR running Liverpool to Nottingham services is that A) The majority of the route runs in the North alongside other franchises in the North, and B) EMR don't have the best rolling stock for the job, unless they would use Bi modes but I highly doubt it.
I'd always heard that it would be TPE class 185s, which having been on between Manchester and Leeds, are much more desirable and comfortable than 158s. Plenty of 185s would be free as well, meaning they can operate as 6 cars.
After all, the Hope valley line is at the southern end of the Pennines, meaning TPE would suit the route.
Killingworth
Established Member
There's no ideal solution with the various types of unit likely to be available.
The splitting idea has been kicking around for years. What reason is there for delaying the actual change? Availability of 185s was one reason. Completion of Hope Valley Scheme another. I85s should be available within a year. Hope Valley will be another 4 years.
It's surely time for a decision to be made. The sword of Damocles over the route has been hanging for too long. Is there a good reason for not announcing a name and date? It may not be before the end of the TPE franchise at the current rate of progress.
daodao
Established Member
Boundaries are to an extent arbitrary, and not always logical, but they are needed when breaking up an area into smaller units from an administrative perspective. The Hope Valley is by this definition in the East Midlands.
The East Midlands franchise should be running the services not only from Sheffield to Nottingham/Derby/London, but also from Sheffield to Manchester, Worksop/Lincoln and Scunthorpe/Cleethorpes. It should also be assigned the Cambridge-Leicester-Birmingham route.
Northern should be assigned all the Transpennine services via Standedge and Hebden Bridge.
Llandudno
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Be careful what you wish for...
There are currently three operators competing between Sheffield and Manchester offering a range of relatively good value tickets at off peak times....
There are currently three operators competing between Sheffield and Manchester offering a range of relatively good value tickets at off peak times....
daodao
Established Member
Local and inter-regional services in the English midlands and north are basket cases (compared to the IC services to/from London) and less taxpayers' money will be wasted if there aren't an excessive number of operators. For example, on the Sheffield-M/c route, 1 fast tph would suffice on Mon-Sat evenings (after 1900), before 0900 on Saturdays and outside the period 1600-1900 on Sundays, but that can't be achieved when there are 2 operators. Other than for trips into city centres, no one uses these relatively unreliable services with the shoddiest rolling stock unless they have no alternative. I have only used the Manchester-Chester service, a typical Northern service, once in the 4.5 years I have been living at my current address, and even then, I was delayed by 34 minutes as my return train was cancelled.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Despite this uncertainty the length of the EMT service was doubled a few years ago, increasing fast capacity by around 40%, which is more improvement than a lot of routes have seen.
Glossop is also in Derbyshire. Would you expect EMR to run a shuttle service to Broadbottom?
Like Glossop the Hope Valley is in the Manchester commuter area (it is effectively an extension of the Marple line service group), and it is also in the Sheffield commuter area. So it makes sense operationally and commercially to link it with the other services serving those places and who has a relationship with the local authorities that primarily co-ordinate them.
A date (Dec 2021) has already been announced. The reason for delaying it until then has been stated too - it should coincide with improvements in Lincolnshire (hourly to Grimsby, hourly Joint Line etc.) to compensate for the significant potential loss of work for Nottingham depot. I wouldn’t be surprised if the date slips further, as it has for the Barton branch transfer.
daodao
Established Member
It has been recognised from various angles (not just public transport provision, but also healthcare and other services), that due to geographical factors, the Glossop area needs to be considered part of Greater Manchester for operational purposes.
The Hope Valley is most certainly not within the M/c commuter zone, although it is in the Sheffield commuter zone. It is only since the demise of Chinley as a major station that local services formerly terminating there have been linked.
Llandudno
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Presumably you have very rarely travelled on the different services between Sheffield and Manchester, despite the poor time keeping on this route, even at off peak times there are regularly standing passengers.
Imagine how much more popular they would be with increased capacity, better trains and a reliable clock face timetable.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
There have been discussions here about commuting from Dore to Manchester and I can think of at least two people who formerly commuted from that end of the line into Manchester. Perhaps more significantly the Sheffield drops into the service pattern west of New Mills (not sure if it interworks at Piccadilly) and giving it to a different operator would make this more difficult.
The Chinley situation was to do with the Sheffield line still being treated as a branch, even after closure of the main line via Bakewell. The first time I used this line in the mid-70s you had to change at New Mills for Edale or Hope, as the Manchester trains formerly went to Hayfield. Seemingly that part of BR at the time was unable even to rationalise the timetable to provide through service on the lines that still existed.
It is very definitely in the Manchester commuting zone and Dore and Totley in particular as a suburb of Sheffield loads significant numbers of passengers for Manchester. That is why the morning and evening peak EMR and TPE trains call there to cater for that flow and many of those passengers are season ticket holders. Chinley is also a very busy railhead.
Killingworth
Established Member
Er, not quite true. The Hope Valley line carries commuters in both directions, members of the same family going in opposite directions. A recent commuter survey at Dore & Totley (in Sheffield) showed 44% going to Manchester and only 22% going to Sheffield.
Manchester is indeed the Northern hub.
daodao
Established Member
The Hope valley refers to the area of Derbyshire between Edale/Castleton and Grindleford. Dore is not in the Hope Valley but in Sheffield and thus in Yorkshire. There is clearly now some commuting from South Sheffield to M/c, probably almost all by rail as the roads are so bad, but this station is not in the Hope Valley. The rail services from Dore to Sheffield are very limited and not optimal for commuting in that direction. Obliteration of all but 1 platform at this station has made it impossible for additional services running to Dronfield and beyond to stop at Dore as well, without major reconstruction of the Midland main line at this point.
There has been some commuting from Chinley to M/c since the M/c South District line opened, and the route via Chinley once formed an alternative commuter route from Buxton to M/c, but this station is on the western side of the watershed and not in the Hope valley.
Killingworth
Established Member
My observations from trains picking up and dropping off is that quite a lot are commuting from Chinley into Manchester.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Grindleford, Hathersage and Bamford aren't in the Hope Valley, they are in the Derwent Valley. The Hope Valley route follows a classic railway tradition of being named after only a small part of the territory it passes through. The most extreme example is the West Coast Main Line, which is in sight of the coast for about five minutes between London and Glasgow.
Dore is not in the Hope Valley and is not in Derbyshire but is served by Hope Valley services. By your logic of a few posts back EMR should therefore be running a shuttle between Strines (fortuitously right on the GM-Derbyshire boundary) and a new station in Totley Tunnel, where they can change for Northern services to Manchester and Sheffield respectively.
Whether Hope Valley commuters go to Sheffield or Manchester, Northern is the main commuter operator for both cities so should run the service between them.
daodao
Established Member
The Hope valley is a misnomer (the actual rivers are the Noe and Derwent), but has become the accustomed name for the area of Derbyshire between Edale/Castleton and Grindleford (and probably as far as Calver).
My long-term view about the services running south-east from M/c Piccadilly is as follows:
- convert the lines to Rose Hill via Bredbury and to Glossop/Hadfield to Metrolink, each every 12 minutes, running on a separate street alignment from Ashbury's to the eastern portal of the Metrolink Piccadilly underground station tunnel. These would link with the services from Bury and Altrincham currently terminating at Piccadilly, so no additional city centre capacity would be needed on Metrolink.
- run local services (2 tph) non stop to Guide Bridge and then via Hyde to Chinley, with alternate services extending via the Hope Valley to Sheffield or to a re-opened Chapel Central station.
- run express trains (2 tph) via Stockport to Sheffield and then alternately to Cleethorpes (via Doncaster) and Lincoln (calling at Worksop and then all stations). One of these trains would start at Liverpool and the other at M/c Airport. At peak hours M-F in both directions, some of these trains should call at Dore and Chinley.
- run express trains (1 tph) via Stockport to Nottingham, calling at Chinley, Chesterfield, Alfreton, Langley Mill and Ilkeston, with selected trains extending to East Anglia.
TrainTube
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The Hope Valley is in Derbyshire, but the very north and is closer to Sheffield and Greater Manchester than Derbyshire, both of which are NOT in the East Midlands. The reason EMT /EMR run to Sheffield is that the Main Line is predominantly in the East Midlands, Sheffield itself is in South Yorkshire.
Whilst I agree that there is an argument for EMT to take over Worksop to Lincoln services, there is no reason why EM should take over Stansted to Birmingham and Sheffield to Scunthorpe, Cleethorpes or Manchester services. The Counties that are in the East Midlands are Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Northamptonshire, Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire (EXCEPT North and North East Lincolnshire). The Sheffield to Scunthorpe and Cleethorpes services are routed through South Yorkshire, and North/North East Lincolnshire, none of which is in the East Midlands. Likewise the Sheffield to Manchester route should not be East Midlands, as only a short section is in Derbyshire, and is not really in the Midland. The Stansted to Birmingham route has every right to be Crosscountry, as it runs in several regions. It seems you are quite biased and in favour of East Midlands?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
And the Hope Valley line has become the accustomed name for something slightly different.
I could support most of that except for the suggestion that EMR operates it. The Hope Valley links two of the main centres of the North and should be run by TOCs under TfN control rather than the distant rule of DfT. It was defensible for EMT to run the Liverpool service given its links to the East Midlands but after the split the Nottingham-Liverpool is also nearly all about the north (Northern runs the rest of the Nottingham-Sheffield service too).
At the end of the day the railway is there to carry people from one region to another, so unless you make everyone change at the boundary there are bound to be ragged edges where regional TOCs collide. Trying to neaten it up in theory just creates a mess in the real world.
Killingworth
Established Member
Just for the record, in 1872 Dore & Totley station was opened in then almost open country to serve the village of Dore and the hamlet of Totley, both a mile or more away. It was in Derbyshire, but only just as the Limb Brook formed the boundary and the stationmaster's house was next to the brook. Along with other parts along Sheffield's current southern boundary it was absorbed into the city in 1934. The new Ward in Sheffield was named Dore & Totley. (Dore & Totley Golf Club was also named after the station, although the fairways are directly above Bradway Tunnel and in Derbyshire.) Bradway is nearer the station as the crow flies but as distant by road.
Commuters from both Dore & Totley and Chinley also use trains of TPE and East Midlands to commute into Manchester - although users at Chinley were incensed to lose the TPE trains recently as that has reduced their valued links into Stockport. Some Hope and district residents would love a fast train to stop there to assist their commuting in both directions - and also social visits. For sports and entertainment Manchester is possibly a greater draw than Sheffield.
The original Dore & Chinley Railway company failed and the plans for the 20 mile line were taken over and completed by the Midland Railway, totally in Derbyshire.
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Killingworth
Established Member
Anyway, returning to splitting. That's what the DfT want. They've said they'd prefer this poisoned chalice to be operated by Northern or TPE, but with EMR as fall back. Presumably some sort of bid has to be made.I've heard a DfT employee close to franchising say they'd prefer first class and catering to be offered, although that was a couple of years ago.
There have been no hints of Northern taking an interest. Why would they when they've plenty of challenges to operate the routes they've got? In their position if I had to submit a bid it would be so high or in such terms that I'd expect it to fail - or make a very good return for the trouble. They know all about the issues operating out of Liverpool through Manchester.
2 years ago noises coming out of TPE suggested almost an assumption they'd be getting it. No longer. Have they also decided this route is not one they'd want on the terms and at the likely price expected? They too might submit a bid so high they'd expect it to be rejected. They too know the difficulties of operating through Manchester.
I've previously noted a comment made at an EMT stakeholder meeting maybe 2 years ago when we were told that 25% of their delays were attributable to their Liverpool - Norwich route. They certainly know the problems only too well. We don't know the terms they're being offered to continue the service split or not split. In their shoes I'd want a very healthy sum to continue operating the western half. I'd also be seeking some very strong assurances that issues contributing to the delays can be resolved, and get them written into any contract.
In the DfTs position I'd see we had a problem. It's going to be expensive whoever takes it. Kick it down the road. What can we hang the delay on? Delayed new rolling stock. Delayed infrastructure, Hope Valley, NW electrification, Piccadilly 15/16?. Williams Review. HS2 review. Change of government. Brexit. Many of the difficulties of operating are not able to be changed significantly for 3-5 years, if ever.
It looks like EMR could be running this service for some time. However, more 185s will soon be available. Who's getting them and for what?
There have been no hints of Northern taking an interest. Why would they when they've plenty of challenges to operate the routes they've got? In their position if I had to submit a bid it would be so high or in such terms that I'd expect it to fail - or make a very good return for the trouble. They know all about the issues operating out of Liverpool through Manchester.
2 years ago noises coming out of TPE suggested almost an assumption they'd be getting it. No longer. Have they also decided this route is not one they'd want on the terms and at the likely price expected? They too might submit a bid so high they'd expect it to be rejected. They too know the difficulties of operating through Manchester.
I've previously noted a comment made at an EMT stakeholder meeting maybe 2 years ago when we were told that 25% of their delays were attributable to their Liverpool - Norwich route. They certainly know the problems only too well. We don't know the terms they're being offered to continue the service split or not split. In their shoes I'd want a very healthy sum to continue operating the western half. I'd also be seeking some very strong assurances that issues contributing to the delays can be resolved, and get them written into any contract.
In the DfTs position I'd see we had a problem. It's going to be expensive whoever takes it. Kick it down the road. What can we hang the delay on? Delayed new rolling stock. Delayed infrastructure, Hope Valley, NW electrification, Piccadilly 15/16?. Williams Review. HS2 review. Change of government. Brexit. Many of the difficulties of operating are not able to be changed significantly for 3-5 years, if ever.
It looks like EMR could be running this service for some time. However, more 185s will soon be available. Who's getting them and for what?
The line serves more passengers per year than London to Manchester, and the fares aren't especially cheap. With the passenger numbers heavily weighted to the western portion, it is obvious (half) the reason why dft entertained the split: a massive service reduction for the eastern portion.
TPE may well feel they get enough revenue as is, but despite its trundling and circuitous route it isn't a.basket case by any stretch.
TPE may well feel they get enough revenue as is, but despite its trundling and circuitous route it isn't a.basket case by any stretch.
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