Jorge Da Silva
Established Member
Should have been done in around 2006 or latest 2012. My experience is that they are extremely overcrowded and often end up packed with no seats available.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham
- Thread starter Chester1
- Start date
- Status
Should have been done in around 2006 or latest 2012. My experience is that they are extremely overcrowded and often end up packed with no seats available.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Haha, someone may have been a bit premature then! Although had the new trains been in by now, I'm sure it would have been a 6 coach service from May timetable.
It is indeed the intention that a unit will detach at Piccadilly (and thus reattach on the 1619), but I'm not sure which way round it will be yet. Logic would dictate the rear unit will be going to the Airport, but we have had diagrammed splits in the past where the rear unit has gone to Ardwick before the front then departs for the Airport (they didn't last long)!
Yes, it will accommodate 4 coaches of a 6 coach train. I *think* it is intended that all services will call at Habrough from December, thanks to C-ASDO (automatic selective door operation).
Apologies for maybe taking this thread a little off topic!
Last edited:
Killingworth
Established Member
We'd heard 2018 but it didn't happen. Never mind, better late than never, although those later evening trains will have a lot of spare space.
Cool, thank you for the information! Now "all" we need is for the new trains to come into service...
Jorge Da Silva
Established Member
Ok. That makes sense. Did not know they were planning to stop all services at Habrough. Currently it is one train every two hours so I am sure it will be a welcomed improvement to the current level of service.
Killingworth
Established Member
However, this thread is about Norwich - Liverpool being split at Nottingham, so Cleethorpes and Manchester Airport are off limits.
Except insofar as for about the last 2-3 years TPE have been giving the impression they'll be using their spare 185s for Liverpool-Nottingham as soon as they're available. During all that time Northern have given no indications as to being at all interested in the service. In their current situation why would they want to take on another headache?
The thing that must be frustrating TPE is that the DfT and TfN could come out openly and say this so planning can be finalised for a known target date, but they don't. It could happen as early as the December 2019 review, May 2020 or December 2020 at the latest, so why not say so?
TPE can provide back up by flexibly using the 185 fleet, detaching a unit at the Airport, Piccadilly, Sheffield or elsewhere as required.
Once that's resolved the 3rd fast service between Sheffield and Manchester can be planned. That includes it's start and finish points and route between Chinley and Piccadilly, probably operated as a Northern Connect service from late 2022 or early 2023.
Except insofar as for about the last 2-3 years TPE have been giving the impression they'll be using their spare 185s for Liverpool-Nottingham as soon as they're available. During all that time Northern have given no indications as to being at all interested in the service. In their current situation why would they want to take on another headache?
The thing that must be frustrating TPE is that the DfT and TfN could come out openly and say this so planning can be finalised for a known target date, but they don't. It could happen as early as the December 2019 review, May 2020 or December 2020 at the latest, so why not say so?
TPE can provide back up by flexibly using the 185 fleet, detaching a unit at the Airport, Piccadilly, Sheffield or elsewhere as required.
Once that's resolved the 3rd fast service between Sheffield and Manchester can be planned. That includes it's start and finish points and route between Chinley and Piccadilly, probably operated as a Northern Connect service from late 2022 or early 2023.
December 2021 I believe.
Killingworth
Established Member
Not sure which event December 2021 refers to, Liverpool - Nottingham? If so that's putting it off longer than necessary.
The third service is unlikely until December 2022, or even into 2023, depending on progress with the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme. December 2021 is the very earliest it could possibly be, but Network Rail aren't suggesting before December 2021. They've been caught out too often with over optimistic projections. Major earthworks should start in spring and there's almost certainly insufficient time to get everything up and ready to start in 2020.
Yes, Liverpool Nottingham. Depends what your view of necessary is really, as a potentially redundant member of traincrew I'm quite happy to wait for them to sort out my replacement gainful employment which as per the East Mids tender document is the reason for the timings.
frodshamfella
Established Member
Dear god no, I travel from Liverpool to Sheffield and Norwich with luggage, I don't want to have to change at Manchester .
Qwerty133
Established Member
Well if TPE have surplus stock from December while EMT are facing mass withdrawals and no spare stock I would consider it to be neccessary to make the switch sooner rather than later. If that includes the hire of EMT train crews for an initial period that would still make more sense than to have 185s sat in sidings while EMT services previously worked by 153s are cancelled en mass.
I don't think it's going to come to that somehow.
TPE will not have sufficient spare stock in December. The decision to prioritise increased layovers at Manchester Airport means that only Liverpool-Scarborough and Liverpool-Newcastle can use the Mark Vs and 802s prior to the December timetable change. That means they knew that knew at the start of this year they would not have significantly more than the (very) approximately 14 units + spares required to run these two services until at least December. They have commitments to boost their existing South TPE service and they will need some 185s to run the initial Liverpool-Glasgow services until sufficient 397s have arrived to replace the 350s and provide additional units. It doesn't appear likely they would have another 12+ spare for Liverpool-Nottingham.
Jamesrob637
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Aug 2016
- Messages
- 5,245
06:26 Cleethorpes-Airport was 3-car last week
Gentle reminder that this thread is about Liverpool - Norwich being split not Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes so lets try and stay on topic. If there is overlap that's fine but any comment regarding the current TPE service must be very clear in why it's relevant to the topic of Liverpool - Norwich.
Jorge Da Silva
Established Member
I’ll create a separate thread.
Jorge Da Silva
Established Member
Please discuss Manchester to Cleethorpes service here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tpe-manchester-airport-to-cleethorpes-service.183482/
grumpyoldman01
Member
Any public domain information available yet as to if/when the service will be split, and - if it is - will TPE definitely operate it north of Nottingham using 185s?
No info out there internally or in the public domain as far as I know. Abellio's position can be summed up as 'who knows what is happening, we don't!'
Killingworth
Established Member
It is still being assumed to be a transfer to TPE 185s in December 2021. However it would make sense to do it earlier if 185s are available, but I suspect that couldn't be before December 2020.
Completion of the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme may have been the intended trigger and that could still happen by December 2021, but Network Rail's public statements talk about December 2022 for completion. It's being phased about now and it depends on whether heavy earthworks start next spring or in 2021 to be completed over the summer period. There's probably not enough time for a 2020 start, but there might be.
Northern haven't given any hints of interest in this. They may well come into the frame for the extra hourly Sheffield-Manchester service, assuming paths can be found at the Manchester end for any more services by any operator. Will they have the stock anyway - but that's not for this thread.
Completion of the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme may have been the intended trigger and that could still happen by December 2021, but Network Rail's public statements talk about December 2022 for completion. It's being phased about now and it depends on whether heavy earthworks start next spring or in 2021 to be completed over the summer period. There's probably not enough time for a 2020 start, but there might be.
Northern haven't given any hints of interest in this. They may well come into the frame for the extra hourly Sheffield-Manchester service, assuming paths can be found at the Manchester end for any more services by any operator. Will they have the stock anyway - but that's not for this thread.
grumpyoldman01
Member
Article published in yesterday's 'Derby Telegraph' at https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/derby-news/takeover-derby-train-services-lead-3149907 makes no direct reference to the Derby - Norwich service; it mentions an extra train each hour between Derby and Nottingham by December 2021, but not how it will arise.
Note there is also reference to through year-round week-end services between Derby and Skegness; can't remember ever having seen these mentioned anywhere before.
Note there is also reference to through year-round week-end services between Derby and Skegness; can't remember ever having seen these mentioned anywhere before.
Qwerty133
Established Member
Not going to happen as Norwich to Nottingham is remaining with EMR who were always barred from proposing services to or through New Street.
bunnahabhain
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 Jun 2005
- Messages
- 2,070
Correct. Transport for the West Midlands wish to take over the XC 170 operated routes under the West Midlands Rail brand "because they provide key commuter trains into Birmingham".
Well that, and the fact that Norwich-Nottingham-Birmingham would be an hilariously long way around...
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Isn't the plan to add extra commuter services from Moor Street via the proposed curve, which would probably run via Coleshill, serve various new stations and terminate at Tamworth? The XC 170 routes could then be upgraded to more of a regional express service instead of being packed with Birmingham commuters and shoppers for a small part of their journey and sometimes quite empty on the rest of it.
bunnahabhain
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 Jun 2005
- Messages
- 2,070
Not sure, all I know is that's part of the reason why EMR is barred from Birmingham New Street, and the Birmingham to Stansted and Nottingham routes didn't transfer to EMR.
Jozhua
Established Member
- Joined
- 6 Jan 2019
- Messages
- 1,857
Just thinking about trains on this route when another franchise takes it from EMR.
I'd guess either Transpennine Express, or Northern under the "connect" branding.
Come up with some considerations for 185's vs 158's.
I think the 158's could definitely still run the route if issues regarding to luggage capacity are sorted out. Sure this could be resolved by ripping out a row or two of seats and adding in some more luggage racks, should be easy enough? I was also thinking how to upgrade capacity, without going overkill. The current 4 carriage trains seem close to capacity, so add a couple more years of growth and they'll be getting pretty cosy! If Northern was to run it, maybe it would be good for them to refurb a few of their 3-car 158 units into a similar style as the EMT 158's so they can be run together. This would make a 5 car train with a 2-car ex EMT unit and a 3-car Northern unit. Alternatively 6-cars of 158 could be achieved with three two car units, but that might be a bit overkill!
The 185's are strong contenders, been as Transpennine Express will have surplus of them, which would be ideal if they took over the route. They also have larger doors, which would greatly help on Piccadilly 13/14, which gets a bit messy all times of the day! The issues are that they'd need to be run in 6-car formations in order to not downgrade capacity, they drink fuel and they can't use the speed differentials on Hope Valley. They would also have no gangway through the whole train, which obviously poses issues in regards to ticket conductors and catering!
Honestly, I think that the route would be best left with EMR. The competition between EMT, TPE and Northern is something that is rare on our railways and should be cherished! EMT have done a good job running the route, ignoring the Castlefield Corridor delays which are out of their control. Outside of rush hour and short-forms, I find the 158's reasonably good, despite the issues with luggage and door space.
Would be interested to hear everyone else's thoughts or updates in the Liverpool-Nottingham leg!
I'd guess either Transpennine Express, or Northern under the "connect" branding.
Come up with some considerations for 185's vs 158's.
I think the 158's could definitely still run the route if issues regarding to luggage capacity are sorted out. Sure this could be resolved by ripping out a row or two of seats and adding in some more luggage racks, should be easy enough? I was also thinking how to upgrade capacity, without going overkill. The current 4 carriage trains seem close to capacity, so add a couple more years of growth and they'll be getting pretty cosy! If Northern was to run it, maybe it would be good for them to refurb a few of their 3-car 158 units into a similar style as the EMT 158's so they can be run together. This would make a 5 car train with a 2-car ex EMT unit and a 3-car Northern unit. Alternatively 6-cars of 158 could be achieved with three two car units, but that might be a bit overkill!
The 185's are strong contenders, been as Transpennine Express will have surplus of them, which would be ideal if they took over the route. They also have larger doors, which would greatly help on Piccadilly 13/14, which gets a bit messy all times of the day! The issues are that they'd need to be run in 6-car formations in order to not downgrade capacity, they drink fuel and they can't use the speed differentials on Hope Valley. They would also have no gangway through the whole train, which obviously poses issues in regards to ticket conductors and catering!
Honestly, I think that the route would be best left with EMR. The competition between EMT, TPE and Northern is something that is rare on our railways and should be cherished! EMT have done a good job running the route, ignoring the Castlefield Corridor delays which are out of their control. Outside of rush hour and short-forms, I find the 158's reasonably good, despite the issues with luggage and door space.
Would be interested to hear everyone else's thoughts or updates in the Liverpool-Nottingham leg!
The split was strongly opposed in the consultation by both the Liverpool side and the East Anglia side. These objections have been acknowledged to exist, and duly ignored by the DfT. Their intent and sole interest is in reducing the number of operators working across the north.
It doesn't take a genius to work out that non Liverpool northern lobbying has been at play here, with a view to taking control of services.
Agree, the competition is a good thing. Also during industrial action the split between three operators has kept essential links going.
I expect once the route is mapped to TPE, they'll continue their obsession with sending trains to Manchester Airport. One of the comments above says a lot about the messed up priorities. Passengers for a major city can be expected to change trains, but the comparative handful of people traveling to the airport must have a door to door service! Screams at any suggestion of changing trains for that.
It doesn't take a genius to work out that non Liverpool northern lobbying has been at play here, with a view to taking control of services.
Agree, the competition is a good thing. Also during industrial action the split between three operators has kept essential links going.
I expect once the route is mapped to TPE, they'll continue their obsession with sending trains to Manchester Airport. One of the comments above says a lot about the messed up priorities. Passengers for a major city can be expected to change trains, but the comparative handful of people traveling to the airport must have a door to door service! Screams at any suggestion of changing trains for that.
Killingworth
Established Member
The core of this leg is Sheffield-Piccadilly. That forms part of 3 tph with Northern and TPE.
Yes, if offers choice, but that is a mixed blessing at present. East Midlands in particular can be very late due to knock on delays from almost anywhere.
TPE are the only one to offer first class so take up isn't as high as it would be if there were 2 tph to choose from.
185s are less flexible regarding train length and walk through capability.
Ideally the route should be worked by walk through units that can accelerate quickly yet are light enough to use the present tracks.
All units can be overcrowded at peak hours and luggage can jam doorways. Bikes are also an issue, but provision of more carriages by all operators will help.
Any thoughts that remapping would coincide with availability of improved capacity through Dore with the addition of a 3rd fast train should be aware that is unlikely before late 2023 if not into 2024.
Yes, if offers choice, but that is a mixed blessing at present. East Midlands in particular can be very late due to knock on delays from almost anywhere.
TPE are the only one to offer first class so take up isn't as high as it would be if there were 2 tph to choose from.
185s are less flexible regarding train length and walk through capability.
Ideally the route should be worked by walk through units that can accelerate quickly yet are light enough to use the present tracks.
All units can be overcrowded at peak hours and luggage can jam doorways. Bikes are also an issue, but provision of more carriages by all operators will help.
Any thoughts that remapping would coincide with availability of improved capacity through Dore with the addition of a 3rd fast train should be aware that is unlikely before late 2023 if not into 2024.
- Status