Jorge Da Silva
Established Member
Good. Should have been the case by 2000, not 2020.
Should have been done in around 2006 or latest 2012. My experience is that they are extremely overcrowded and often end up packed with no seats available.
Good. Should have been the case by 2000, not 2020.
Since the timetable change the announcements at Sheffield for the 0808 to Manchester (which is the 0626 Cleethorpes-Airport) have been saying that this service will split at Piccadilly, with part of the train terminating at Piccadilly and part of it continuing to the Airport. Since it's still been a 3 coach 185 I assume this hasn't actually happened (though I've not actually stuck around to check) but between that and the phrasing of your post, I take it that is the plan when they do go to 6 coaches?
(Amusingly these announcements have been saying that the *rear* coaches will terminate at Piccadilly, which of course wouldn't work at all...)
Is Habrough capable of taking 6 coaches? Do they fit on the platform?
Good. Should have been the case by 2000, not 2020.
Haha, someone may have been a bit premature then! Although had the new trains been in by now, I'm sure it would have been a 6 coach service from May timetable.
It is indeed the intention that a unit will detach at Piccadilly (and thus reattach on the 1619), but I'm not sure which way round it will be yet. Logic would dictate the rear unit will be going to the Airport, but we have had diagrammed splits in the past where the rear unit has gone to Ardwick before the front then departs for the Airport (they didn't last long)!
Yes, it will accommodate 4 coaches of a 6 coach train. It is intended that all services will call at Habrough from December (I think), if not sooner, thanks to C-ASDO (automatic selective door operation).
However, this thread is about Norwich - Liverpool being split at Nottingham, so Cleethorpes and Manchester Airport are off limits.
Except insofar as for about the last 2-3 years TPE have been giving the impression they'll be using their spare 185s for Liverpool-Nottingham as soon as they're available. During all that time Northern have given no indications as to being at all interested in the service. In their current situation why would they want to take on another headache?
The thing that must be frustrating TPE is that the DfT and TfN could come out openly and say this so planning can be finalised for a known target date, but they don't. It could happen as early as the December 2019 review, May 2020 or December 2020 at the latest, so why not say so?
TPE can provide back up by flexibly using the 185 fleet, detaching a unit at the Airport, Piccadilly, Sheffield or elsewhere as required.
Once that's resolved the 3rd fast service between Sheffield and Manchester can be planned. That includes it's start and finish points and route between Chinley and Piccadilly, probably operated as a Northern Connect service from late 2022 or early 2023.
December 2021 I believe.
Not sure which event December 2021 refers to, Liverpool - Nottingham? If so that's putting it off longer than necessary.
The third service is unlikely until December 2022, or even into 2023, depending on progress with the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme. December 2021 is the very earliest it could possibly be, but Network Rail aren't suggesting before December 2021. They've been caught out too often with over optimistic projections. Major earthworks should start in spring and there's almost certainly insufficient time to get everything up and ready to start in 2020.
I think that removing a 2-4 car train from the Castlefield corridor is a good thing. People from Liverpool travelling east can change at Manchester.
That said, Liverpool to Sheffield is a flow worth protecting, so hopefully it can be served. And maybe the future Hope Valley fast could be a Manchester - Norwich....
Well if TPE have surplus stock from December while EMT are facing mass withdrawals and no spare stock I would consider it to be neccessary to make the switch sooner rather than later. If that includes the hire of EMT train crews for an initial period that would still make more sense than to have 185s sat in sidings while EMT services previously worked by 153s are cancelled en mass.Yes, Liverpool Nottingham. Depends what your view of necessary is really, as a potentially redundant member of traincrew I'm quite happy to wait for them to sort out my replacement gainful employment which as per the East Mids tender document is the reason for the timings.
Well if TPE have surplus stock from December while EMT are facing mass withdrawals and no spare stock I would consider it to be neccessary to make the switch sooner rather than later. If that includes the hire of EMT train crews for an initial period that would still make more sense than to have 185s sat in sidings while EMT services previously worked by 153s are cancelled en mass.
Well if TPE have surplus stock from December while EMT are facing mass withdrawals and no spare stock I would consider it to be neccessary to make the switch sooner rather than later. If that includes the hire of EMT train crews for an initial period that would still make more sense than to have 185s sat in sidings while EMT services previously worked by 153s are cancelled en mass.
Since the timetable change the announcements at Sheffield for the 0808 to Manchester (which is the 0626 Cleethorpes-Airport) have been saying that this service will split at Piccadilly, with part of the train terminating at Piccadilly and part of it continuing to the Airport. Since it's still been a 3 coach 185 I assume this hasn't actually happened (though I've not actually stuck around to check) but between that and the phrasing of your post, I take it that is the plan when they do go to 6 coaches?
(Amusingly these announcements have been saying that the *rear* coaches will terminate at Piccadilly, which of course wouldn't work at all...)
Gentle reminder that this thread is about Liverpool - Norwich being split not Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes so lets try and stay on topic. If there is overlap that's fine but any comment regarding the current TPE service must be very clear in why it's relevant to the topic of Liverpool - Norwich.
Any public domain information available yet as to if/when the service will be split, and - if it is - will TPE definitely operate it north of Nottingham using 185s?
Not going to happen as Norwich to Nottingham is remaining with EMR who were always barred from proposing services to or through New Street.Is it due to terminate at Derby instead then? Could a case be made for it to become one of the Nottingham - Cardiffs instead? And provide Norwich-Birmingham through that?
Correct. Transport for the West Midlands wish to take over the XC 170 operated routes under the West Midlands Rail brand "because they provide key commuter trains into Birmingham".Not going to happen as Norwich to Nottingham is remaining with EMR who were always barred from proposing services to or through New Street.
Is it due to terminate at Derby instead then? Could a case be made for it to become one of the Nottingham - Cardiffs instead? And provide Norwich-Birmingham through that?
Not going to happen as Norwich to Nottingham is remaining with EMR who were always barred from proposing services to or through New Street.
Correct. Transport for the West Midlands wish to take over the XC 170 operated routes under the West Midlands Rail brand "because they provide key commuter trains into Birmingham".
Isn't the plan to add extra commuter services from Moor Street via the proposed curve, which would probably run via Coleshill, serve various new stations and terminate at Tamworth? The XC 170 routes could then be upgraded to more of a regional express service instead of being packed with Birmingham commuters and shoppers for a small part of their journey and sometimes quite empty on the rest of it.Correct. Transport for the West Midlands wish to take over the XC 170 operated routes under the West Midlands Rail brand "because they provide key commuter trains into Birmingham".
Not sure, all I know is that's part of the reason why EMR is barred from Birmingham New Street, and the Birmingham to Stansted and Nottingham routes didn't transfer to EMR.Isn't the plan to add extra commuter services from Moor Street via the proposed curve, which would probably run via Coleshill, serve various new stations and terminate at Tamworth? The XC 170 routes could then be upgraded to more of a regional express service instead of being packed with Birmingham commuters and shoppers for a small part of their journey and sometimes quite empty on the rest of it.