Why don’t Network Rail tidy up after themselves?

SteveM70 · 21 Sep 2019

It never ceases to amaze me how much detritus seems to be left behind after engineering works are completed. Lengths of rail, sleepers, all kinds of stuff.

Surely as the guardians of the infrastructure they should set a better example, and it probably contributes to some of the vandalism of items being placed on the track

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BluePenguin · 21 Sep 2019

I completely relate to this. Between Dover and Folkestone there is still lots of debris lying around from the work to repair the sea wall when it collapsed a few years ago. It looks terrible in it’s abandoned state. The new wall is also too high and blocks the view of the sea a little bit.

Peter C · 21 Sep 2019

I don't know a lot about this topic, but maybe they leave this sort of thing for further work or to be taken away at a later date? If NR only have one night to do something, I assume they'll only take stuff away if there is nowhere safe to put it, e.g. London Paddington - where would you keep the stuff from a night's work there, where it wouldn't foul trains?
Sleepers are often (if not always) concrete these days, and a wooden sleeper is jolly heavy, so people trying to move them onto the track probably isn't that big of a concern!
Putting things in the four-foot isn't that big of a deal, I suppose, if the clearance is alright (so rails would be alright, as are shovels and the like).

So essentially, I think they probably just leave it so that it can be taken away at a later date, or maybe be used for later works. It's easier to leave something at the site than move it from site to storage and back every time you need to work on something!

-Peter

Trainfan2019 · 21 Sep 2019

I've seen all sorts of items left behind at track side. Lengths of rusty rails, ballast bags - empty or full etc. Why?

Peter C · 21 Sep 2019

Trainfan2019 said:
I've seen all sorts of items left behind at track side. Lengths of rusty rails, ballast bags - empty or full etc. Why?

See my above post - it may be because they'll be taken away at a later date?

-Peter

Darandio · 21 Sep 2019

Trainfan2019 said:
I've seen all sorts of items left behind at track side. Lengths of rusty rails, ballast bags - empty or full etc. Why?

One reason is time. A worksite possession is only so long and there simply isn't time to take it all away before the line is reopened.

DarloRich · 21 Sep 2019

SteveM70 said:
It never ceases to amaze me how much detritus seems to be left behind after engineering works are completed. Lengths of rail, sleepers, all kinds of stuff.

Surely as the guardians of the infrastructure they should set a better example, and it probably contributes to some of the vandalism of items being placed on the track

Trainfan2019 said:
I've seen all sorts of items left behind at track side. Lengths of rusty rails, ballast bags - empty or full etc. Why?

Evilitude, laziness and a desire to extract the urine is the reason you want so there you go.

I dount you care why or about any of the challenges encountered in delivering lots of work in a tight time frame

DarloRich · 21 Sep 2019

Peter C said:
I don't know a lot about this topic, but maybe they leave this sort of thing for further work or to be taken away at a later date? If NR only have one night to do something, I assume they'll only take stuff away if there is nowhere safe to put it, e.g. London Paddington - where would you keep the stuff from a night's work there, where it wouldn't foul trains?
Sleepers are often (if not always) concrete these days, and a wooden sleeper is jolly heavy, so people trying to move them onto the track probably isn't that big of a concern!
Putting things in the four-foot isn't that big of a deal, I suppose, if the clearance is alright (so rails would be alright, as are shovels and the like).

So essentially, I think they probably just leave it so that it can be taken away at a later date, or maybe be used for later works. It's easier to leave something at the site than move it from site to storage and back every time you need to work on something!

-Peter

Where would you keep stuff? In the depot if need be. Storage isnt the issue. Time often is.

I wonder how many of you would be happy with lines closed because 1 x 5 foot length of scrap rail was awaiting collection!

Peter C · 21 Sep 2019

DarloRich said:
Where would you keep stuff? In the depot if need be. Storage isnt the issue. Time often is.

I wonder how many of you would be happy with lines closed because 1 x 5 foot length of scrap rail was awaiting collection!

Fair point. I'm all for NR leaving things in safe places if it means the trains can keep running.

-Peter

DarloRich · 21 Sep 2019

Peter C said:
Fair point. I'm all for NR leaving things in safe places if it means the trains can keep running.

-Peter

Available time is the real killer. What is going to get cut when things get tight? The scrap can be collected later. Rebuilding the track cant be.

The secondary issue is acess and resources to get back to site. The next chance may be a long way off.

Peter C · 21 Sep 2019

DarloRich said:
Available time is the real killer. What is going to get cut when things get tight? The scrap can be collected later. Rebuilding the track cant be.

The secondary issue is acess and resources to get back to site. The next chance may be a long way off.

Definitely. On smaller lines (like the Cotswold Line), they may be able to have longer access times, but on lines such as the GWML, that's not going to happen. The Cotswold Line was actually shut between Moreton and Worcester for a weekend or so in November last year - not going to happen on any other bigger lines, I'd say!

-Peter

BluePenguin · 21 Sep 2019

DarloRich said:
Evilitude, laziness and a desire to extract the urine is the reason you want so there you go.

I dount you care why or about any of the challenges encountered in delivering lots of work in a tight time frame

That is all well and goo, however how about the challenges in removing anything left over, whenever it is practical to afterwards?

SteveM70 · 21 Sep 2019

DarloRich said:
Evilitude, laziness and a desire to extract the urine is the reason you want so there you go.

I dount you care why or about any of the challenges encountered in delivering lots of work in a tight time frame

I asked a question because I wanted to know the answer, and because it seemed to me that one of the risks of what seems to happen is increased opportunity for vandalism and/or damage to trains and/or people

I’m not sure why you felt it was necessary to try and - wrongly - second guess my reasons for asking and presume the answer I wanted.

XCTurbostar · 21 Sep 2019

The true answer to this is that they don’t need to. It’s an operational railway. You can still operate trains with slack rail in the middle or ballast on the side..

richieb1971 · 21 Sep 2019

In Kempston there are lengths of track on verge since about 2013 on the Marston Vale. So many weeds have grown its become part of the landscape. I have no concern for it, just adding the comment to state that it's been there a while.

DarloRich · 21 Sep 2019

SteveM70 said:
I asked a question because I wanted to know the answer, and because it seemed to me that one of the risks of what seems to happen is increased opportunity for vandalism and/or damage to trains and/or people

I’m not sure why you felt it was necessary to try and - wrongly - second guess my reasons for asking and presume the answer I wanted.

You didn't ask a question. You made a statement. I gave you the answer that statement deserved. What question are you trying to ask?

SteveM70 · 21 Sep 2019

DarloRich said:
You didn't ask a question. You made a statement. I gave you the answer that statement deserved. What question are you trying to ask?

Have another read. The title of the thread is a question. But for what it’s worth I’m baffled why you choose to take such an antagonistic approach.

theageofthetra · 22 Sep 2019

XCTurbostar said:
The true answer to this is that they don’t need to. It’s an operational railway. You can still operate trains with slack rail in the middle or ballast on the side..

And in the event of a train evacuation? Or if the driver needs to get between two units with no corridor connection to reset a pass com and finds the cess full of contractors debris leaving no safe walking route?

Eccles1983 · 22 Sep 2019

theageofthetra said:
And in the event of a train evacuation? Or if the driver needs to get between two units with no corridor connection to reset a pass com and finds the cess full of contractors debris leaving no safe walking route?

Then the driver gets a line blockage and uses the other side.

Just like they would on a viaduct/tunnel.

Elecman · 22 Sep 2019

theageofthetra said:
And in the event of a train evacuation? Or if the driver needs to get between two units with no corridor connection to reset a pass com and finds the cess full of contractors debris leaving no safe walking route?

As he is walking beside his train they are perfectly safe no waste. Is left that will completely obstruct that access

Horizon22 · 22 Sep 2019

I think this is more a perception issue than an operational one. As others have stated, the main concern is time for the actual teams on site - they've got fairly short-term deadlines so its probably of no concern to them once the deadline is completed as long as its left in a safe space. However, there doesn't seem to be some a coordinated approach to actually collect this hence material being left for years which does seem a shame.

The image though is arguably that it makes the railway look more disorganised and dirty which is hard to ignore, but it probably isn't a priority in the grand scheme of things.

GB · 22 Sep 2019

SteveM70 said:
Have another read. The title of the thread is a question. But for what it’s worth I’m baffled why you choose to take such an antagonistic approach.

Perhaps it was your comment about Network Rail setting a better example without knowing the reasons why they do the things they do in the first place?

Trainfan2019 · 22 Sep 2019

DarloRich said:
Evilitude, laziness and a desire to extract the urine is the reason you want so there you go.

I dount you care why or about any of the challenges encountered in delivering lots of work in a tight time frame

I only asked a question as did the original poster on this thread.

DarloRich · 22 Sep 2019

Trainfan2019 said:
I only asked a question as did the original poster on this thread.

I stand by my response.

Horizon22 said:
However, there doesn't seem to be some a coordinated approach to actually collect this hence material being left for years which does seem a shame.

....... and in travel news the West Cast Main line is shut this morning to allow for 3 lengths of scrap rail to be collected...............

How do we think that will play?

Ships · 22 Sep 2019

The answer isn't necessary straight forward.

If you see strings of rail in the 4ft/cess then they have probably been dropped for a future renewal, or have been left from a cancelled renewal. Rail will be left in place so work can be replanned. If the renewal in not replanned the rail is left behind for the maintainer as the long rail train is generally booked up dropping rail and is unable to pick it up.

There are instances where CEN60 rail is dropped for a renewal which fails and the current sleepers are pandrol the rail is unable to be reused and it can sit for a long time as it can't be used.

If the renewal takes place then they must clear the site of scrap. However if the renewal fails or is cancelled before the night they don't seem to have to recover the rail.

Concrete and wood sleepers tend to come on the night on engineering trains, steels are often run out prior. However all sleepers must be properly stored and banded.

For the maintainer some instances materials left out are strategic spares. However they don't have the same contractual obligation to tidy as the capital deliverers have (although depending on their senior management they may be driven to be tidy). Things like tonne bags of ballast are often left in places where there are reoccurring wet beds where new ballast need to be put down after they're dug out.

There are lots of materials out there from old projects (Manchester to Stockport there are g44 sleepers dating from WCRM days stacked in the cess). These tend to stick around as there's only the maintainer to tidy up, and they're busy maintaining!

As has been mentioned before access can mean that stuff left over from renewals can be left after the core works until a follow up shift can get in an remove them.

boing_uk · 22 Sep 2019

When there are materials left there for years it does seem to show the waste of money that the railway can sometimes be.

At Poulton le Fylde there were full 1t bags of ballast there for YEARS, slowly being eaten by the undergrowth from the embankment.

When the railways are begging for investment, it’s a bit of a slap in the public’s face to see expensive materials wasted at the lineside for years.

Darandio · 22 Sep 2019

boing_uk said:
When there are materials left there for years it does seem to show the waste of money that the railway can sometimes be.

At Poulton le Fylde there were full 1t bags of ballast there for YEARS, slowly being eaten by the undergrowth from the embankment.

When the railways are begging for investment, it’s a bit of a slap in the public’s face to see expensive materials wasted at the lineside for years.

How many though, they are worth nothing in the grand scheme of things, tens of pounds. It's going to cost more to come back in and remove them.

boing_uk · 22 Sep 2019

Public perception though; a pile of £50 bags of ballast going to waste is still material going to waste when the railways are clamouring about money and ticket prices are constantly rising...

PeterC · 22 Sep 2019

Darandio said:
How many though, they are worth nothing in the grand scheme of things, tens of pounds. It's going to cost more to come back in and remove them.

I can see the issue over perception. The press and public get more worked up over trivia like free biscuits than over major waste.

DarloRich · 22 Sep 2019

boing_uk said:
At Poulton le Fylde there were full 1t bags of ballast there for YEARS, slowly being eaten by the undergrowth from the embankment.

could you explain how someone should pick them up and when? Are you going to close the railway line to do that?

And, lease, don't say they shouldn't have been left there

Why don’t Network Rail tidy up after themselves?

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